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Post by misterc on Oct 19, 2020 18:48:02 GMT
This is where a real time analyzer pays dividends, you can use a waterfall plot and dispersal graphs to identify the room modes, first reflections and secondary hard surface ear drilling (and naim is not involved here  ) Just be aware that you do require some diffusion at higher frequencies otherwise you end up with a mixing booth or What Hifi old listening room @ Teddington which was so dead they felt that a naim 300 amp was the pinnacle of high frequency reproduction  . They was zero after ring on your phone just dead sound eerie almost like a Salisbury finest attempting to make music! Room treatment can pay dividends, yet also screw things up badly I use three panels only two large bass traps for the big speaker demo's and one large 6 foot absorber (above 400Hz) to take out the large radiator first reflections other wise it's pretty clean panel wise. Panels can help a greatly you just know how to use them correctly. |
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Post by macca on Oct 19, 2020 18:54:02 GMT
You could try sitting them on sandboxes.
Take two cat litter trays, fill two plastic bags with dry sand, and hammer them flat and level so they fill the trays.
Then use granite, or bamboo or whatever chopping boards sat on the sand - but not quite touching the edge of the tray in any spot.
That should stop any vibration into the floor boards. Sand is pretty effective at soaking up vibration because every single grain has to be set in motion. And it would only cost £30 in materials, absolute tops.
IMO coupling is not the way to go with speakers, I don't like these boingy, swaying things either.
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Post by stevew on Oct 19, 2020 18:58:24 GMT
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Post by stevew on Oct 19, 2020 18:59:37 GMT
Yeah... definitely boingy swayey things
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Post by stevew on Oct 19, 2020 19:01:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2020 19:30:26 GMT
Won’t your slippers and socks muffle the sound?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 19, 2020 19:41:38 GMT
Won’t your slippers and socks muffle the sound? Haha, classic |
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Post by rexton on Oct 19, 2020 19:57:32 GMT
You could try sitting them on sandboxes. Take two cat litter trays, fill two plastic bags with dry sand, and hammer them flat and level so they fill the trays. Then use granite, or bamboo or whatever chopping boards sat on the sand - but not quite touching the edge of the tray in any spot. That should stop any vibration into the floor boards. Sand is pretty effective at soaking up vibration because every single grain has to be set in motion. And it would only cost £30 in materials, absolute tops. IMO coupling is not the way to go with speakers, I don't like these boingy, swaying things either. I added Kilo's of kiln dried sand in my ATACAMA speaker stands, doubled the weight of the speaker stands in the end. Paid dividends. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 19, 2020 20:30:45 GMT
This is where a real time analyzer pays dividends, you can use a waterfall plot and dispersal graphs to identify the room modes, first reflections and secondary hard surface ear drilling (and naim is not involved here ) Just be aware that you do require some diffusion at higher frequencies otherwise you end up with a mixing booth or What Hifi old listening room @ Teddington which was so dead they felt that a naim 300 amp was the pinnacle of high frequency reproduction . They was zero after ring on your phone just dead sound eerie almost like a Salisbury finest attempting to make music! Room treatment can pay dividends, yet also screw things up badly I use three panels only two large bass traps for the big speaker demo's and one large 6 foot absorber (above 400Hz) to take out the large radiator first reflections other wise it's pretty clean panel wise. Panels can help a greatly you just know how to use them correctly. I wouldn't even know where to start, Tony. I just had this urge to try and resolve the slightly skewed soundstage, which has always been to the left, where the corner of the room is. It gets trapped in the corner with the piano side. It worked but went a lot further than I expected. I'm sure some fiddling about would make things even better, but for the next few days I'll just have a listen as they are. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 19, 2020 20:31:23 GMT
You could try sitting them on sandboxes. Take two cat litter trays, fill two plastic bags with dry sand, and hammer them flat and level so they fill the trays. Then use granite, or bamboo or whatever chopping boards sat on the sand - but not quite touching the edge of the tray in any spot. That should stop any vibration into the floor boards. Sand is pretty effective at soaking up vibration because every single grain has to be set in motion. And it would only cost £30 in materials, absolute tops. IMO coupling is not the way to go with speakers, I don't like these boingy, swaying things either. Why don't you like the spring type of feet? |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 19, 2020 21:30:25 GMT
It might make you reflect on that evening at steves and you said DAVE sounded like a scapel I think I recollect. The hyper detail surgical sound was made even more so by the massive room treatment. Steve has nailed the aspects that needed to be sorted so that ultimately you hear pretty much everything that is there in the recording and not reflected mush or bass that is out of control. It is a doubled edged sword however as you may learn the truth about some parts of your system or indeed recordings and realise that some of the acoustic information you had before added something agreeable to the mix?
When the room acoustics are totally nailed as in Steves world everything is laid completely bare and there is nowhere for anything to hide. Think of an electric guitar and an amplifier. Guitarists like distortion and smearing some of the sound because of some of the extra stuff that is mixed in sounds great however a lot of guitarists like the fact they can do this because they dont have to be as good as Julian Bream!
Room acoustics is of course the elephant in the room most of us dont address properly unless you go to Steves level however even a little treatment can go a long way and in your case Oli I dont think you will need too much in a room that small. Bass of course is the hardest to deal with as you usually need masses of damping to make a significant difference.
Nw you have experienced some of the effects yourself you may ponder how much you could learn from another visit to Steves. His place is not really about the equipment its all about the room! lol
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Post by macca on Oct 19, 2020 21:50:44 GMT
You could try sitting them on sandboxes. Take two cat litter trays, fill two plastic bags with dry sand, and hammer them flat and level so they fill the trays. Then use granite, or bamboo or whatever chopping boards sat on the sand - but not quite touching the edge of the tray in any spot. That should stop any vibration into the floor boards. Sand is pretty effective at soaking up vibration because every single grain has to be set in motion. And it would only cost £30 in materials, absolute tops. IMO coupling is not the way to go with speakers, I don't like these boingy, swaying things either. Why don't you like the spring type of feet? The speaker needs to be rigid IMO and on those things they wobble from side to side. You make some gains but you take some losses too. It's a trade off. A sand tray solves all the problems with no drawbacks except maybe WAF. Or you could try the hard rubber washing machine feet. I'm using 3 under each of my B&O speakers as they are sat on a wooden cabinet. Works very well, and they only cost three quid in Lidl. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 19, 2020 23:07:26 GMT
It might make you reflect on that evening at steves and you said DAVE sounded like a scapel I think I recollect. The hyper detail surgical sound was made even more so by the massive room treatment. Steve has nailed the aspects that needed to be sorted so that ultimately you hear pretty much everything that is there in the recording and not reflected mush or bass that is out of control. It is a doubled edged sword however as you may learn the truth about some parts of your system or indeed recordings and realise that some of the acoustic information you had before added something agreeable to the mix? When the room acoustics are totally nailed as in Steves world everything is laid completely bare and there is nowhere for anything to hide. Think of an electric guitar and an amplifier. Guitarists like distortion and smearing some of the sound because of some of the extra stuff that is mixed in sounds great however a lot of guitarists like the fact they can do this because they dont have to be as good as Julian Bream! Room acoustics is of course the elephant in the room most of us dont address properly unless you go to Steves level however even a little treatment can go a long way and in your case Oli I dont think you will need too much in a room that small. Bass of course is the hardest to deal with as you usually need masses of damping to make a significant difference. Nw you have experienced some of the effects yourself you may ponder how much you could learn from another visit to Steves. His place is not really about the equipment its all about the room! lol Well, like we said at the time, Jim.....The that listening sessiin felt like an assault on the ears at times.....but lets not forget, we also diagnosed that in truth it was either the amp or the speakers that were at fault for what we heard. And as the speakers have since departed, i think we have no doubt! And yes i agree, i don't think i need to go too much further with things in here, but i have to. I think there is an aspect of learning available that may make another trip to Steve's worthwhile, but i am wondering how translatable what he has done to his warehouse would be to a front room of 3x4m or 5x6m when they are traditional brick built rooms? Steve has a room inside a warehouse and it's got no standard exterior construction to contend with. If he had done what he has done in a house, then i would be very enthusiastic to delve into his mind....not that i dont think he has knowledge on what i have planned! I learned something more interesting here, in my little experiments at home.....No matter how many of these monstrously large acoustic panels i stuck in the room, the tonal quality never suffered. The sound only improved in its transparency, it's delineation and for want of a better phrase, there was less bleed between individual instrument. Less blur or smear. It was SOOOOOOO revealing that i had to keep going back to check i wasnt imagining things. Some would say my system sounded more forensic today than it ever has, and they would be right! Forensic.....but not sterile. But at the heart of it and in the listening, the soul remained present. This means the fundamental quality of my system is better than i have known, until now. which is pleasing. It also means that it's probably capable of much more and that too pleases me as i hope to have somewhere more suitable for the system to reside in the near future. I have been building this system for some time with the idea in mind that it would migrate to a bigger space. I am now pretty convinced i have more than enough quality in the gear i have. What i need to do, is to figure out how far is TOO far and to how to recognise it so when i get my big project going, i am ready to treat the room and know what i am doing. Today has been a good start. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 19, 2020 23:09:27 GMT
Why don't you like the spring type of feet?
A sand tray solves all the problems with no drawbacks except maybe WAF. Or you could try the hard rubber washing machine feet. I'm using 3 under each of my B&O speakers as they are sat on a wooden cabinet. Works very well, and they only cost three quid in Lidl. Well i kind of guessed you would prefer rigid mounting, but i don't know why. What disadvantage is a wobbly platform going to give a speaker that was measure most likely in the same way? Or is that not right? Pretty sure they measured Kef Blades that way?? I could be wrong, it is late |
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Post by misterc on Oct 20, 2020 10:13:22 GMT
Chord Dave musical no....................................................... not in 55 light years all leading edge and solid two dimensions at best, it really isn't that detailed, It project the illusion of detail by highlighting the leading edge definition much in the same way the dac64 did back in the day (almost 20 years ago how old did I feel  ) This device gives the illusion of being cutting edge detail retrieval and a BIG sound, well it majors on leading edge detail and a solid two dimensional sound which creates a wow factor that subsides after 20 minutes or so into a not so pleasant experience. Its a one trick pony at best. Though a nice looking jeweled case and a port hole. Did write a long post but the PC swallowed it  . The M-scaler uses PGFA arrays to number crunch which take a lot of power the crappy 15Vdc 4amp yes 4 amp! smps makes a lot of noise, I know having built specialist power supplies for this M-scaler which are over 100 times quieter at load. I believe Noel Keywood was tasked with coming up with a alternative power supply for the M scaler by JF earlier in the year They are many dac's out there in that price range which do a far better job at musical reproduction than the Dave D............................................................................................................Decidedly A............................................................................................................Average V............................................................................................................Vivid E.............................................................................................................Ear syringing |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 20, 2020 10:21:14 GMT
Chord Dave musical no....................................................... not in 55 light years all leading edge and solid two dimensions at best, it really isn't that detailed, It project the illusion of detail by highlighting the leading edge definition much in the same way the dac64 did back in the day (almost 20 years ago how old did I feel ) This device gives the illusion of being cutting edge detail retrieval and a BIG sound, well it majors on leading edge detail and a solid two dimensional sound which creates a wow factor that subsides after 20 minutes or so into a not so pleasant experience. Its a one trick pony at best. Did write a long post but the PC swallowed it . The M-scaler uses PGFA arrays to number crunch which take a lot of power the crappy 15Vdc 4amp yes 4 amp! smps makes a lot of noise, I know having built specialist power supplies for this M-scaler which are over 100 times quieter at load. I believe Noel Keywood was tasked with coming up with a alternative power supply for the M scaler by JF earlier in the year They are many dac's out there in that price range which do a far better job at musical reproduction that the Dave D............................................................................................................Decidedly A............................................................................................................Average V............................................................................................................Vivid E.............................................................................................................Ear syringing Know of anything better that is working class affordable? |
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Post by misterc on Oct 20, 2020 10:36:35 GMT
Oli
Can you give a definition of affordability please
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 20, 2020 10:42:49 GMT
Oli Can you give a definition of affordability please Anything between £500-1500 I think is probably affordable to most Audiophiles, with a bit of saving time. |
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Post by macca on Oct 20, 2020 11:41:01 GMT
The speaker needs to be rigid IMO and on those things they wobble from side to side. You make some gains but you take some losses too. It's a trade off.
A sand tray solves all the problems with no drawbacks except maybe WAF. Or you could try the hard rubber washing machine feet. I'm using 3 under each of my B&O speakers as they are sat on a wooden cabinet. Works very well, and they only cost three quid in Lidl. Well i kind of guessed you would prefer rigid mounting, but i don't know why. What disadvantage is a wobbly platform going to give a speaker that was measure most likely in the same way? Or is that not right? Pretty sure they measured Kef Blades that way?? I could be wrong, it is late I'm not aware that they use wobbly platforms in anechoic chambers, pictures just show a small suspended platform with the speaker sat on it. I think that with supports like the Gaia and Townsend although the speaker cannot move front to back I reckon there will still be some side to side motion caused by the drive units moving, when you don't want any movement at all. I'd expect some loss of impact in the sound, albeit slight. But why compromise? Plus they are expensive. re the Chord/KEF Blade system - I'd bet anything that the problem with that system was not the loudspeakers. Unless you count a good loudspeaker being able to show up problems upstream as being the loudspeaker's fault. |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 20, 2020 12:15:21 GMT
Chord Dave musical no....................................................... not in 55 light years all leading edge and solid two dimensions at best, it really isn't that detailed, It project the illusion of detail by highlighting the leading edge definition much in the same way the dac64 did back in the day (almost 20 years ago how old did I feel ) This device gives the illusion of being cutting edge detail retrieval and a BIG sound, well it majors on leading edge detail and a solid two dimensional sound which creates a wow factor that subsides after 20 minutes or so into a not so pleasant experience. Its a one trick pony at best. Though a nice looking jeweled case and a port hole. Did write a long post but the PC swallowed it . The M-scaler uses PGFA arrays to number crunch which take a lot of power the crappy 15Vdc 4amp yes 4 amp! smps makes a lot of noise, I know having built specialist power supplies for this M-scaler which are over 100 times quieter at load. I believe Noel Keywood was tasked with coming up with a alternative power supply for the M scaler by JF earlier in the year They are many dac's out there in that price range which do a far better job at musical reproduction than the Dave D............................................................................................................Decidedly A............................................................................................................Average V............................................................................................................Vivid E.............................................................................................................Ear syringing Well thats put the boot into DAVE. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 20, 2020 12:21:23 GMT
Well i kind of guessed you would prefer rigid mounting, but i don't know why. What disadvantage is a wobbly platform going to give a speaker that was measure most likely in the same way? Or is that not right? Pretty sure they measured Kef Blades that way?? I could be wrong, it is late I'm not aware that they use wobbly platforms in anechoic chambers, pictures just show a small suspended platform with the speaker sat on it. I think that with supports like the Gaia and Townsend although the speaker cannot move front to back I reckon there will still be some side to side motion caused by the drive units moving, when you don't want any movement at all. I'd expect some loss of impact in the sound, albeit slight. But why compromise? Plus they are expensive. re the Chord/KEF Blade system - I'd bet anything that the problem with that system was not the loudspeakers. Unless you count a good loudspeaker being able to show up problems upstream as being the loudspeaker's fault. No, they were YG speakers, not blades |
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 20, 2020 13:04:47 GMT
Chord dacs, soft dome tweeters absolutely required.
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Post by electronumpty on Oct 20, 2020 13:13:38 GMT
Chord dacs, soft dome tweeters absolutely required. And ear plugs *cough* "allegedly" |
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Post by misterc on Oct 20, 2020 16:17:16 GMT
No, they were YG speakers Oh, that explains quite a bit  , probably the Carmel II's not quite as bad as Magico but not far off!  Having owned pretty much all of them including the Sonja II and bass module etc, quite entertaining in an uber hifi way, zip all music to my ears, but others may love them, that's the joy of audio it is so subjective. Have even listened to the Carmel MK II's with the big Moon mono's (which are about as far away for in yer face as you can get this side of Vitus) and it was still semi fierce even then and the system cost as north of £130K I genuinely could not stay in the room for more than 3 minutes. I once exhibited at a dealer event using a Chord Dave, Innous, Kef Reference stand mounts and a Chord Integrated amplifier with a mountain of Chord (cables not electronics) Sarum T array and the sound was polar opposites to how the Dave usually sounds. It was ultra safe and almost pipe and slippers  it was equally as bad but in the other direction. Which is quite a feat, it did take a while to work out what was causing the 'Un-Chord like sound' got then in the end, it was the cabling, put some quality cabling in and normal service was resumed with the Dave et al. Just goes to show how perception and system matching makes a significant difference imho |
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Post by misterc on Oct 20, 2020 16:19:33 GMT
Oli Can you give a definition of affordability please Hi Oli Is high resolution playback essential? Does it have to be new? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 20, 2020 16:21:09 GMT
No, they were YG speakers Oh, that explains quite a bit , probably the Carmel II's not quite as bad as Magico but not far off! Having owned pretty much all of them including the Sonja II and bass module etc, quite entertaining in an uber hifi way, zip all music to my ears, but others may love them, that's the joy of audio it is so subjective. Have even listened to the Carmel MK II's with the big Moon mono's (which are about as far away for in yer face as you can get this side of Vitus) and it was semi fierce even then and the system cost as north of £130K I genuinely could not stay in the room for more than 3 minutes. I once exhibited at a dealer event using a Chord Dave, Innous, Kef Reference stand mounts and a Chord Integrated amplifier with a mountain of Chord (cables not electronics) Sarum T array and the sound was polar opposites to how the Dave usually sounds. It was ultra safe and almost pipe and slippers it was equally as bed but in the other direction. Which is quite a feat, it did take a while to work out what was causing the 'Un-Chord like sound' got then in the end, it was the cabling, put some quality cabling in and normal service was resumed with the Dave et al. Just goes to show how perception and system matching makes a significant difference imho The ones we heard were the Hailey's Regardless of price, they weren't for me.  |
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Post by misterc on Oct 20, 2020 16:45:48 GMT
Owwwwwwwwwwwww, out of all of them if you had to have them the Sonja's (they have a fair stab at producing bass rather than just inner wax removal) are bearable, Though for that money (Hailey 2's close to £50K) a quality pair of speaker can had with some decent change to put on a house deposit. Did you know the sale director of YG is called Dick Diamond he is a nice chap but its his real name "How many pairs can I put you down for the? opening order $300K" I remember of the last conversation I had with him |
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Post by macca on Oct 20, 2020 17:22:52 GMT
At the price of them £300K would only get you one of each model. Might not even stretch to that!
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Post by misterc on Oct 20, 2020 17:35:15 GMT
At the price of them £300K would only get you one of each model. Might not even stretch to that! Hi Martin No that was an opening order although ion USD for being the distributors for YG about four years ago, we politely declined, not before four others did the same With the amount actually sold in the UK happy we did not venture down that path thank you. The previous distributor of YG is a good friend so we know the real figures up to before the current distributors took over. The factory tour of YG is quite something I believe. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 20, 2020 18:52:09 GMT
Well a second session of listening with the Acoustic Panels in place has knocked me on my arse.
Clarity, clarity, clarity.
Simply put, it's improved everything (no surprise) I literally can't think of anything that hasn't improved....
The articulation in the LF is really pulling me in. The amount of smearing and blotting on the soundstage prior to these has been highlighted now and for me there is NO going back.... phenomenal
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. They was zero after ring on your phone just dead sound eerie almost like a Salisbury finest attempting to make music! 
)
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, probably the Carmel II's not quite as bad as Magico but not far off!