Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on May 25, 2021 10:08:45 GMT
Cool only another 130 to go then. 😎They are starting to sound rather good though. I did consider the V Cap but felt like being a bit different. So far so good.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,560
|
Post by optical on May 25, 2021 11:08:38 GMT
Those monster 54uf models in the Focal Utopia's took around 10 days of running in at 95dB in an empty room, out of phase and with two duvets strapped to each speaker lol They really do take an age to run in, 200+ hours of normal use imho Just had a little chuckle trying to imagine getting the speakers through the door then explaining to my family where all the duvets have gone. I would then point out to them that they wouldn't be needing said duvets as the speakers must play at a high level for the next couple of weeks so sleep would be irrelevant. Damn I need a hifi business (as a cover if not to make any money).
|
|
|
Post by electronumpty on May 25, 2021 14:08:18 GMT
Cool only another 130 to go then. 😎They are starting to sound rather good though. I did consider the V Cap but felt like being a bit different. So far so good. Good to hear, tbh I considered a few different caps but size was an issue (fnaar ,fnaar). The vcaps fit pretty well onto the board so I went with them. All the othwr ones I fancied were too big really and I didn't want to redo the case etc. Be interesting to see how the copper caps work out.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on May 31, 2021 16:11:51 GMT
I can't tell you how many times "legendary" equipment has not worked out here. All the way back to the Alphasson HRS100 I owned, these ICONIC pieces of HIFI equipment have left me wondering what all the fuss was about. By no means am I suggesting that I am right, and the legendary status is wrong, just that these often lauded bits of equipment have not won me over. The first time that sticks out in my memory was when I bought the Alphasson HRS100. The tone arm was offered out as a prize to anyone who could bend the titanium arm. As it was written, they never gave one away. Supreme rigidity, beautiful looks and reports of its almost unbeatable performance, led me to send £600 to someone in Croatia and hope one arrived, as promised. It was my first big spend and regardless of it being in as new condition, I just couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. In fact, had I been a little braver at the time, I would have kept my Mission 774 OG tone arm as I thought it was better, and I definitely preferred listening to it. Another time I was left disappointed was with the purchase of a Denon DLS1. Again, £600ish went out the door, and again I just did not like what I heard. My Kontrapunkt b walked all over it. Easily. The Yams arrived to similar legendary comments. However, I think they too let me down: The introduction of the Q Acoustics has demonstrated (clearly) that I was not getting the whole story out of my system with the Yamaha NS1000M's. My enthusiasm for the Russian PIO caps I recently fitted, has been well and truly eradicated over the last week or so. After fitting a pair in my BB3 (whilst still using the Yams) They sounded superbly smooth and detailed. A huge bonus given the price. So much so that I gave a pair to Alan to fit. When the Q's arrived, and I played some vinyl, there was something amiss. There was a veil. I rolled a few valves, but it was not making any difference. The digital was stunning. It didn't make any sense. I had been eyeing up the Audyn True Copper Max for some weeks and thought "if the vinyl is so far behind the digital, I will have a last throw of the dice and see what happens" The ATCM arrived and have been playing every day since. They instantly removed the veil that the Russian caps had imparted on the sound, but I wondered why I hadn't heard that with the yams. I reasoned that the Clarity cap CMR and the Russians must have been quite close to each other in terms of transparency, and that must be why it hadn't been revealed. Surely these legendary speakers weren't to blame. Well today, I put that to the test in their absence. I tried a set playlist with 1 pair of CMR, 1 pair of PIO and 1 pair ATCM I won't bore you all with the gory details, but the result was very interesting: 3rd Place - Russian PIO The PIO's are good caps for £4ea. Apart from a veil that cannot be unheard, they are silky smooth, detailed and quite pleasant, but the Clarity caps and the Audyns made them look and sound like poor relations. I just cannot recommend them after today. This was clearly obvious with the Q's. It was not obvious with the Yams. 2nd Place - Clarity Cap CMR The CMR blew the PIO's out of the picture and removed the veil and opened up a very clear and transparent look into the mix. However, the comparison with the Audyn is not as straight forward as I would like it to have been. The Clarity Caps exhibit almost 90% of all the quality of the Audyns for almost 1/3 cost. They are detailed, refined, smooth and from what I can hear...very transparent. They make the PIO sound like they have worn out and need replacing. Tonality is superb and the wooden body of the guitars and the breathy rasps of brass instruments leaves you making noises of approval. Vocals are chesty and clear, and you get the sense of humans singing and players playing. Technique and style is delivered on to your eardrum, and it's easy to digest. Huge, expansive sound and seemingly limitless in their ability to leave you to fawn over the music is superb. They are a must-have cap if you need a cost-effective upgrade. 1st Place - Audyn True Copper Max The ATCM are crazy good. With them in the phonostage, clarinets, vocals, classical guitars etc, all took on a real life tonal quality and size. Toms and bongos were popping out in free space, and that's where the main difference between the CMR and the ATCM was....space. With the ATCM in the phonostage, there was something going on....very difficult to put your finger on. We often say things like "the soundstage grew...it was wider, deeper taller" etc but that's not what this was. I said before on a post elsewhere that the better things get, the less the speakers seem to do. The ATCM detach the sound from the speaker to greater a degree than the CMR. It's not night and day, it is midnight Vs the darkest moment before dawn! Subtle, but you notice. It took me ages to even find a way of trying to describe it and I don't think I have managed it very well either lol The ATCM have uncanny tonal accuracy and realism that neither of the other caps could match. It's all on the smallest of details too. Being able to hear little nuances that were probably not as well revealed previously, made recordings have more information on how they were done. Live & Dangerous was very demonstrative of that. The venue played a more prominent role in the recording with the ATCM in place. Overall, It's like the phonostage went up a few quid when they were in, and I don't mean cost wise, but price vs performance. That the ATCM were better is unquestionable IMO and for me, they will be staying. The CMR were expensive at £85 a pair. The ATCM and £230ish a pair. Unless you are feeling flush, the CMR make the most sense. If you are flush, the ATCM are wonderful caps. SO, what of the Q's vs the Yams. Well, if it was boxing, the Yams would have failed the medical, failed to make weight, forfeited their purse. Probably deserving of a title, a legend right enough, but no one liked seeing Muhammad Ali take unnecessary beatings because he couldn't accept his time was over, and I don't want to inflict a similar beating on these legends for the same reason. The only thing I have to regret from owning them is that I sold some irreplaceable speaker cables I had made a while back, based on the fact my "new ones" sounded as good through the Yams. I doubt that would have been the case if I did the comparison now Don't worry though, I have new cable on the way to try. It's pretty special stuff.....more on that to follow.Â
|
|
|
Post by stevew on May 31, 2021 17:31:57 GMT
Having been the beneficiary of buying your old speaker cable I can only offer my apologies and gratitude at the same time. It’s been an interesting journey with them. At first it was quite uncomfortable listening through an old stereo coffee pre and Apart Champ one amp. But then I plumbed in the Lyngdorf tdai 2200... and whoa. Never heard this amp sound so good. Detailed but balanced and holistic. Then this weekend I got a SOtM iso cat 6 off eBay. It’s some kind of gizmo that sits right before the streamer and ‘cleans up’ all the digital noise that comes from routers and switches. Anyway.. it bloody works, and I don’t think it would have been half as effective without the revealing speaker cable. Listening this morning revealed much more on tracks I know so well.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on May 31, 2021 18:03:56 GMT
Having been the beneficiary of buying your old speaker cable I can only offer my apologies and gratitude at the same time. It’s been an interesting journey with them. At first it was quite uncomfortable listening through an old stereo coffee pre and Apart Champ one amp. But then I plumbed in the Lyngdorf tdai 2200... and whoa. Never heard this amp sound so good. Detailed but balanced and holistic. Then this weekend I got a SOtM iso cat 6 off eBay. It’s some kind of gizmo that sits right before the streamer and ‘cleans up’ all the digital noise that comes from routers and switches. Anyway.. it bloody works, and I don’t think it would have been half as effective without the revealing speaker cable. Listening this morning revealed much more on tracks I know so well. Haha, don't worry Steve. After the year and a half you've had you deserve some good fortune and believe me, they should be seen as good fortune. Not surprised the Stereo Coffee was tough listening.....😉 Trouble is, with those cables there is no hiding place. If something isn't up to snuff, they will show you. I'll have to Google the Cat 6.....never heard of it?
|
|
|
Post by stevew on May 31, 2021 18:15:24 GMT
Bit of a gamble. Especially at these prices. £350 list price, paid a lot less on the bay.. but it paid off.
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on May 31, 2021 18:16:26 GMT
Excellent bit of cap info there Oli. However, having said you have forensic hearing (he does folks), makes me question that the average Joe would notice the difference between the CMR and the ATCM.
I haven't burnt in or tried those DC Link caps but I don't think you got on with them, if I recall.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on May 31, 2021 18:53:57 GMT
Excellent bit of cap info there Oli. However, having said you have forensic hearing (he does folks), makes me question that the average Joe would notice the difference between the CMR and the ATCM. I haven't burnt in or tried those DC Link caps but I don't think you got on with them, if I recall. I think folks would hear it because it's having that effect overall, rather than just in one area. Whether they think it's value for money, well I doubt it. See, I'll be replacing all the terminals on the Q acoustics and most people will think I am crazy, bit you know what I'm like mate. £1000 for an extra 1% performance.....sign me up 🤣
|
|
|
Post by misterc on May 31, 2021 19:02:29 GMT
Cat 6, has been around for quite a while (around 8 years or so) cat 8 has been with us for a bit as well but not implimented as much it is about bandwidth, twisted pairs and improved dielectrics Either go fibre convetsion or wait for the new single twisted pair spec SPE Oli doesn't have forensic ears, I feel he is more attuned to certain frequencies and how they sound due to his playing an instrument for many years. For myself it's a timing syncopation and the n'th degree of thwack due to being a drummer for close to 42 years so playing tight and clean is more my bag I suspect Oli is about tone and separation with a smattering of whammy bar hooliganism and note bending Seiously the big copper caps deliver a greater deeper tone and note decay with better spatially very easy to determine One of the better high end caps for those that Deuelund and v-caps are to much of stretch We have upgraded a few high end speakers with these great caps
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on May 31, 2021 21:30:20 GMT
Cat 6, has been around for quite a while (around 8 years or so) cat 8 has been with us for a bit as well but not implimented as much it is about bandwidth, twisted pairs and improved dielectrics Either go fibre conversion or wait for the new single twisted pair spec SPE Oli doesn't have forensic ears, I feel he is more attuned to certain frequencies and how they sound due to his playing an instrument for many years. For myself it's a timing syncopation and the n'th degree of thwack due to being a drummer for close to 42 years so playing tight and clean is more my bag
I suspect Oli is about tone and separation with a smattering of whammy bar hooliganism and note bending
Seiously the big copper caps deliver a greater deeper tone and note decay with better spatially very easy to determine One of the better high end caps for those that Deuelund and v-caps are to much of stretch We have upgraded a few high end speakers with these great caps I don't know if the two "categories" are mutually exclusive? I am not convinced that i have "Bat-Ears" as Alan calls me lol. Whilst i do spend a lot of time picking things apart and talking about what i hear, there are MANY folks that do that for a living. Others do it for free and do YT videos etc. What i think is happening here is the application of accidental ear training that took place over 32 years of playing every instrument i could get hold of. 8yrs old, playing the Cello (by ear) to a standard that alerted the Royal Academy of music. They sent a pair of women to evaluate me. Once evaluated, they wrote to my parents and said "Oliver is playing at a grade 4, without the ability to read music" I was then evaluated via the tone tests, where you have to identify whether the pitch is higher or lower than the last tone they play. I aced the test. Literally aced it and they were breaking their neck to get me to go. I remember my old man sitting me down and saying "this could take you anywhere in the world. You could play in orchestras all over the world" Next day, i went and got my head shaved like Steve Bull (Wolves footballer) and told my dad i didn't want to go. Attending meant i would have to board there. I wasn't ready and I knew we couldn't afford it anyway. It wasn't until i was about 15 that he told me they had called frequently, visited again and even offered a scholarship with free accommodation if he could persuade me. He knew i wouldn't go and told them that it was not a possibility. From there, St.Peters in Wolverhampton requested my attendance at their high brow school from the age of 11 i believe, which would be facilitated by my participation in the school and church choir. We were out of the catchment area, but i sang at a school concert and they wanted me. That voice departed with the nuts descending lol. They dodged a bullet lol After that, i played Cello for another couple of months but that all went to Sh#t when i played a two sided LP. One side had the Who....loved it...but the next side was Hendrix. It changed me. I can't describe it, but when i listened to that crackly record on my dads Sony midi system.....Something happened in my brain, like neurons bursting into life and firing all over my head. It was like my scalp was crawling and i had Goosebumps all over me. The track..... It just blew my tiny mind......and just like that, i was lost to anything other than a Fender Stratocaster. Four years passed without playing anything out of determination to force my mom into letting me get a guitar. Every Christmas i asked, every year Santa did not deliver. Finally, i managed to get my mom to let me spend £150 of MY OWN MONEY on a guitar. I bought a red Fender Squire. Played it till my fingers literally bled on the fretboard. I put plasters on and carried on. I genuinely spend more time tuning my guitar than playing it because i am highly sensitive to pitch. If a TT runs fast, i can't stand it. That's why i sold the Inspire Quest and have never even tried a Rega. The Technics is the weapon of choice but the main one is trust. I trust it to be totally on point. I Cannot be distracted from the listening. If i am , i can't hear it. I only hear the issue. When i have given an opinion on someone's system, it uysually based on whether something is missing that i think should be there, or whether something is there that shoudln't be. It's very personal. I suspect that HiFi is just a continuation/extension of my obsession with music. What HiFi has done for me, is let me get further into hearing what is there. Listening at this level has only intensified the "Mind-gasms" that music sparks in my brain. I am listening to the YT video now and i am covered in endorphin endued goosebumps. On the system, i am travelling down tunnels in my mind and totally detached from reality. It might sound a bit hippy like, or mental, but that's what this hobby boils down to for me....inducing the most endorphins. Systems and equipment that don't do that, are the ones that take my attention away from listening. Whether it be a lack of timing, rhythmic clout, sterility, lack of tone, texture or tangiblity....it doesn't matter. If it doesn't sound natural, fluid, lucid and it just doesn't work. 95% of these high priced systems are total bullshit. Designed to be impressive and ear-catching. They impress initially and become fatiguing and uninteresting very quickly. The EXACT issue with digital for the longest time has been it's inability to not sound artificial. Like rehydrated food....it just aint been the same. Luckily now we have decent DACs that can be played for hours at a time without distracting from the music, but i will say this too, there is no DAC i have heard anywhere that does music like vinyl does it. Just saying.
|
|
|
Post by stevew on May 31, 2021 21:30:26 GMT
Cat 6, has been around for quite a while (around 8 years or so) cat 8 has been with us for a bit as well but not implimented as much it is about bandwidth, twisted pairs and improved dielectrics Either go fibre convetsion or wait for the new single twisted pair spec SPE Oli doesn't have forensic ears, I feel he is more attuned to certain frequencies and how they sound due to his playing an instrument for many years. For myself it's a timing syncopation and the n'th degree of thwack due to being a drummer for close to 42 years so playing tight and clean is more my bag I suspect Oli is about tone and separation with a smattering of whammy bar hooliganism and note bending Seiously the big copper caps deliver a greater deeper tone and note decay with better spatially very easy to determine One of the better high end caps for those that Deuelund and v-caps are to much of stretch We have upgraded a few high end speakers with these great caps Sorry Tony. It’s not Cat 6, just the confusing name that SOtM give to their isolation transformer.
|
|
|
Post by stevew on Jun 1, 2021 6:51:59 GMT
Cat 6, has been around for quite a while (around 8 years or so) cat 8 has been with us for a bit as well but not implimented as much it is about bandwidth, twisted pairs and improved dielectrics Either go fibre conversion or wait for the new single twisted pair spec SPE Oli doesn't have forensic ears, I feel he is more attuned to certain frequencies and how they sound due to his playing an instrument for many years. For myself it's a timing syncopation and the n'th degree of thwack due to being a drummer for close to 42 years so playing tight and clean is more my bag
I suspect Oli is about tone and separation with a smattering of whammy bar hooliganism and note bendingÂ
Seiously the big copper caps deliver a greater deeper tone and note decay with better spatially very easy to determine One of the better high end caps for those that Deuelund and v-caps are to much of stretch We have upgraded a few high end speakers with these great caps I don't know if the two "categories" are mutually exclusive? I am not convinced that i have "Bat-Ears" as Alan calls me lol. Whilst i do spend a lot of time picking things apart and talking about what i hear, there are MANY folks that do that for a living. Others do it for free and do YT videos etc. What i think is happening here is the application of accidental ear training that took place over 32 years of playing every instrument i could get hold of. 8yrs old, playing the Cello (by ear) to a standard that alerted the Royal Academy of music. They sent a pair of women to evaluate me. Once evaluated, they wrote to my parents and said "Oliver is playing at a grade 4, without the ability to read music" I was then evaluated via the tone tests, where you have to identify whether the pitch is higher or lower than the last tone they play. I aced the test. Literally aced it and they were breaking their neck to get me to go. I remember my old man sitting me down and saying "this could take you anywhere in the world. You could play in orchestras all over the world" Next day, i went and got my head shaved like Steve Bull (Wolves footballer) and told my dad i didn't want to go. Attending meant i would have to board there. I wasn't ready and I knew we couldn't afford it anyway. It wasn't until i was about 15 that he told me they had called frequently, visited again and even offered a scholarship with free accommodation if he could persuade me. He knew i wouldn't go and told them that it was not a possibility. From there, St.Peters in Wolverhampton requested my attendance at their high brow school from the age of 11 i believe, which would be facilitated by my participation in the school and church choir. We were out of the catchment area, but i sang at a school concert and they wanted me. That voice departed with the nuts descending lol. They dodged a bullet lol After that, i played Cello for another couple of months but that all went to Sh#t when i played a two sided LP. One side had the Who....loved it...but the next side was Hendrix. It changed me. I can't describe it, but when i listened to that crackly record on my dads Sony midi system.....Something happened in my brain, like neurons bursting into life and firing all over my head. It was like my scalp was crawling and i had Goosebumps all over me. The track..... It just blew my tiny mind......and just like that, i was lost to anything other than a Fender Stratocaster. Four years passed without playing anything out of determination to force my mom into letting me get a guitar. Every Christmas i asked, every year Santa did not deliver. Finally, i managed to get my mom to let me spend £150 of MY OWN MONEY on a guitar. I bought a red Fender Squire. Played it till my fingers literally bled on the fretboard. I put plasters on and carried on. I genuinely spend more time tuning my guitar than playing it because i am highly sensitive to pitch. If a TT runs fast, i can't stand it. That's why i sold the Inspire Quest and have never even tried a Rega. The Technics is the weapon of choice but the main one is trust. I trust it to be totally on point. I Cannot be distracted from the listening. If i am , i can't hear it. I only hear the issue. When i have given an opinion on someone's system, it uysually based on whether something is missing that i think should be there, or whether something is there that shoudln't be. It's very personal. I suspect that HiFi is just a continuation/extension of my obsession with music. What HiFi has done for me, is let me get further into hearing what is there. Listening at this level has only intensified the "Mind-gasms" that music sparks in my brain. I am listening to the YT video now and i am covered in endorphin endued goosebumps. On the system, i am travelling down tunnels in my mind and totally detached from reality. It might sound a bit hippy like, or mental, but that's what this hobby boils down to for me....inducing the most endorphins. Systems and equipment that don't do that, are the ones that take my attention away from listening. Whether it be a lack of timing, rhythmic clout, sterility, lack of tone, texture or tangiblity....it doesn't matter. If it doesn't sound natural, fluid, lucid and it just doesn't work. 95% of these high priced systems are total bullshit. Designed to be impressive and ear-catching. They impress initially and become fatiguing and uninteresting very quickly. The EXACT issue with digital for the longest time has been it's inability to not sound artificial. Like rehydrated food....it just aint been the same. Luckily now we have decent DACs that can be played for hours at a time without distracting from the music, but i will say this too, there is no DAC i have heard anywhere that does music like vinyl does it. Just saying. I’ve been thinking about all this. It’s totally fascinating how differently our brains can be wired. Think our son has his working very much the same as yours Oli. We can be eating in the kitchen with some music on, and he will say something like ‘ can you hear that? It’s a garage band loop’ I have no idea. Then at the same time he will pick up a guitar and just start playing the same tune. Mind you, he has no common sense and a unique way of looking at the world. So when people involved in hifi talk about it all being about the music, it really isn’t true for many ... but it is for you.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 1, 2021 7:13:50 GMT
[/quote] I’ve been thinking about all this. It’s totally fascinating how differently our brains can be wired. Think our son has his working very much the same as yours Oli. We can be eating in the kitchen with some music on, and he will say something like ‘ can you hear that? It’s a garage band loop’ I have no idea. Then at the same time he will pick up a guitar and just start playing the same tune. Mind you, he has no common sense and a unique way of looking at the world. So when people involved in hifi talk about it all being about the music, it really isn’t true for many ... but it is for you. [/quote]
Yes! i get that, totally. I hear the repeated pattern in music. I can play entire songs that i heard once, because of the 20 others i have heard that use either the same or very similar chord progressions. Maybe just in a different key.
He sounds like he has that too.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 1, 2021 7:18:55 GMT
Patterns......see here and you'll understand what I'm getting at:
|
|
|
Post by stevew on Jun 1, 2021 7:50:59 GMT
That’s awesome
If you ever listen to some Indian/Asian music it can get quite interesting
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Jun 1, 2021 10:50:01 GMT
Some really good background information there chaps on how and why each person perceives how music is presented and reproduced
I was being lazy with my reply as we actually managed a couple of days off work and replied from sitting in the back garden with an ice cold Weston's vintage in hand
Oli is correct, the two examples I cited are not exclusive in any way, however I have found over the years (Sh#t that makes me sound so old ) that talking to musicians of all forms and styles of music, each person looks for a specific set of traits and formats within the music. From those that popped into the studio and those who we know and other on casual basis.
Patterns are one; such trait for myself rudiments and round the kit excursions are part of rhythmic and syncopation aspect that is critical to how I play and react with the bass player and lay down that timing anchor for the rest of the band to take their cues from.
If this is not 100% then the rest of the song is just plain 'off', with the keyboard and guitarist trying to make up for any mistakes the 'engine room' is generating by having to play around our inability to get it right.
Therefore the rest of the musicians (unless they are world class improvisers! ) will be not just playing catch up by having to 'fill in' for our plan laziness and will more than likely go off key/tempo and it will become obvious that either the drummer is having a bad day (somebody played me Naim of Chord electronics that day) or the Bass player has the hump because he didn't get that afternoon or is still hung over
Some players solely have what I call a tonal bias to there perspective, searching for that sublime rich, broad based tone they crave at the expense of all else, others are more keenly fixed on the aspect of playing as a whole entity other are more relaxed about the whole playing aspect of life and just do what they feel is right!
Also experience in playing a certain way or with specific performers are also key factors in how the individual perceives music a a whole.
A few years ago I was recording a small quintet at a well know classical venue, just a simple recording with a single mic wide dispersal microphone and a portable 24/96Khz recorder, I took along a pair of active studio monitors for playback.
Set up the mic around 6 feet from the center point of the playing position and took around 40 minutes worth of playing.
One of the principle players was using a Stradivarius, which according to many 'fiddle players' lol I know is a very bare instrument to play and produces a thinner sound than today's more musical larger and textured sounding violins.
The upshot was, this chap felt the reproduction sounded nothing like his playing (i did zero mixing) ,just a playback with the monitors on the chairs he felt that unless he was sitting around 3 feet from the exit point of the speaker drivers it just sounded very flat and lifeless!!!
Something which Focal monitors are not!
For him, his ear is virtually sitting on the body of the instrument so his perception of dynamics and immediacy are almost instantaneous and that is how HE listening to music what ever he is listening to.
Also he quizzed him further with respect to he view of timing in relation to playing in a quintet and an symphonic orchestra, his interpretation of timing is quite different thoroughly equally important to his style of music.
In the case of 120 musicians it is experience and practice and anticipation of of the understanding of the piece of music being played in conjunction with the conductor as to when and how strong those musicians 'come in' to the playing at precisely the correct time in space for that piece of music to be seamless integrated.
Here is an interesting video from a modern day classical composers thoughts on a timeless rock classic, notice how he picks up the melody and scaling pretty much straight away and appreciates the quality of the musicianship
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,560
|
Post by optical on Jun 2, 2021 8:14:31 GMT
Cat 6, has been around for quite a while (around 8 years or so) cat 8 has been with us for a bit as well but not implimented as much it is about bandwidth, twisted pairs and improved dielectrics
Either go fibre conversion or wait for the new single twisted pair spec SPE
Oli doesn't have forensic ears, I feel he is more attuned to certain frequencies and how they sound due to his playing an instrument for many years. For myself it's a timing syncopation and the n'th degree of thwack due to being a drummer for close to 42 years so playing tight and clean is more my bag
I suspect Oli is about tone and separation with a smattering of whammy bar hooliganism and note bending
Seiously the big copper caps deliver a greater deeper tone and note decay with better spatially very easy to determine
One of the better high end caps for those that Deuelund and v-caps are to much of stretch We have upgraded a few high end speakers with these great caps I don't know if the two "categories" are mutually exclusive?
I am not convinced that i have "Bat-Ears" as Alan calls me lol. Whilst i do spend a lot of time picking things apart and talking about what i hear, there are MANY folks that do that for a living. Others do it for free and do YT videos etc.
What i think is happening here is the application of accidental ear training that took place over 32 years of playing every instrument i could get hold of.
8yrs old, playing the Cello (by ear) to a standard that alerted the Royal Academy of music. They sent a pair of women to evaluate me. Once evaluated, they wrote to my parents and said "Oliver is playing at a grade 4, without the ability to read music"
I was then evaluated via the tone tests, where you have to identify whether the pitch is higher or lower than the last tone they play. I aced the test. Literally aced it and they were breaking their neck to get me to go. I remember my old man sitting me down and saying "this could take you anywhere in the world. You could play in orchestras all over the world"
Next day, i went and got my head shaved like Steve Bull (Wolves footballer) and told my dad i didn't want to go. Attending meant i would have to board there. I wasn't ready and I knew we couldn't afford it anyway. It wasn't until i was about 15 that he told me they had called frequently, visited again and even offered a scholarship with free accommodation if he could persuade me. He knew i wouldn't go and told them that it was not a possibility.
From there, St.Peters in Wolverhampton requested my attendance at their high brow school from the age of 11 i believe, which would be facilitated by my participation in the school and church choir. We were out of the catchment area, but i sang at a school concert and they wanted me. That voice departed with the nuts descending lol. They dodged a bullet lol
After that, i played Cello for another couple of months but that all went to Sh#t when i played a two sided LP. One side had the Who....loved it...but the next side was Hendrix.
It changed me. I can't describe it, but when i listened to that crackly record on my dads Sony midi system.....Something happened in my brain, like neurons bursting into life and firing all over my head. It was like my scalp was crawling and i had Goosebumps all over me. The track.....
It just blew my tiny mind......and just like that, i was lost to anything other than a Fender Stratocaster.
Four years passed without playing anything out of determination to force my mom into letting me get a guitar. Every Christmas i asked, every year Santa did not deliver. Finally, i managed to get my mom to let me spend £150 of MY OWN MONEY on a guitar. I bought a red Fender Squire. Played it till my fingers literally bled on the fretboard. I put plasters on and carried on.
I genuinely spend more time tuning my guitar than playing it because i am highly sensitive to pitch. If a TT runs fast, i can't stand it. That's why i sold the Inspire Quest and have never even tried a Rega. The Technics is the weapon of choice but the main one is trust. I trust it to be totally on point. I Cannot be distracted from the listening. If i am , i can't hear it. I only hear the issue.
When i have given an opinion on someone's system, it uysually based on whether something is missing that i think should be there, or whether something is there that shoudln't be. It's very personal.
I suspect that HiFi is just a continuation/extension of my obsession with music.
What HiFi has done for me, is let me get further into hearing what is there. Listening at this level has only intensified the "Mind-gasms" that music sparks in my brain. I am listening to the YT video now and i am covered in endorphin endued goosebumps. On the system, i am travelling down tunnels in my mind and totally detached from reality. It might sound a bit hippy like, or mental, but that's what this hobby boils down to for me....inducing the most endorphins.
Systems and equipment that don't do that, are the ones that take my attention away from listening. Whether it be a lack of timing, rhythmic clout, sterility, lack of tone, texture or tangiblity....it doesn't matter. If it doesn't sound natural, fluid, lucid and it just doesn't work. 95% of these high priced systems are total bullshit. Designed to be impressive and ear-catching. They impress initially and become fatiguing and uninteresting very quickly.
The EXACT issue with digital for the longest time has been it's inability to not sound artificial. Like rehydrated food....it just aint been the same. Luckily now we have decent DACs that can be played for hours at a time without distracting from the music, but i will say this too, there is no DAC i have heard anywhere that does music like vinyl does it.
Just saying.
Brilliant post Oli, thanks for that. I can't really do it any justice but I will say this, sound is still just pressure waveforms hitting and bouncing off a spot of biological tissue connected to a big neuro-muscle we still know only a limited amount regarding! The amount of variables involved, which lead to the different ways we all perceive music and sound, are practically infinite. This does go a long way to explaining why one man's 'bright' is another man's 'detailed' etc. Of course scientific analysis and measurements do go a long way in helping us get to an agreed 'yardstick' and general blueprint of how things will/should/do sound to us in the real world, but there is, in my opinion, still a lot left to uncover, be it measurable (or perceivable by some and not others) or not. My experience falls somewhere between yours and a slightly more 'mechanical' approach to music. I do play a couple of instruments (pretty badly to be fair) but I have studied structure, musical patterns and their effects of giving 'pleasure' to the brain and unearthing certain patterns which fall into the audibly pleasing category. Of course this is nothing new and just as a basic example pretty much everyone could tell the difference between the happy vs sad audible impact of a major vs a minor chord but looking a little deeper into tone wheels, chord progression and parallels really does help explain why some music makes us feel the way it does. The more 'accurate' your hearing is, the more 'perfect' a sound your brain requires to relax and enjoy listening. I myself cannot listen to anything that is particularly 'muddy' in the lower part of a mix or anything that aggravates an audible crossover point within speakers (very common I know) which is another reason I find my Quads so alluring (when they're bloody working that is!). I doubt I'm anywhere near your level of 'insight' regarding ability to pick out issues with kit and recordings but I do know EXACTLY what you are saying. The way you have communicated it in such a natural and flowing description, draws a lot of parallels with me. I believe if you do have this 'curse/gift' to pick apart and critique music and equipment it's a bit of a two way street, as in it's more difficult to achieve pleasure in listening but the reward is ultimately great in itself. That's not to say the same reward cannot be obtained by those more forgiving of 'shortcomings' in music and equipment, just that the amount of time/work/money put in to get there might make it seem like more of a payoff I guess. Keep up the detailed findings mate, they are appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 2, 2021 16:12:47 GMT
Not sure I agree with the thing about the latest DACs, plenty of 'natural' sounding CD players from back in the day.
Although I know what you mean about digital sounding 'digital.' I have a Pioneer DVD player that does that, only a cheapy though. Also had a Pioneer laserdisc plater that did the same when playing CD. But my 1980s CD players could be mistaken for vinyl.
These days I reckon getting the impedance and the gain staging right throughout the chain is the key really, not always easy.
You can get vinyl to sound unnatural in pretty much the same way too, try a Linn K9 Cartridge if you can find one, you'll see what I mean.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2021 17:52:54 GMT
You can get vinyl to sound unnatural in pretty much the same way too, try a Linn K9 Cartridge if you can find one, you'll see what I mean. I have heard it is a bit of a dog.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2021 7:22:00 GMT
[/quote]Brilliant post Oli, thanks for that.
I can't really do it any justice but I will say this, sound is still just pressure waveforms hitting and bouncing off a spot of biological tissue connected to a big neuro-muscle we still know only a limited amount regarding!
The amount of variables involved, which lead to the different ways we all perceive music and sound, are practically infinite. This does go a long way to explaining why one man's 'bright' is another man's 'detailed' etc. Of course scientific analysis and measurements do go a long way in helping us get to an agreed 'yardstick' and general blueprint of how things will/should/do sound to us in the real world, but there is, in my opinion, still a lot left to uncover, be it measurable (or perceivable by some and not others) or not.
My experience falls somewhere between yours and a slightly more 'mechanical' approach to music. I do play a couple of instruments (pretty badly to be fair) but I have studied structure, musical patterns and their effects of giving 'pleasure' to the brain and unearthing certain patterns which fall into the audibly pleasing category. Of course this is nothing new and just as a basic example pretty much everyone could tell the difference between the happy vs sad audible impact of a major vs a minor chord but looking a little deeper into tone wheels, chord progression and parallels really does help explain why some music makes us feel the way it does.
The more 'accurate' your hearing is, the more 'perfect' a sound your brain requires to relax and enjoy listening. I myself cannot listen to anything that is particularly 'muddy' in the lower part of a mix or anything that aggravates an audible crossover point within speakers (very common I know) which is another reason I find my Quads so alluring (when they're bloody working that is!).
I doubt I'm anywhere near your level of 'insight' regarding ability to pick out issues with kit and recordings but I do know EXACTLY what you are saying. The way you have communicated it in such a natural and flowing description, draws a lot of parallels with me.
I believe if you do have this 'curse/gift' to pick apart and critique music and equipment it's a bit of a two way street, as in it's more difficult to achieve pleasure in listening but the reward is ultimately great in itself. That's not to say the same reward cannot be obtained by those more forgiving of 'shortcomings' in music and equipment, just that the amount of time/work/money put in to get there might make it seem like more of a payoff I guess.
Keep up the detailed findings mate, they are appreciated.
[/quote]
Yes. You have hit the nail on the head there, and thank you! I will continue to bore everyone to death with my detailed ramblings lol
I'm still writing another lengthy ramble...it's long, even for me lol
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2021 7:23:55 GMT
Not sure I agree with the thing about the latest DACs, plenty of 'natural' sounding CD players from back in the day. Although I know what you mean about digital sounding 'digital.' I have a Pioneer DVD player that does that, only a cheapy though. Also had a Pioneer laserdisc plater that did the same when playing CD. But my 1980s CD players could be mistaken for vinyl. These days I reckon getting the impedance and the gain staging right throughout the chain is the key really, not always easy. You can get vinyl to sound unnatural in pretty much the same way too, try a Linn K9 Cartridge if you can find one, you'll see what I mean. Not the latest DAC's as a collective, but with the latest focus on R2R DACs there has been a significant shift in digital being very listenable now. Don't know about CD players....never really bothered with them but i do have a 90's Technics CD player that defies logic for SQ.
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Jun 9, 2021 11:29:00 GMT
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jun 9, 2021 12:00:17 GMT
Not sure I agree with the thing about the latest DACs, plenty of 'natural' sounding CD players from back in the day. Although I know what you mean about digital sounding 'digital.' I have a Pioneer DVD player that does that, only a cheapy though. Also had a Pioneer laserdisc plater that did the same when playing CD. But my 1980s CD players could be mistaken for vinyl. These days I reckon getting the impedance and the gain staging right throughout the chain is the key really, not always easy. You can get vinyl to sound unnatural in pretty much the same way too, try a Linn K9 Cartridge if you can find one, you'll see what I mean. Not the latest DAC's as a collective, but with the latest focus on R2R DACs there has been a significant shift in digital being very listenable now. Don't know about CD players....never really bothered with them but i do have a 90's Technics CD player that defies logic for SQ. You see I've found digital very listenable for decades and so have millions of others. Although admittedly some of that will have been with CD players using R-2R DACs, When we were comparing those DACs at my place the other week the differences were marginal at best. Although my overall 'gut preference' was for your modified R-2R DAC I didn't perceive anything so startlingly different/better that it backs up all the hype. If I had I would have bought one.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2021 13:26:38 GMT
Not the latest DAC's as a collective, but with the latest focus on R2R DACs there has been a significant shift in digital being very listenable now. Don't know about CD players....never really bothered with them but i do have a 90's Technics CD player that defies logic for SQ. You see I've found digital very listenable for decades and so have millions of others. Although admittedly some of that will have been with CD players using R-2R DACs, When we were comparing those DACs at my place the other week the differences were marginal at best. Although my overall 'gut preference' was for your modified R-2R DAC I didn't perceive anything so startlingly different/better that it backs up all the hype. If I had I would have bought one. You see, I thought that piano and vocal track quite clearly demonstrated the difference between the Soncoz and the Soekris. If I'd have been buying that day, I'd have been in no doubt about it. But like we said at the time, your exposure to those particular types of DAC hasn't been as great as mine, so it's understandable that it passed under your radar a bit. Happy for a do over to take place here.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,560
|
Post by optical on Jun 9, 2021 13:53:07 GMT
I've got a custom built (huge power supply) TDA1541 NOS DAC in the pipeline. It uses NOS Telefunken C3G tubes in the output stage . . . . I have been assured it takes the qualities of that chip and the NOS approach to a new level with these particular tubes. While everyone has been raving about the new breed of R2R DAC's (which I don't doubt) I thought I might tread a different path and try a redesign of a classic analogue sounding chip. I've never seen or heard this implementation with these (very rare and special) tubes.
As we're on some DAC chat I couldn't contain my excitement any longer. It may be good it may be crap but it'll be fun finding out.
Should be here this week fingers crossed.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2021 14:22:33 GMT
I've got a custom built (huge power supply) TDA1541 NOS DAC in the pipeline. It uses NOS Telefunken C3G tubes in the output stage . . . . I have been assured it takes the qualities of that chip and the NOS approach to a new level with these particular tubes. While everyone has been raving about the new breed of R2R DAC's (which I don't doubt) I thought I might tread a different path and try a redesign of a classic analogue sounding chip. I've never seen or heard this implementation with these (very rare and special) tubes. As we're on some DAC chat I couldn't contain my excitement any longer. It may be good it may be crap but it'll be fun finding out. Should be here this week fingers crossed. I have one of these at the opposite end of your spectrum 😂
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,560
|
Post by optical on Jun 9, 2021 14:33:30 GMT
I've got a custom built (huge power supply) TDA1541 NOS DAC in the pipeline. It uses NOS Telefunken C3G tubes in the output stage . . . . I have been assured it takes the qualities of that chip and the NOS approach to a new level with these particular tubes. While everyone has been raving about the new breed of R2R DAC's (which I don't doubt) I thought I might tread a different path and try a redesign of a classic analogue sounding chip. I've never seen or heard this implementation with these (very rare and special) tubes. As we're on some DAC chat I couldn't contain my excitement any longer. It may be good it may be crap but it'll be fun finding out. Should be here this week fingers crossed. I have one of these at the opposite end of your spectrum 😂 I tried the mk3 version (I think) of those . . . . found it to be rather unexciting. Also that uses the TDA1543 chip (which I found okay in other DAC's) and doesn't by all accounts have the same 'analogue' signature. Having heard a few CD players with TDA1541's I reckon it will lay most other NOS DAC's out cold (hopefully anyway).
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2021 14:38:05 GMT
I have one of these at the opposite end of your spectrum 😂 I tried the mk3 version (I think) of those . . . . found it to be rather unexciting. Also that uses the TDA1543 chip (which I found okay in other DAC's) and doesn't by all accounts have the same 'analogue' signature. Having heard a few CD players with TDA1541's I reckon it will lay most other NOS DAC's out cold (hopefully anyway). Yeah, TBF I find it to be pretty good. Admittedly it's not playing in the same game as Soekris, but it's not going to. Interesting decision you've made there. I'd love a listen
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,560
|
Post by optical on Jun 9, 2021 14:47:54 GMT
I tried the mk3 version (I think) of those . . . . found it to be rather unexciting. Also that uses the TDA1543 chip (which I found okay in other DAC's) and doesn't by all accounts have the same 'analogue' signature. Having heard a few CD players with TDA1541's I reckon it will lay most other NOS DAC's out cold (hopefully anyway). Yeah, TBF I find it to be pretty good. Admittedly it's not playing in the same game as Soekris, but it's not going to. Interesting decision you've made there. I'd love a listen As ever horses for systems mate . . . It wasn't in my current system (so could easily find a home in another I'm sure) but up against some other (more expensive) competition at the time, it ultimately lost out. The design alone means it's going to sound decent, negating the need for a big power supply (which my new one has!). Some kit others have described as bland or unexciting has wowed me and vice versa. Yes plan is to get a DAC I'm happy to 'tour' with too as if it's as good as I'm told it should be a nice alternative to some of the best SS/Delta/Sabre/R2R DAC's etc. My old man has an Opera Consonance CD player with the same chip and a lot of recordings sound like vinyl but cleaner. Dynamics are huge.
|
|