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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2019 11:26:50 GMT
Bollox Oli as regards belt drives! In my case, the 'platter' was 35kg sitting on a very hard close tolerance inverted bearing totally resistant to wear! ABSOLUTELY NO WOW AT ALL!!!!! The motor was set up to maintain rotation and no more (shades of Linn Lingo) and the belt was silicon so permanent-stretch free! Nobody in the UK buys these decks though as they're too fugly and heavy for LP12 fans and far too cheap and badly finished for lovers of twenty grand plus oil rigs... The graphite platter mated with the vinyl better than typical 'mats' too and you could pound a playing record with your fist and all that came though the speakers was a very muted faint 'thud.' Technically, the SP10 used to be as good as it got, but get the plinth wrong and it all went out the window... While I'm in strict teacher mode, forget effin' Garrard 301's and 401's, they ALL rumble and add so much of their own character, even if 'we' love the sound coming out. Well it's not bollocks is it Dave, as the measurements of various TTs will back up that usually, quartz locked DD will usually be better. As for the plinth, well again that's total nonsense too. Technics suggested that the motor didn't even need a plinth so I fail to see how any plinth thereafter would affect the wow and flutter performance, which is what I was talking about. |
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Post by macca on Sept 12, 2019 12:13:28 GMT
Plinth will not affect the speed accuracy in the slightest. Plinth is only related to suppression of vibration and noise aka 'rumble'.
Many years ago there were some pretty exhaustive tests of the speed accuracy of various decks on PFM. IIRC it was a belt drive that came out on top although it was highly user-modified. However unless you want to effectively build your own deck or spend a shedload of money the upshot of it all was that a Technics SL1200 Mk2 is very good at going around at the right speed and an SP10 is a bit better again.
Plenty of belt drives at £5K plus that are not able to consistently rotate at the correct speed. Which is a mockery of course but given there are so many out there who think specs and measurements are meaningless and do not relate to what they hear, the market for such expensive tat remains reassuringly strong.
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Post by dsjr on Sept 12, 2019 12:43:32 GMT
We need review test links to confirm all the subjective stuff we come out with. The only one of Tom Fletcher's decks to be measured was the original sprung Dias model which would kind of equate to a Spacedeck or Space 294? in terms of mass now possibly. He soon ditched the spring suspension in the mid 80's and the mid price mopdel became the Omega Point.
I'll have you know that Technics decks used to be so sensitive to feedback they used to measure the rumble levels with the decks suspended on cotton threads from the ceiling, so poor was the vibration isolation!
As for SP10 plinths, you needed to have been around and listening at the time, forty years ago, when the beeb were buying loads (and talking to us about them at KJ) and just before the LP12 swept all before it in Uk domestic circles...
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Post by macca on Sept 12, 2019 13:28:00 GMT
The SL1210/1200 rubberized compound is actually pretty good at absorbing vibration so not sure which Technics decks you're talking about? Pretty much all the other Technics decks are inferior to the SL1200 in every regard, although they do inevitably have their fans.
Problem with any deck is that the cartridge is so sensitive there is no way it can be isolated entirely from external or internal vibration, it will pick up the tiniest amounts of vibration, even from traffic on a road hundreds of yards away. There's just no solution to that.
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Post by dsjr on Sept 12, 2019 15:37:22 GMT
I'd treat any technics old and new, the same as a Rega, taking the lid off completely when in use and being careful to isolate the structure, rubbery damping or not. I mean, 'you lot' who own SL1210mk2> models go on about the platter ringing, yet there's a rubbery compound on the back if them I gather and of course the mat is perfect at damping any remaining noises it generates (the latest ones with motors set out like my Dual 701, may well be different).
I haven't checked, but any more info on the sub £1k techie?
The SL1500/150's I've had through here are incredibly siting sensitive (my SL110 was effin' awful as was the original 1200/120) and using the things with lid on kills the sound completely. the replacement models had sprung under-trays and were much better and the first quartz-locked replacements again a couple of years later I seem to recall were massier and also the armed versions had a similar sub-tray suspended from the top. I can't remember how many generations on from this the infamous 1210 series started but by this time, it was almost ignored in HiFi shops until th elate 90's when ken kessler tried a flashy gold one and was brought up very short. In 2001, this gold model was only £579 or so in Superfi I remember...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2019 15:39:42 GMT
We need review test links to confirm all the subjective stuff we come out with. The only one of Tom Fletcher's decks to be measured was the original sprung Dias model which would kind of equate to a Spacedeck or Space 294? in terms of mass now possibly. He soon ditched the spring suspension in the mid 80's and the mid price mopdel became the Omega Point. I'll have you know that Technics decks used to be so sensitive to feedback they used to measure the rumble levels with the decks suspended on cotton threads from the ceiling, so poor was the vibration isolation! As for SP10 plinths, you needed to have been around and listening at the time, forty years ago, when the beeb were buying loads (and talking to us about them at KJ) and just before the LP12 swept all before it in Uk domestic circles... The thing is with not "being around at the time" what I read has been written by those who were and those who were and the people I trust in this area, have a our 150yrs of experience in this area too. I may not have been there but it's irrelevant. We were talking speed reliability and as I said, DD, in the main, are superior to belt drive. If you want to get really thorough, have a look at some of the concentric measurements and you'll see that a fair old number of "world class" turntables aren't even concentric, let alone spinning at the right speed. The technics 1210 was designed to be used in loud volume areas and in the home. It has to be able to absorb vibration or it would have failed miserable. The SP10 was not. That's like saying monkeys are better than fish, because fish can't clime trees but monkeys can swim. Belt drives, in general are not as accurate in wow and flutter as DDs. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2019 15:45:03 GMT
tbh i had a lot of time for my old B&O Beogram '1202', Great looking, totally void from arm/cartridge set up, no Sh#t plug in & play.. The platter pegs were suppose to be its Achilles heal, but they never bothered me in the same way the Michell Hydraulic Reference platter never did.
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Post by dsjr on Sept 12, 2019 15:46:01 GMT
I agree that siting and isolation is what killed many direct drives back in the day when the LP12 clearly out-performed them in the bass (prior to the Ittok's introduction which set it back years). So many of these 70's decks had severe mid bass colouration where the LP12/Grace combination was actually more tactile and tuneful, this several years before isolation and 'turntable tables' became the go-to for more upmarket vinyl lovers. Rega's Roy Gandy now says that airborne vibration is far more of a killer than structural borne, but then he was living for ages with a severely worn Rega MM cartridge with masses of audible tracing distortion and didn't notice - when challenged, he claimed he was testing to see how long the styli lasted (yeah, right). At least the graphite platter on the deck I loved made the record as inert as possible (you could pound your fist on a playing record with hardly anything coming through - and this with no additional weights or clamps). Too many damned experts aren't there all with different opinions and I'm now a has-been who doesn't go to all the bakeoffs oop-norf. I'm not slagging the SP10 off ffs, just pointing out that final subjective quality WAS plinth dependant even when the sodding things were new and one or two on PFM in more recent years also found this when they were comparing expensive mounts for theirs (wasn't there a chap - 'I Should Coco?'). As for clubs - effin' TD125's with rubber-mushroom suspension and GL75's were used in the best ones before the techie was discovered and all but took over  I don't think vinyl is used in clubs now, but could be wrong. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2019 15:57:14 GMT
I think i only ever had three Direct drives. The 'SL110', 'SL150, Mk.2' & a Monitor Audio 'ET500'.. The '150' was the best out the three but i bought a Luxman 'PD300' & never looked back at DD ever again.
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Post by dsjr on Sept 13, 2019 18:37:03 GMT
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Post by antonio on Sept 14, 2019 5:04:26 GMT
I didn't read through all the posts, but did read #51. That's what I'd call customer service.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 14, 2019 5:29:59 GMT
Only confirm what I’ve seen before. They really are amongst the good guys of hifi. |
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Post by macca on Sept 14, 2019 7:14:56 GMT
I thought when I watched the set up video that it was a piece of tat and it turns out that it is a piece of tat.
I find it hard to believe they did not know this when they launched it. Possibly hoping that the fanboys would carry all before them. Now even the fanboys are expressing doubts about it they've had to start the damage control process. What other option did they have?
When the safety issues with the pre-amps was raised they first dismissed it as a (motiveless) attempt to damage their business. Only to have to back peddle when it became clear it was a genuine and widespread problem. Just because they are not trying again to brazen it out does not make them 'good guys.'
As a neutral observer I'd say that, based on all evidence to date, it is badly run company making products that are sub-standard tat and relying on forum hype and naïve optimism in order to sell them. Okay so they are not the only hi-fi company doing that, what I don't understand is why so many people seem blind to it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 7:42:18 GMT
I thought when I watched the set up video that it was a piece of tat and it turns out that it is a piece of tat. I find it hard to believe they did not know this when they launched it. Possibly hoping that the fanboys would carry all before them. Now even the fanboys are expressing doubts about it they've had to start the damage control process. What other option did they have? When the safety issues with the pre-amps was raised they first dismissed it as a (motiveless) attempt to damage their business. Only to have to back peddle when it became clear it was a genuine and widespread problem. Just because they are not trying again to brazen it out does not make them 'good guys.' As a neutral observer I'd say that, based on all evidence to date, it is badly run company making products that are sub-standard tat and relying on forum hype and naïve optimism in order to sell them. Okay so they are not the only hi-fi company doing that, what I don't understand is why so many people seem blind to it. The Turntable looks like a bag of Sh#t. Sorry to anyone who likes it but cmon, it's like IKEA hifi. Build it yourself when you get it home. That cartridge mounting problem is a ridiculous oversight. Imagine trying to get a Koetsu on it! Na, not for me and only continues to prove to me, that the best investment is vintage Turntables. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 14, 2019 8:59:25 GMT
It’s a tweaky deck but I would buy one if I was in the market for one, once it’s been fettled.
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Post by dsjr on Sept 14, 2019 9:17:55 GMT
I dunno. You need to go two ways with turntables, either very heavy so the air and structure it's sat on don't have enough energy to have an effect, or as light as possible so any vibration is got rid of before it's really noticed. The Schiit is kind of the latter, but if they say it makes a Rega 3 sound phat and dull when using the same cartridge, there's something severely wrong here (forget Rega's MM's, they're very 'odd' sounding and not in the tiniest bit neutral apart from the baby AT91 based Carbon and the conical tip has an effect here as they all do irrespective of the pickup (Denon 103 indeed)). Like the Funk decks, it seems to be build on the one hand and detailed bits on the other. The belts could come from Pro-ject for all I know and cords have to be joined somehow, so a cyclic issue as the 'knot' or 'join' comes around. Rega's circular section belts always polish out after a few hours and once settled, they never run up and down (many did from brand new). *Decent* direct drives these days would cost a bloody fortune I think unless the cheapest ones of any worth are made in large occasional batches and with VERY cheap labour too. Not sure at all how the Techie would sonically compare with a current Rega 6 neo, as potential advantages in the arm may be countered by better turntable performance. Since most men are tone deaf anyway (especially audiophiles I gather  ), it's anybody's guess |
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Post by macca on Sept 14, 2019 10:03:58 GMT
I dunno. You need to go two ways with turntables, either very heavy so the air and structure it's sat on don't have enough energy to have an effect, or as light as possible so any vibration is got rid of before it's really noticed. The Schiit is kind of the latter, but if they say it makes a Rega 3 sound phat and dull when using the same cartridge, there's something severely wrong here (forget Rega's MM's, they're very 'odd' sounding and not in the tiniest bit neutral apart from the baby AT91 based Carbon and the conical tip has an effect here as they all do irrespective of the pickup (Denon 103 indeed)). Like the Funk decks, it seems to be build on the one hand and detailed bits on the other. The belts could come from Pro-ject for all I know and cords have to be joined somehow, so a cyclic issue as the 'knot' or 'join' comes around. Rega's circular section belts always polish out after a few hours and once settled, they never run up and down (many did from brand new). *Decent* direct drives these days would cost a bloody fortune I think unless the cheapest ones of any worth are made in large occasional batches and with VERY cheap labour too. Not sure at all how the Techie would sonically compare with a current Rega 6 neo, as potential advantages in the arm may be countered by better turntable performance. Since most men are tone deaf anyway (especially audiophiles I gather ), it's anybody's guess There seems to be a general misconception on hi-fi forums that you can 'drain away' vibration so it is not a problem. No you can't. The only way vibration can not be a problem is if there is no vibration or if the part that is vibrating is isolated from the part that you do not want vibrating. This does not only apply to turntables. Heavy or light has nothing to do with it. You can encase the TT in concrete, it is still going to be affected by vibration because the very nature of a pick up cartridge means it is massively sensitive to the tiniest of vibrations. You can buy a decent - very decent - direct drive for £1200 brand new - the Technics SL1200GR. I don't consider £1200 new for an item if hi-fi to be a 'bloody fortune'. Maybe it was back in 1980 but this is 2019. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 10:08:29 GMT
I dunno. You need to go two ways with turntables, either very heavy so the air and structure it's sat on don't have enough energy to have an effect, or as light as possible so any vibration is got rid of before it's really noticed. The Schiit is kind of the latter, but if they say it makes a Rega 3 sound phat and dull when using the same cartridge, there's something severely wrong here (forget Rega's MM's, they're very 'odd' sounding and not in the tiniest bit neutral apart from the baby AT91 based Carbon and the conical tip has an effect here as they all do irrespective of the pickup (Denon 103 indeed)). Like the Funk decks, it seems to be build on the one hand and detailed bits on the other. The belts could come from Pro-ject for all I know and cords have to be joined somehow, so a cyclic issue as the 'knot' or 'join' comes around. Rega's circular section belts always polish out after a few hours and once settled, they never run up and down (many did from brand new). *Decent* direct drives these days would cost a bloody fortune I think unless the cheapest ones of any worth are made in large occasional batches and with VERY cheap labour too. Not sure at all how the Techie would sonically compare with a current Rega 6 neo, as potential advantages in the arm may be countered by better turntable performance. Since most men are tone deaf anyway (especially audiophiles I gather ), it's anybody's guess There seems to be a general misconception on hi-fi forums that you can 'drain away' vibration so it is not a problem. No you can't. The only way vibration can not be a problem is if there is no vibration or if the part that is vibrating is isolated from the part that you do not want vibrating. This does not only apply to turntables. Heavy or light has nothing to do with it. You can encase the TT in concrete, it is still going to be affected by vibration because the very nature of a pick up cartridge means it is massively sensitive to the tiniest of vibrations. You can buy a decent - very decent - direct drive for £1200 brand new - the Technics SL1200GR. I don't consider £1200 new for an item if hi-fi to be a 'bloody fortune'. Maybe it was back in 1980 but this is 2019. Encase the deck in a vacuum and maglev it. Sorted!  |
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Post by macca on Sept 14, 2019 10:28:03 GMT
Yeah that would work. Or you could just buy cd player |
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Post by dsjr on Sept 14, 2019 13:29:15 GMT
£1200 for e techie, and the arm accounts for perhaps £100 of that in retail terms. You lot look at a Rega and sneer but the arm on a Planar 3 or 6 is in a different world, all the high tech in design and manufacture sadly hidden under an iffy finish in the lower caste models. The Neo supply also helps a lot and the speed can now be properly set.
Vibration resistance? I think you're being a bit extreme here macca, but encasing a turntable in concrete on a solid floor would be ideal as long as the pickup assembly wasn't microphonic or the drive noisy. Cutting lathes weren't quite that crude, but weighed the same I gather and the Linn Sculley lathe when it worked used a huge double belt drive to the platter and weighed a ton (I thought I had pics somewhere of it but maybe not and can't find anything online so far to back up the memories).
Tap a record when playing. On the best UK decks I know of, all you get is either nothing, or a very muted light 'thud' through the speakers if you really rap the playing disc with your knuckles. THAT'S vibration isolation - try just tapping a playing record on a typical LP12 and watch the speaker cones all but fly out. Rega's are far better than they've ever been with lid removed, but still siting sensitive imo.
Oli may be interested to discover that apparently, many later lathes used a version of his Matsushita quartz lock drive apparently, due to the utmost precision of speed and noise performance.
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Post by macca on Sept 14, 2019 13:49:45 GMT
Even concrete will transmit vibrations. The Germans built bunkers with an air gap between the top layer of concrete and the bottom one so earthquake bombs would be less effective.
But concrete is probably better than most things. Ken on AoS had a 1200 in a concrete plinth and that was impressive. Especially as he could lift it on his own!
I did also wonder about the arm on the GR until I had a listen and it must be better than the arm on the old one as sound quality is improved over the 1200. No doubt that the arm is the thing that hold back the SL1200 so I'll cheerfully agree with you there.
Anyway turntables isn't it? Jumpers for goalposts. I gave up on the whole malarkey, the games not worth the candle.
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Post by dsjr on Sept 14, 2019 14:31:43 GMT
Techies like my early ones responded to being mounted in a sand lined box. Not sure how the sand was prevented getting into the structure, but maybe a box-in-box with sand filling to dissipate energy?
I maintain an interest as it's been my 'thing' ever since I could toddle. Nice noises can certainly be got but care is needed in choice of (used) items at sensible prices.
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Post by dsjr on Sept 14, 2019 16:58:37 GMT
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Post by macca on Sept 14, 2019 17:22:44 GMT
I dare say the cheapo NAD with circuit-board tonearm would be £250 now? An inflation calculator says - hold on to your hat - £356.41!  I think towards the end they were discounted down to £89 but that's still £245.92 |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 17:26:59 GMT
Matsushita quartz lock
Exactly.
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Post by antonio on Sept 14, 2019 17:29:19 GMT
Matsushita quartz lock Exactly. What does that mean? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 17:31:19 GMT
Matsushita quartz lock Exactly. What does that mean? It's a play on words Dave. Dave referred to the adoption of Matsushita driven lathes due to their "exact" accuracy in wow and flutter. Matsushita created the motor for the SP10 which I lauded for its accuracy in speed and stability. |
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Post by alit on Sept 14, 2019 19:20:55 GMT
Ali, you've obviously never read my numerous posts regarding NAS decks or my waxing so lyrically about the Mentor plus Decca Microscanner I once owned and loved. I had a high speed Revox B77 IEC and tapes with which to compare. My current Dual 701 is acceptable as is a mid level Rega, but obviously doesn't set the world alight with it's more 'compact' sound presentation. I have, but that wasn’t clear in your post. Agree NA decks are superb. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 19:31:40 GMT
Quite a few Decks used Matsushita motors. 70's Rotel, Monitor Audio etc.
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Post by dsjr on Sept 14, 2019 19:49:04 GMT
The OEM ones suffered terrible speed hunting under moderate load (and this was used by many Linn dealers against direct drive I remember) and the MA and Rotel ones were just like this as were the cheaper Technics/Panasonic models and later, JBE never got it sorted although this model sounded fab with Formula 4 and Sonus Blue. The quartz locked models had far higher torque and sorted this at a stroke I remember.
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I don't think vinyl is used in clubs now, but could be wrong.
), it's anybody's guess 
