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Post by pete on Oct 29, 2022 11:25:43 GMT
A cracking vinyl front end there Bigman80 . Glad it is all installed and working as it should be. I agree with robbiegong , it isn't a case of the best possible for me, it is what I can sit and really enjoy, enjoyment and thinking 'wow' that's great (or better) is what I want. I feel very, very pleased with my vinyl parts of the system. Digital wise I am the same as rexton , enjoying my CD player, with small upgrades to it as I think of them. It is not like vinyl, it is no where near like vinyl, but I enjoy it and there is more than enough to feel moved and make me feel satisfied - and more - as Rob puts it so well. SU10 sounds like a good way to go.... for now anyway  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2022 11:32:37 GMT
Yeah it's seemingly more hopeless than I'd originally thought. I can get GOOD digital...but not Vinyl beating digital. I'm starting to think it doesn't exist. Forget the 'beating' mindset Olster, it's irrelevant, a smokescreen and distraction. For me it's about satisfaction, the music, being moved.... My vinyl front end brings great joy and satisfaction, as does the cdp front end, comparison and 'beating' plays no part, as I say, irrelevant, unnecessary distraction. Oh, don't get me wrong Rob, i am not trying to beat Viny with digital or vice versa, but i am looking for a performance that brings me as much joy as vinyl. I was just stating those differences and the experience a bit more in depth as it could be interpreted as rose tinted glasses etc. Which it isn't. |
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Post by rexton on Oct 29, 2022 12:31:05 GMT
Forget the 'beating' mindset Olster, it's irrelevant, a smokescreen and distraction. For me it's about satisfaction, the music, being moved.... My vinyl front end brings great joy and satisfaction, as does the cdp front end, comparison and 'beating' plays no part, as I say, irrelevant, unnecessary distraction.
Very good post. My system probably sounds rubbish compared to others but I have had virtually 0% interest in changing any of my components, of which I've had for approaching twenty years. The reason is very simple. I'm very happy with how things sound in my environment. I'm always more than happy to try and tweak what I own, I can always reverse any mods so that I've not lost what I originally had. I'm tinkering with MONO stuff at the moment.
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Post by antonio on Oct 29, 2022 12:47:34 GMT
Nice write up there Oli, pleased you are back enjoying your SP10. The Soekris is doing fine in my brothers system at the moment while his dCS is away.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Oct 29, 2022 15:07:05 GMT
Oli, what do you listen to via these DACs, Streaming? Maybe using one of these DACs on the end of your CD transport would get you somewhere near. Assuming you bother with CDs.
I don't have any plans as far as 'computer audio' goes. I much prefer owning my music to the idea of paying someone every month to play from their library. Vinyl and CD only for me - I know, I'm such a luddite, but reading your experiences with the various DACs just strengthens my resolve:)
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2022 15:26:11 GMT
Oli, what do you listen to via these DACs, Streaming? Maybe using one of these DACs on the end of your CD transport would get you somewhere near. Assuming you bother with CDs. I don't have any plans as far as 'computer audio' goes. I much prefer owning my music to the idea of paying someone every month to play from their library. Vinyl and CD only for me - I know, I'm such a luddite, but reading your experiences with the various DACs just strengthens my resolve:) I use a Digibit Aria, which houses 2x2TB SSD. Stored files all bought and paid for. Technically there are no moving parts, so performance should be optimal over a CD transport.....so goes the argument. I've tried CD transports....no different outcome. |
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Oct 29, 2022 15:34:22 GMT
Oli, what do you listen to via these DACs, Streaming? Maybe using one of these DACs on the end of your CD transport would get you somewhere near. Assuming you bother with CDs. I don't have any plans as far as 'computer audio' goes. I much prefer owning my music to the idea of paying someone every month to play from their library. Vinyl and CD only for me - I know, I'm such a luddite, but reading your experiences with the various DACs just strengthens my resolve:) I use a Digibit Aria, which houses 2x2TB SSD. Stored files all bought and paid for. Technically there are no moving parts, so performance should be optimal over a CD transport.....so goes the argument. I've tried CD transports....no different outcome. Ah, right, vinyl it is then... nowt wrong with that, especially with your rig, which to be fair sets the bar pretty high. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2022 15:36:21 GMT
I use a Digibit Aria, which houses 2x2TB SSD. Stored files all bought and paid for. Technically there are no moving parts, so performance should be optimal over a CD transport.....so goes the argument. I've tried CD transports....no different outcome. Ah, right, vinyl it is then... nowt wrong with that, especially with your rig, which to be fair sets the bar pretty high. I do feel as though I've given Digital a fair crack of the whip. I'll not abandon it complete as it has its uses, but vinyl is back and it's staying. |
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Post by gninnam on Oct 29, 2022 15:43:13 GMT
Ah, right, vinyl it is then... nowt wrong with that, especially with your rig, which to be fair sets the bar pretty high. I do feel as though I've given Digital a fair crack of the whip. I'll not abandon it complete as it has its uses, but vinyl is back and it's staying. I knew you would come back to the fold  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2022 16:07:21 GMT
I do feel as though I've given Digital a fair crack of the whip. I'll not abandon it complete as it has its uses, but vinyl is back and it's staying. I knew you would come back to the fold I am back...fully. |
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Post by antonio on Oct 29, 2022 16:10:52 GMT
Maybe you will have to try a CEC cd transport.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2022 16:29:26 GMT
Maybe you will have to try a CEC cd transport. No, I don't think so. I've done CD. Done streaming....done File storage. File storage is my preference. |
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Post by jandl100 on Oct 29, 2022 17:00:39 GMT
Yay, well done. I'm pleased for you, Oli. Home again at last. For many folks vinyl really is the answer. You never quite seemed to settle down for an extended period with digital. Always a niggle or two at the least. Now you can just relax with the music knowing there's nothing more to be done. Hahaha.  I knew I couldn't type that last bit and keep a straight face. |
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Post by antonio on Oct 29, 2022 17:07:16 GMT
@jandl He's in the same contented boat as you now Jerry, no need to change anything. |
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Post by jandl100 on Oct 29, 2022 17:21:39 GMT
Exactly.
Happy bunnies.
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Post by jimbo on Oct 29, 2022 19:04:22 GMT
It probably never really went away as I can see from your later posts you were just waiting for it to return.  Oli, you know my views fairly well regarding vinyl and digital as I have written at fair length about it here and there over the years! I have never disregarded Digital as I know what it can achieve at many levels and for many folk it is just the ticket for many reasons. Each have there own merits but you probably know that I listen to vinyl 95% of the time and for good reason. Like you I have tried to make digital work and have begged and borrowed lots of equipment over the years and been lucky enough to learn a lot of what can be achieved through other friends who have thrown lots of time and money at it but in every case I have returned very quickly back to vinyl. I no longer argue which medium is best as this has been done to death and if digital floats your boat in any form then it is right for you as is vinyl. But technical arguments aside there is something still fundamentally different between the two. I feel that in many areas digital outperforms vinyl however for me the most important difference was that connection to the music which cannot be measured in any way other than what goes on in your head and heart and ears and for me that illusive factor is the crucial point of vinyl. If you are sensitive enough to make this connection then all arguments are worthless. When you have been without vinyl for as long as you were and only listened to digital then returning back to it must have been quite a moment. Remember I listened to digital exclusively for 25 years then heard vinyl played at a friends house and the experience for me was so dramatic I never recovered! |
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Post by stevew on Oct 29, 2022 19:21:07 GMT
Good to see you back Jim.
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Post by robbiegong on Oct 29, 2022 19:56:54 GMT
and a pity you couldn't have held on to that Winny ..... |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2022 21:11:03 GMT
But technical arguments aside there is something still fundamentally different between the two. I feel that in many areas digital outperforms vinyl however for me the most important difference was that connection to the music which cannot be measured in any way other than what goes on in your head and heart and ears and for me that illusive factor is the crucial point of vinyl. If you are sensitive enough to make this connection then all arguments are worthless. When you have been without vinyl for as long as you were and only listened to digital then returning back to it must have been quite a moment. Remember I listened to digital exclusively for 25 years then heard vinyl played at a friends house and the experience for me was so dramatic I never recovered! Hi Jim, Nice to see you post again. I think you have summed it up very nicely. The only little gripe i have (not with you) is that people seem to automatically surmise that a preference for vinyl is somehow due to a romantic notion, or ritualistic reason, when here the preference is purely sound quality. I really do feel than in most of the parameters i listen for, vinyl is coming out on top. You make a really good point in regard to the way the music is received and how it makes you feel. A wise fella told me recently that communication isn't about what YOU say, it's about how well THEY receive it, and i think that applies here. My brain, and i think yours too, receive the message in a more acceptable way from vinyl than we do digital. As you say, digital can outperform vinyl in many areas, yet that message does not land as sweetly as listening to vinyl via a Lenco 75 and an AT95! Thankfully i don't have to suffer that in reality lol Anyway, good to see you post and thanks for that comment....it really does make sense of what i am thinking. |
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Post by electronumpty on Oct 29, 2022 21:12:36 GMT
and a pity you couldn't have held on to that Winny ..... Go on , rub it in why don't you 🤣 |
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Post by robbiegong on Oct 29, 2022 21:17:14 GMT
and a pity you couldn't have held on to that Winny ..... Go on , rub it in why don't you 🤣 |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2022 22:17:51 GMT
Go on , rub it in why don't you 🤣 Rob, yeah.....do I now regret selling the Winny? No. I needed this time to really give digital a fair crack, and the fear of the Winny wearing down was greater than my desire to play it. The other issue was that I wasn't hearing ENOUGH of a difference between the Soekris 2541 and the Winny to feel like it was money well spent. That said, I should be hearing a Winny Ti on Wednesday. That will tell me a lot about how the Lyra ranks against it and whether I need to push the boat out in Vinyl again. The new speakers are a gateway between the music and the mind's eye, so I genuinely feel like I am now hearing what should be heard. If a Winny doesn't make sense in this setup now, it never will. |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 30, 2022 6:57:31 GMT
But technical arguments aside there is something still fundamentally different between the two. I feel that in many areas digital outperforms vinyl however for me the most important difference was that connection to the music which cannot be measured in any way other than what goes on in your head and heart and ears and for me that illusive factor is the crucial point of vinyl. If you are sensitive enough to make this connection then all arguments are worthless. When you have been without vinyl for as long as you were and only listened to digital then returning back to it must have been quite a moment. Remember I listened to digital exclusively for 25 years then heard vinyl played at a friends house and the experience for me was so dramatic I never recovered! Hi Jim, Nice to see you post again. I think you have summed it up very nicely. The only little gripe i have (not with you) is that people seem to automatically surmise that a preference for vinyl is somehow due to a romantic notion, or ritualistic reason, when here the preference is purely sound quality. I really do feel than in most of the parameters i listen for, vinyl is coming out on top. You make a really good point in regard to the way the music is received and how it makes you feel. A wise fella told me recently that communication isn't about what YOU say, it's about how well THEY receive it, and i think that applies here. My brain, and i think yours too, receive the message in a more acceptable way from vinyl than we do digital. As you say, digital can outperform vinyl in many areas, yet that message does not land as sweetly as listening to vinyl via a Lenco 75 and an AT95! Thankfully i don't have to suffer that in reality lol Anyway, good to see you post and thanks for that comment....it really does make sense of what i am thinking. Thanks Oli and I hope to post a bit more often here. It is often mentioned in many articles commenting on vinyl that the ritualistic aspects of vinyl playback are a key part of its allure. I find this part of playing vinyl a ball ache along with all the necessary cleaning, turntable set up etc etc not to mention the many problems with vinyl itself such as poorly pressed records, groove noise, dust, static.... the list seems endless and I dont enjoy any of that. I would much rather sit down with my mobile/ipad and swipe through music without all the hard work involved setting up and actually playing a record. But even so taking all this into account I would rather go through with this to listen to music that I can connect with so easily and which lights up the brain and evokes an emotional response which feels so natural and right. With vinyl your enjoyment of the music comes easily, with digital I always feel a tension and that my brain is somehow working harder to process it? That is until your come across a scratch on your record that was never there before then the red mist decends, the language turns blue and the enjoyment turns quickly to anger and frustration! |
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Post by firebottle on Oct 30, 2022 7:08:57 GMT
Is this a peculiar thing or not?
Knowing that vinyl replay can be compromised by dirty grooves, surface noise and pops and clicks from scratches, I find it easier to ignore these imperfections, if present, and just listen to the music.
Many others only hear the imperfections. Yet with digital one is expecting a perfect quiet background so are imperfections in digital replay more obvious to your expectations?
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Post by jimbo on Oct 30, 2022 7:28:27 GMT
Is this a peculiar thing or not? Knowing that vinyl replay can be compromised by dirty grooves, surface noise and pops and clicks from scratches, I find it easier to ignore these imperfections, if present, and just listen to the music. Many others only hear the imperfections. Yet with digital one is expecting a perfect quiet background so are imperfections in digital replay more obvious to your expectations? Interesting looking at vinyl playback in this way, accepting all its problems. I am with you on this one Alan in that although I can hear the background noise of clicks and pops they dont disturb my listening and I automatically filter them out unless they become too intrusive and cause the diamond rock to leave the plastic highway! Inversely digital has a deathly silence and so music feels more exposed as it were. Strangely even taking into consideration all the noise that vinyl can create when I listen to music it seems to come from a deeper blacker background than digital even though its meant to have no noise at all! Our hearing is our most basic and probably our most sophisticated sense and science is discovering we don't just hear with our ears but also with the bones in our head and maybe more? The mechanisms of hearing have evolved over millions of years and are our first defence against possible danger and as such we dont fully understand everything we hear entirely. As we know music has a fundamental importance to humans and there is a connection directly between hearing and emotion and memory and we know instinctively if something moves us or feels alien and wrong. Trying to work out how all this actually works in our perception of sound I think is still not fully understood but somewhere in there is the reason why I find a distinction between listening to the rock in the groove or the jumble of 0101010. |
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Post by gninnam on Oct 30, 2022 7:57:46 GMT
Some good observations being put forward in this thread.
40plus years of listening to music on my own systems and I was late coming to the digital fold - only happened as I was moving into some digs so bought a portable CD player (that could also work in the car via the cassette player) and the convenience was a revelation, but the sound in those days was too clinical and cold (this was the end of the 80's).
Never not had a vinyl rig in my system and always will. I love it when I put on a record, sit down and get immersed in the aural pleasures it gives me - I still love the convenience of digital (whether that is CD or streaming) but always have preferred the sound I get from records (like above, even with some of them providing the clicks and pops which you just accept like women buying shoes and bags).
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Oct 30, 2022 8:21:06 GMT
It probably never really went away as I can see from your later posts you were just waiting for it to return. Oli, you know my views fairly well regarding vinyl and digital as I have written at fair length about it here and there over the years! I have never disregarded Digital as I know what it can achieve at many levels and for many folk it is just the ticket for many reasons. Each have there own merits but you probably know that I listen to vinyl 95% of the time and for good reason. Like you I have tried to make digital work and have begged and borrowed lots of equipment over the years and been lucky enough to learn a lot of what can be achieved through other friends who have thrown lots of time and money at it but in every case I have returned very quickly back to vinyl. I no longer argue which medium is best as this has been done to death and if digital floats your boat in any form then it is right for you as is vinyl. But technical arguments aside there is something still fundamentally different between the two. I feel that in many areas digital outperforms vinyl however for me the most important difference was that connection to the music which cannot be measured in any way other than what goes on in your head and heart and ears and for me that illusive factor is the crucial point of vinyl. If you are sensitive enough to make this connection then all arguments are worthless. When you have been without vinyl for as long as you were and only listened to digital then returning back to it must have been quite a moment. Remember I listened to digital exclusively for 25 years then heard vinyl played at a friends house and the experience for me was so dramatic I never recovered! Sounds like you've been giving it some thought  Good post. |
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Oct 30, 2022 8:49:21 GMT
Some good observations being put forward in this thread. 40plus years of listening to music on my own systems and I was late coming to the digital fold - only happened as I was moving into some digs so bought a portable CD player (that could also work in the car via the cassette player) and the convenience was a revelation, but the sound in those days was too clinical and cold (this was the end of the 80's). Never not had a vinyl rig in my system and always will. I love it when I put on a record, sit down and get immersed in the aural pleasures it gives me - I still love the convenience of digital (whether that is CD or streaming) but always have preferred the sound I get from records (like above, even with some of them providing the clicks and pops which you just accept like women buying shoes and bags). Probably because changing sides or tracks when playing vinyl is such a pain, we begin our listening with a more committed mindset. As opposed to digital, where it is too easy to channel-hop. Just my theory. I don't think we can understate the part our minds play in the whole "hifi chain". I'm sure we have all had times where things just don't sound quite right, even though nothing has been changed in the set up. And may be why we can sometimes be caught up with a song coming on a cheap crappy radio. |
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Post by firebottle on Oct 30, 2022 9:32:21 GMT
Is this a peculiar thing or not? .. somewhere in there is the reason why I find a distinction between listening to the rock in the groove or the jumble of 0101010. Getting geeky if the digital is on CD then (0)0101010 could never exist. There has to be two 00 between every 1 to make the laser and optics life easier. Look up EFM, eight to fourteen modulation. The coding is a non return to zero type where the 1 or 0 is encoded as a change rather than a level. All clever stuff by Philips and Sony in the day. |
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Oct 30, 2022 9:51:38 GMT
.. somewhere in there is the reason why I find a distinction between listening to the rock in the groove or the jumble of 0101010. Getting geeky if the digital is on CD then (0)0101010 could never exist. There has to be two 00 between every 1 to make the laser and optics life easier. Look up EFM, eight to fourteen modulation. The coding is a non return to zero type where the 1 or 0 is encoded as a change rather than a level. All clever stuff by Philips and Sony in the day. I was going to link to an illustration about this, to show how tech-savvy I really am. But unfortunately I don't know how to post pics on here  Stupid bloody computers |
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I knew I couldn't type that last bit and keep a straight face. 
Good post.
Stupid bloody computers