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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 10:09:10 GMT
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Post by macca on Jun 3, 2019 11:28:01 GMT
Pricey though.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 11:44:19 GMT
Certainly looks the Biz.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 11:44:56 GMT
Yes not cheap but good potential.
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Post by macca on Jun 3, 2019 11:59:49 GMT
You could buy the N-Core modules and knock your own up?
I'm suspicious of these class D things, even the ones that have been independently tested and show superb results. I mean regardless of measured performance all amps have some sort of character and if you can't live with it long term it's wasted money.
Geoff has just loaned me one to try out, I'll see how that goes.
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Post by sq225917 on Jun 3, 2019 15:53:04 GMT
Could be good. but.... the NC500 OEM boards have worse specs than the DIY version 400 boards do. Ignore the bollocks about input stages, that's all crap, the OEM boards and cost engineered down and have worse SNR, THD and IMD than the 400's when built up correctly.
I used NC400 mono's with linear PSU when i was building my MOD86P (bridged) and the Ncores have tighter bass, drier, but sound sythetic in the upper mids and treble compared the Mod86p.
Also that Hattor layout will rob you of about 6db of SNR. Ncores need to be built as mono's with super short speaker output cables, everything twisted hard and tight, putting the volume controller within ten mm of the switching reg stages is a poor idea. At very least they should be shielded from the attenuator.
Will it sound good, yup it'll be great, but it could so easily be better...
You could build better yourself Oli.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 16:11:19 GMT
Could be good. but.... the NC500 OEM boards have worse specs than the DIY version 400 boards do. Ignore the bollocks about input stages, that's all crap, the OEM boards and cost engineered down and have worse SNR, THD and IMD than the 400's when built up correctly. I used NC400 mono's with linear PSU when i was building my MOD86P (bridged) and the Ncores have tighter bass, drier, but sound sythetic in the upper mids and treble compared the Mod86p. Also that Hattor layout will rob you of about 6db of SNR. Ncores need to be built as mono's with super short speaker output cables, everything twisted hard and tight, putting the volume controller within ten mm of the switching reg stages is a poor idea. At very least they should be shielded from the attenuator. Will it sound good, yup it'll be great, but it could so easily be better... You could build better yourself Oli. Thanks for that Si. Your comment about synthetic sound has put me right off. Looks like I'll be heading off down the Modulus route eventually, if I pluck up the courage to flog the Krell lol |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 16:13:48 GMT
You could buy the N-Core modules and knock your own up? I'm suspicious of these class D things, even the ones that have been independently tested and show superb results. I mean regardless of measured performance all amps have some sort of character and if you can't live with it long term it's wasted money. Geoff has just loaned me one to try out, I'll see how that goes. Numerous folks have been banging on at me about the modulus stuff. I am so so so tempted just to flog the Krell and have a go but that fear of making the wrong move is seriously holding me back. First time in my hifi life I've been afraid to pull the trigger. |
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Post by dsjr on Jun 3, 2019 16:37:47 GMT
I don't get this, sorry! You have a classic amp that with a minimum of servicing is giving you great musical pleasure and lots of kudos on the forums. Why the eff do you even THINK about flogging it to go for something totally unknown you'll have difficulty in moving on anywhere near what you'd spent on it?
Synthetic sound? I didn't get that from Simon to be honest - lean and properly tight doesn't mean synthetic to me, where 'organic, colourful and musical' usually means something's happening to cause this effect and measurements usually show this. A recent ASR test on the Nord One power amp did confirm the vibe that the NC400 boards are the best and also showed the way for the twin supplies to be laid out for best performance - or not if you read through the following posts. I gather Bruno Putzeys has moved on now and I believe I read he's threatening even better designs.
In many ways, amp distortion is a non-event these days as speakers in general are thirty or more db worse in second and third order distortion I gather, than most amps these days. |
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Post by macca on Jun 3, 2019 17:01:56 GMT
You could buy the N-Core modules and knock your own up? I'm suspicious of these class D things, even the ones that have been independently tested and show superb results. I mean regardless of measured performance all amps have some sort of character and if you can't live with it long term it's wasted money. Geoff has just loaned me one to try out, I'll see how that goes. Numerous folks have been banging on at me about the modulus stuff. I am so so so tempted just to flog the Krell and have a go but that fear of making the wrong move is seriously holding me back. First time in my hifi life I've been afraid to pull the trigger. Keep the Krell and buy the other stuff anyway. I recall there was something called a credit card that I used back in the day when I wasn't sure about making a leap of faith. I agree with Dave you already got one of the best power amps ever. The class D would have to be phenomenal to beat it. If you want to do a build I'd suggest doing some speakers. Right time of year for it. |
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Post by macca on Jun 3, 2019 17:08:54 GMT
In many ways, amp distortion is a non-event these days as speakers in general are thirty or more db worse in second and third order distortion I gather, than most amps these days. Good speakers tend to be below 0.1 percent distortion in the bass if not overdriven. still loads more than a decent amp. It's the type of distortion though. Listening to the XTZ versus the Krell, with a simple mix they can't be told apart, XTZ is lovely and sweet. With a busy mix the Krell stays sweet and the XTZ hardens up - just a touch but enough that you care. That's intermodulation distortion I reckon. Of all the distortions that's the one you really don't want because it always sounds bad. |
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Post by alit on Jun 3, 2019 17:21:43 GMT
Oli, don’t rush in to anything, I’ll send you my monos to try in a couple of weeks or so.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 18:18:58 GMT
Oli, don’t rush in to anything, I’ll send you my monos to try in a couple of weeks or so. Don't worry Ali, I am not rushing this decision and probably won't do anything before I hear something that does something better. I've reached that point in my hifi journey. I also have to build myself a new phonostage as someone wants to buy mine so I have a project to keep me busy. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 18:22:40 GMT
I don't get this, sorry! You have a classic amp that with a minimum of servicing is giving you great musical pleasure and lots of kudos on the forums. Why the eff do you even THINK about flogging it to go for something totally unknown you'll have difficulty in moving on anywhere near what you'd spent on it?
Synthetic sound? I didn't get that from Simon to be honest - lean and properly tight doesn't mean synthetic to me, where 'organic, colourful and musical' usually means something's happening to cause this effect and measurements usually show this. A recent ASR test on the Nord One power amp did confirm the vibe that the NC400 boards are the best and also showed the way for the twin supplies to be laid out for best performance - or not if you read through the following posts. I gather Bruno Putzeys has moved on now and I believe I read he's threatening even better designs.
In many ways, amp distortion is a non-event these days as speakers in general are thirty or more db worse in second and third order distortion I gather, than most amps these days. Dave, truth be known, I have been on half rations at work since my motorbike accident in January and recently the Dr decided that I do need surgery. First on my shoulder, then on my hand once I'm O er the shoulder surgery. With rehab etc, I am facing 12 more months of half rations. Whilst I am lucky that I even get that from my employer and we can afford to live from it, I feel guilty every time I listen to the Krell. Sucking all the electricity lol. The hot tub does the same but everyone enjoys that and it helps with my recovery. I suppose its guilt. |
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Post by dsjr on Jun 3, 2019 18:52:10 GMT
In many ways, amp distortion is a non-event these days as speakers in general are thirty or more db worse in second and third order distortion I gather, than most amps these days. Good speakers tend to be below 0.1 percent distortion in the bass if not overdriven. still loads more than a decent amp. It's the type of distortion though. Listening to the XTZ versus the Krell, with a simple mix they can't be told apart, XTZ is lovely and sweet. With a busy mix the Krell stays sweet and the XTZ hardens up - just a touch but enough that you care. That's intermodulation distortion I reckon. Of all the distortions that's the one you really don't want because it always sounds bad. I'd like to see proof of a typical domestic speaker bass distortion of that low level. I agree about intermod, but I haven't seen the measurements or opinions on how the thing clips. |
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Post by dsjr on Jun 3, 2019 18:59:05 GMT
Oliver - PLEASE don't knee-jerk!
Been there, done it and shed plenty of tears after. I bet your 'half rations' is better than my complete (I have friends who's mortgage is more than my monthly income and we only survive because we own our house).
The Krell should come on song sonically pretty quickly I think, so it shouldn't need to be on all the time. They're climbing in value now along with other desirable gear and if you needed to flog summat, I'd get rid of that techie deck as a, all it can play is the shitty black plastic discs so beloved of audiophiles and hipsters and b, I bet you could find a vintage DD for far less but with similar sonics, which wouldn't look as good I admit.. I know you wouldn't do this, but that Krell is all but irreplaceable, even if a top spec D class amp as discussed would blow it into the weeds technically.
I can't afford to be in this club, but vintage cars do similar things. A modern sporty Fiesta or similar would see off most 50's/early 60's exalted sports confection as well as being safer in handling, but it ain't the same...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 19:06:53 GMT
Oliver - PLEASE don't knee-jerk! Been there, done it and shed plenty of tears after. I bet your 'half rations' is better than my complete (I have friends who's mortgage is more than my monthly income and we only survive because we own our house). The Krell should come on song sonically pretty quickly I think, so it shouldn't need to be on all the time. They're climbing in value now along with other desirable gear and if you needed to flog summat, I'd get rid of that techie deck as a, all it can play is the shitty black plastic discs so beloved of audiophiles and hipsters and b, I bet you could find a vintage DD for far less but with similar sonics, which wouldn't look as good I admit.. I know you wouldn't do this, but that Krell is all but irreplaceable, even if a top spec D class amp as discussed would blow it into the weeds technically. I can't afford to be in this club, but vintage cars do similar things. A modern sporty Fiesta or similar would see off most 50's/early 60's exalted sports confection as well as being safer in handling, but it ain't the same... Ha, you're right of course. Sell the Techie?!!! Oh no. That's a forever item here. I paid much less than the current prices for the TT, purpose built psu, Panzerholtz plinth and the arm. It's not something I'd even consider unless we were in real need. I don't leave the Krell on generally as, like you say, it comes in song very quickly. The wife has told me to focus O. Converting the garage and worry less about our income. I think she wants me up the garden lol |
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Post by macca on Jun 3, 2019 21:21:51 GMT
Good speakers tend to be below 0.1 percent distortion in the bass if not overdriven. still loads more than a decent amp. It's the type of distortion though. Listening to the XTZ versus the Krell, with a simple mix they can't be told apart, XTZ is lovely and sweet. With a busy mix the Krell stays sweet and the XTZ hardens up - just a touch but enough that you care. That's intermodulation distortion I reckon. Of all the distortions that's the one you really don't want because it always sounds bad. I'd like to see proof of a typical domestic speaker bass distortion of that low level. I agree about intermod, but I haven't seen the measurements or opinions on how the thing clips. I did say good speakers, not typical speakers. The IMF TLS series have less than .1 distortion and they are from the seventies! You need size and big and/or multiple drivers though. I'm not talking about those rinky dink little speakers with stunt bass and 10 percent distortion if you crank them up. |
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Post by alit on Jun 3, 2019 21:29:08 GMT
According to the Acoustica website, the H2 measures 0.2-0.3% THD at 90db down to 100hz, and 0.1% at the top end. Not bad.
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Post by antonio on Jun 4, 2019 5:19:42 GMT
Sorry to hear you are going to have surgery. Sure you'll do the right thing regarding the Krell.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 4, 2019 6:29:03 GMT
I'd suggest Ollie gets hold of a well cared for Quad 306 or even 606 and uses that if the Krell needs to go into storage for a short while. Similar smooth sound if not as controlled or powerful (606 is well over 200WPC into a 4 ohm load) and certainly not as good looking  They run barely warm too and are an updater's dream :lol: If not butchered, they'll hold value too. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 6:53:34 GMT
I'd suggest Ollie gets hold of a well cared for Quad 306 or even 606 and uses that if the Krell needs to go into storage for a short while. Similar smooth sound if not as controlled or powerful (606 is well over 200WPC into a 4 ohm load) and certainly not as good looking They run barely warm too and are an updater's dream :lol: If not butchered, they'll hold value too. The 306 makes a great back-up power amp, it also sounds a bit more open to my ears than the 606. My 306 was bought as a back-up, but somehow has now become my main amp since I sold the rest. Of course, as a back-up, I have...........another 306!  The little TPA3116 amps are not to be sniffed at either. They'll drive any normal speakers easily and sound remarkably good doing it. I'm keeping quiet as to how they compare with the Quad power amps. |
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Post by antonio on Jun 4, 2019 7:04:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 7:41:16 GMT
Sorry to hear you are going to have surgery. Sure you'll do the right thing regarding the Krell. Yeah, I am not looking forward to it but I do need it. Im at less than 50% of full range of movement on the left hand according to those in the know so I have to have it done. The shoulder isn't as much work but they still need to stabilise my shoulder with aritificial tendons. I did a proper job they said lol.
The Krell is ok where it is for the time being. I have a Burson Bang poweramp I had completely forgotten about so I will plumb that in for a few weeks and use the time to service the Krell a bit.
The Burson is actually really good and as it cost me nothing, it owes me nothing.
I have the Bang with V6 Classic, here for the specs:
www.bursonaudio.com/products/bang/
I suppose I should stick a LPSU up it and see what happens.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 7:51:12 GMT
I have read of a few people selling their Krell's and other huge amplifiers for thee Nord amps. I did contact a seller on ebay and offered him £1400 for his Nord Monoblocks but he took them offline. This was about 2 months back.
I am intrigued by the Nord stuff though.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 4, 2019 17:00:16 GMT
Look on ASR for an increasing number of reviews of an intrusive technical nature. They've tested some serious power amps almost the same distortion and noise as a top DAC, but that means 'ordinary amps' look 'awful' in comparison and there's a bit of a numbers game started up. Thing is, Class D amps may well use noise shaping to keep the audio band clear, but all manner of Sh#t happens over a few hundred kHz, which won't damage tweeters or anything, but needs care to minimise nonetheless. Nord is British, so servicing shouldn't be an issue. Most decent dacs these days have extra supply isolation stuff going on inside them it seems and linear power supplies don't improve things at all. It would also appear that smps supplies aren't as 'dirty' as once they were either, although on my geriatric twin supply dac with an old Caiman smps on the audio feed, I use an S-Booster I got from Mark Grant. I'm 'convinced' I thought it slightly better with the S-booster, but haven't done loads of A-B comparisons - music gets in the way too much...
Quad 306 nicer sounding than a 606? Not on your life mate, but I only really knew 606's as new items*, not twenty to thirty years old with suspect provenance. I bloody hated the (to me, limp wristed) 306 but have doubts as to whether it was the 34 fecking it up and/or just lack of power... I did take care with absolute phase as well bit this was more fundamental.
*The last 606mk1 and 606mk2's had a different transformer and larger supply caps. No idea what else may have been done on the boards, but later ones sounded fresh and spacious right out of the box and a cold switch-on. Earlier ones seemed to need a couple of hours to remove a kind of 'grain' from the reproduction. There can still be a trace of crossover distortion according to Noel Keyward, but whether this is audible I have no idea.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 18:37:18 GMT
My experience with class D switching amps has been relativity positive, sound wise, except everyone had a mid range glare, all a bit rough in the upper mids.
No doubt they will get there.
The biggest draw back to me is the use of IC's if one goes good luck finding one or a board. They strike me to be future door stops. Throw away items like modern cars and all the other junk people worship.
Hell they have a religion based on bloody Star Wars, how about one that worships the Apple, seems we are there to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 18:46:26 GMT
My experience with class D switching amps has been relativity positive, sound wise, except everyone had a mid range glare, all a bit rough in the upper mids. No doubt they will get there. The biggest draw back to me is the use of IC's if one goes good luck finding one or a board. They strike me to be future door stops. Throw away items like modern cars and all the other junk people worship.Hell they have a religion based on bloody Star Wars, how about one that worships the Apple, seems we are there to me. I agree about modern cars. None will become 'classics', they are just sanitised equvalents to white goods these days and about as meaningful as washing machines. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 5, 2019 7:14:00 GMT
Modern cars are as vile as I have ever seen. They look like a photo-fit of rejected parts.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 7:17:10 GMT
My experience with class D switching amps has been relativity positive, sound wise, except everyone had a mid range glare, all a bit rough in the upper mids. No doubt they will get there. The biggest draw back to me is the use of IC's if one goes good luck finding one or a board. They strike me to be future door stops. Throw away items like modern cars and all the other junk people worship.Hell they have a religion based on bloody Star Wars, how about one that worships the Apple, seems we are there to me. I agree about modern cars. None will become 'classics', they are just sanitised equvalents to white goods these days and about as meaningful as washing machines. But But But I love my Samsung Top loader, what else can wash Sh#t off a blanket so well............................ |
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They run barely warm too and are an updater's dream :lol: If not butchered, they'll hold value too.
