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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 18:22:51 GMT
To be honest, I have been in your situation where digital sounds great, and the vinyl does not get used. That changes, and a few weeks later I don’t turn the digital on.
Personally, I would keep the vinyl until you are 100% certain you want to go digital, and then wait a little longer before you sold it.
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Post by antonio on Dec 5, 2019 18:47:33 GMT
Whatever you do don't spend £4K on a digital set up. Total waste of money. My brother does not think he's wasted his money. He started off with an Arcam Alpha and has gradually upgraded to a dCS system over 30+ years. It is only the same as someone starting off with a Rega 1 and moving up the ladder. I will add, we thought it would never get any better than his Audio Research cd3, a fantastic player, compared it to the top Naim and other players at the time, but inevitably it was bettered although at a cost. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 18:52:15 GMT
That richness that you find isn't there as much with digital is the thing that in time you will realise you need.
The novelty of it not being there will soon become a minus instead of a plus and you'll find your feet not moving.
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Post by antonio on Dec 5, 2019 19:09:14 GMT
I have always enjoyed vinyl, but get the right, for you, digital set-up and you may find you will not miss vinyl. I much prefer the more accurate PT tt I now have compared to my previous LP12, so why not continue in that vein and go digital.
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Post by macca on Dec 5, 2019 19:20:02 GMT
Whatever you do don't spend £4K on a digital set up. Total waste of money. My brother does not think he's wasted his money. He started off with an Arcam Alpha and has gradually upgraded to a dCS system over 30+ years. It is only the same as someone starting off with a Rega 1 and moving up the ladder. I will add, we thought it would never get any better than his Audio Research cd3, a fantastic player, compared it to the top Naim and other players at the time, but inevitably it was bettered although at a cost. My thinking is that there is a limit to how good digital can get. Not the same as a turntable which is mechanical engineering and has to deal with a whole host of factors that affect the sound. Always room for improvement in every area if you chuck enough money and time at it, and with a pickup cartridge being such a sensitive device a possibility that you will hear the improvement too. Then you've got the phono stage and the supporting stand/isolation stuff too. The perfect turntable does not exist whereas perfect digital is pretty trivial. If your bro's happy with what he's got and gets a lot of use out of it then he's not wasted his money. But I don't think you need to go to DCS expense to get the best from digital. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 19:37:19 GMT
My brother does not think he's wasted his money. He started off with an Arcam Alpha and has gradually upgraded to a dCS system over 30+ years. It is only the same as someone starting off with a Rega 1 and moving up the ladder. I will add, we thought it would never get any better than his Audio Research cd3, a fantastic player, compared it to the top Naim and other players at the time, but inevitably it was bettered although at a cost. My thinking is that there is a limit to how good digital can get. Not the same as a turntable which is mechanical engineering and has to deal with a whole host of factors that affect the sound. Always room for improvement in every area if you chuck enough money and time at it, and with a pickup cartridge being such a sensitive device a possibility that you will hear the improvement too. Then you've got the phono stage and the supporting stand/isolation stuff too. The perfect turntable does not exist whereas perfect digital is pretty trivial. If your bro's happy with what he's got and gets a lot of use out of it then he's not wasted his money. But I don't think you need to go to DCS expense to get the best from digital. I’d have to hear something like the DCS in a highly capable system before I could form an opinion on that one. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 5, 2019 20:13:43 GMT
To be honest, I don't think I've actually felt as happy with vinyl since I sold the BB phonostage.
There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the LP5.3rs and I enjoy what it does but I think that my connection, via the phonostage, has left me a little disconnected in its absence.
Having an "off the shelf item" doesn't do anything for me and I think that's having a large effect.
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 5, 2019 22:30:56 GMT
Stuff you build just sounds better, even if it doesn't.
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 5, 2019 22:45:42 GMT
Stuff you build just sounds better, even if it doesn't. I think there's a lot of truth in that, Simon. Admittedly, I haven't built any of my system now, but the fact it's all very modified or off the beaten track, really turns me on to it. The phonostage is like a pair of smart black shoes on a clown. It doesn't really fit in with the rest of the system. Even the speakers are so rare, people didn't even Know they existed. I like things that aren't normal. Even the TT isn't standard and soon will be even further away from standard, with a whole new custom bearing assembly. The PMAT1010 is going to be modded further still. I can't talk about that yet.... I'm not allowed to lol. I think I need to build another phonostage which is madness because the LP5.3rs is easily as good in real terms. I think I just need the oddity. |
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Post by brian2957 on Dec 6, 2019 8:29:03 GMT
I like things that aren't normal.
But you ain't normal mate lol .
No word on getting the hand fixed yet ?
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Post by firebottle on Dec 6, 2019 9:23:46 GMT
'But you ain't normal mate'. Ha ha, class.
Would you like to borrow my Bigbottle? It's ideal for the KB at around 200 ohms loading.
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 6, 2019 9:52:58 GMT
I like things that aren't normal. But you ain't normal mate lol . No word on getting the hand fixed yet ? lol, no I am not normal in the slightest. Edit:20.1.20 for the hand operation. Cant wait lol |
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 6, 2019 9:54:03 GMT
'But you ain't normal mate'. Ha ha, class. Would you like to borrow my Bigbottle? It's ideal for the KB at around 200 ohms loading. Could do, couldn't I. Save me the aggro of building one for a test lol |
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Post by dsjr on Dec 6, 2019 11:55:01 GMT
That richness that you find isn't there as much with digital is the thing that in time you will realise you need. The novelty of it not being there will soon become a minus instead of a plus and you'll find your feet not moving. That richness ain't there on any master recordings I've heard and is in my book, always an added artefact on many domestic vinyl sources. You want 'digital' to have tonal richness - CHANGE YOUR SPEAKERS! Harbeth owners never complain for example - and some even use vinyl as a main source too... Just sayin' - don't shoot the messenger.. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 13:19:43 GMT
I like things that aren't normal. But you ain't normal mate lol . No word on getting the hand fixed yet ? lol, no I am not normal in the slightest. 20.1.19 for the hand operation. Cant wait lol Going to the hospital on a DeLorean? |
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Post by macca on Dec 6, 2019 13:25:09 GMT
It's Jan 2119 - NHS waiting list a lot longer than commonly thought.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 13:53:34 GMT
I like things that aren't normal. But you ain't normal mate lol . No word on getting the hand fixed yet ? lol, no I am not normal in the slightest. 20.1.19 for the hand operation. Cant wait lol That's nearly a year ago.  |
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 6, 2019 14:17:26 GMT
lol, no I am not normal in the slightest. 20.1.19 for the hand operation. Cant wait lol That's nearly a year ago. Hahaha, bugger |
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 6, 2019 14:17:56 GMT
lol, no I am not normal in the slightest. 20.1.19 for the hand operation. Cant wait lol Going to the hospital on a DeLorean? Lol, good grief. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 14:49:23 GMT
That richness that you find isn't there as much with digital is the thing that in time you will realise you need. The novelty of it not being there will soon become a minus instead of a plus and you'll find your feet not moving. That richness ain't there on any master recordings I've heard and is in my book, always an added artefact on many domestic vinyl sources. You want 'digital' to have tonal richness - CHANGE YOUR SPEAKERS! Harbeth owners never complain for example - and some even use vinyl as a main source too... Just sayin' - don't shoot the messenger.. You mean the actual master or "things" created from it?
My Tone Poets seem rich enough to me that have been created from the master unless that's what you mean of course. Having said that the whole Joe Harley/Kevin Gray ethos on these is to give us what is on the master hence the "warblegate" issues with Andrew Hill's piano on Blackfire. That's there because it IS on the master....
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Post by dsjr on Dec 6, 2019 15:20:26 GMT
I meant the actual master.
In the days before 'digital,' master recordings had a kind of lean 'dryness' to them compared to vinyl - I'm talking generically as all vinyl decks then added a kind of rosy halo to the playback sound, this even before Linn effed it with the LP12/Ittok 'fruitbox' exaggerations. Sure vinyl's got rather better and cartridges seem to distort slightly less I think, but generally, many even modern vinyl playback 'systems' from turntable to phono stage, do seem to sexy-up the original sound generally and it's this that people miss when going over to 'digital.'
I'm speaking generally, but still feel this is correct. I'm kind of equating this added 'halo' to the even spray of harmonic distortion that many 'musical' amplifiers seemed to have, although I have no way of confirming or proving this. All these 'subjective/musical' sounding products usually measured terribly and for decades, I believed the ways of reducing distortion in the better measuring designs was what took or diluted this 'musicality' away. I'm honestly not so sure now as I heard an active speaker system using Hypex amp modules (using massive amounts of negative feedback apparently) that sounded musical, involving, almost sweet yet 'clean as a whistle' as active can be.
Hmmm...
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 6, 2019 17:34:38 GMT
What amps did they have on the tweeters....;-)
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Post by dsjr on Dec 6, 2019 18:28:01 GMT
Kii Three's use six Ncore 250W modules each apparently! Can't remember which ones specifically, but the total sound surprised me greatly.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 15:33:52 GMT
Before you ditch the analogue Oli, have a rethink about those emotional moments you have posted about (like Eric Clapton Unplugged if I remember correctly) and give it time to see if digital can do that for you. There is still something special about vinyl done well, even if it is a faff making sure it is done well.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 15:39:07 GMT
Before you ditch the analogue Oli, have a rethink about those emotional moments you have posted about (like Eric Clapton Unplugged if I remember correctly) and give it time to see if digital can do that for you. There is still something special about vinyl done well, even if it is a faff making sure it is done well. I’ve ditched vinyl (and all my records) several times. Every time it’s ended up coming back at extra cost and hassle. Kevin is right to point out the need for pause and contemplation. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 8, 2019 16:28:32 GMT
It's mainly impatience, tbh
I have non and hate waiting but talki g to the family and they said the same. I played vinyl all afternoon and loved it.
I've got some stuff coming up so will see what happens then and Tbh, I may make a move up the cartridge ladder a bit.
We'll see but yes, good point gents.
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Post by dsjr on Dec 8, 2019 16:46:51 GMT
Oli, please don't even THINK about flogging your vinyl setup as you'll probably never get another the same in properly working condition - most SP10's were electronically wrecked in hard working broadcast use and the supplies are now often in various states of knackeredness and like the Roksan first issue, not always easy to fix. I can't speak for the arm, which was a fair to middling thing when new and un-modified but you've spent a bit having it souped up to lord knows what level (I'm not being sarcy and haven't heard it but trying to put some kind of value to it) and you have a cartridge you like - maybe you should buy a VM95ML as a standby for use with any half decent phono stage (likes of me slum-it with a Rega Carbon [posh AT91], but you get the idea). Seriously sir, if you flog it, I guarantee you'll regret it deeply in time, as I do over selling my NAS Mentor deck and arm for next to nowt back in 1995 (I feel almost as bad about selling it as I do the big ATC speakers - hell, I saw the half size to mine model in their boxes this last week and these looked huge too)
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 8, 2019 17:38:28 GMT
Oli, please don't even THINK about flogging your vinyl setup as you'll probably never get another the same in properly working condition - most SP10's were electronically wrecked in hard working broadcast use and the supplies are now often in various states of knackeredness and like the Roksan first issue, not always easy to fix. I can't speak for the arm, which was a fair to middling thing when new and un-modified but you've spent a bit having it souped up to lord knows what level (I'm not being sarcy and haven't heard it but trying to put some kind of value to it) and you have a cartridge you like - maybe you should buy a VM95ML as a standby for use with any half decent phono stage (likes of me slum-it with a Rega Carbon [posh AT91], but you get the idea). Seriously sir, if you flog it, I guarantee you'll regret it deeply in time, as I do over selling my NAS Mentor deck and arm for next to nowt back in 1995 (I feel almost as bad about selling it as I do the big ATC speakers - hell, I saw the half size to mine model in their boxes this last week and these looked huge too) The Arm is a monster now, Dave. Far removed from the paranoia of Japanese arms back in the day. The work Angus does to these is quite ridiculous in its level of engineering. He's a highly skilled man with engineering prowess. Oh, there is another step forward now available for it which lowers bearing friction even further. The SP10, especially the ones Angus has sold, are pretty much irreplaceable. The electronics are all serviced and replaced by like for like components and the PSU is built for each one by Angus, unless you are lucky enough to have an original and even then, he services that too. The days of Panzerholtz plinths and SP10s from Angus are over. He has one left to do, and he's not doing anymore after it. But that's when the real fun starts. There will be a brand new, purpose built bearing assembly for the SP10, which is now so close to being ready, I can smell it. Over two years of planning has gone into it. I will be one of the first to hear it, and possibly have it installed. There is also a next level to this bearing but its scarily close to being a "one wrong move, and this is fucked" situation. The new bearing will be thoroughly tested and then if the result is as expected, the next one up may be attempted. Also, there is more in store for the PMAT1010. I'm not allowed to talk about that yet lol. However, that will undoubtedly be something I have done too. As Firebottle said to me earlier "with all of this going on, why would you sell the analogue side?" Impatient swine, aren't I. I really want to take the journey with the arm and TT combo so I'm gonna build another BigBottle and also build one of Angus's Avalon phonostages when they are ready to be made. Flirtation over. Patience is what I really need. |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 8, 2019 18:00:19 GMT
Oli, please don't even THINK about flogging your vinyl setup as you'll probably never get another the same in properly working condition - most SP10's were electronically wrecked in hard working broadcast use and the supplies are now often in various states of knackeredness and like the Roksan first issue, not always easy to fix. I can't speak for the arm, which was a fair to middling thing when new and un-modified but you've spent a bit having it souped up to lord knows what level (I'm not being sarcy and haven't heard it but trying to put some kind of value to it) and you have a cartridge you like - maybe you should buy a VM95ML as a standby for use with any half decent phono stage (likes of me slum-it with a Rega Carbon [posh AT91], but you get the idea). Seriously sir, if you flog it, I guarantee you'll regret it deeply in time, as I do over selling my NAS Mentor deck and arm for next to nowt back in 1995 (I feel almost as bad about selling it as I do the big ATC speakers - hell, I saw the half size to mine model in their boxes this last week and these looked huge too) The Arm is a monster now, Dave. Far removed from the paranoia of Japanese arms back in the day. The work Angus does to these is quite ridiculous in its level of engineering. He's a highly skilled man with engineering prowess. Oh, there is another step forward now available for it which lowers bearing friction even further. have you heard the one with the bearing mod? when you say available now,do you mean its ready? |
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 8, 2019 19:14:29 GMT
The Arm is a monster now, Dave. Far removed from the paranoia of Japanese arms back in the day. The work Angus does to these is quite ridiculous in its level of engineering. He's a highly skilled man with engineering prowess. Oh, there is another step forward now available for it which lowers bearing friction even further. have you heard the one with the bearing mod? when you say available now,do you mean its ready? I believe Angus has done the bearing mod on his arm and one he sold last weekend but no, I haven't heard it yet. I don't need to, I just want it lol |
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