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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 19:55:37 GMT
I had Alan visit today with the Coherent RTZ grounding box. I must say straight off the bat that I didn't know what to expect. I use a BMU for all parts except the amplifier (Krell KSA 100 MK2) which is plugged directly into the wall.
The Source was Vinyl via my SP10 MK2/Kontrapunkt B/PMAT1010
Phonostage was the Bigbottle into the DCB1 preamp.
We started off with a track I know very well:
Paul Simon - Under African Skies
We did an acclimatization of the system without the RTZ in the system before we got going.
We put the box in and started the track again. Instantly I could hear that the box was having an effect.
At the end of the track, Alan and I discussed what we each heard. Alan felt the bass got tighter but I didn't feel it was "tighter" I actually felt the bass had hardened and wasn't quite as descriptive.
We decided to play the track again.
After the second, more intent listen, I had more concerns. The transients had been lost and the (artificially reproduced) room acoustics on the recording were missing. I suspected this in the first evaluation but was sidetracked by focusing on the effect it had on the bass.
Again we discussed what we heard.
I was absolutely convinced that the normally cavernous soundstage had gone, the chest cavity was no longer audible and everything sounded a little flat.
We then took the RTZ grounding box out.
As I suspected, the sounstage returned to its huge size, transients returned and to be honest, it was just better all round.
The ambience and detail was completely sucked out by the RTZ and I am totally perplexed by it.
We then tried: David Bowie - Stoned Love
I picked this track because of the hand claps at the start, and the large amount of reverb on the track.
Again, with the RTZ in circuit, it was flat. The reverb didn't decay, it just didn't happen and in the end Alan told me to turn it off. It just sounded Sh#t. We tried it again without the box and all of a sudden we were listening to a great track, full of layers and depth. It was not subtle. I'm very serious about that.
Obviously, there will be claims of "in a balanced system" and all that jazz, but this system IS balanced. It IS high quality. It is a superb tool at revealing the qualities of anything you plug into it. Nothing is able to hide in the chain. I complied it to be exactly that. Revealing.
I can only surmise that the suspicions I had before it came here, that if you properly sort the mains out, either by a BMU or some megastructure in your garden, it's unlikely to have such a large effect.
In Alan's system, the result is totally the opposite. It helps his system to perform better but here it killed everything. Alan's had better space in the soundstage and definitely appeared more revealing. I think I now need to revisit Alan's system and do the same tracks there.
What I can now say, CONCLUSIVELY, is that it does do something. It just may not be entirely desirable.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 20:02:47 GMT
So it's Sh#t then......I could have told you that without testing it.
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 21, 2019 20:08:47 GMT
Well, it did something...
Thanks for taking the time to write up your experiences.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 20:20:24 GMT
No Sh#t...
It's system-dependant, then.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 20:21:27 GMT
It's not been successful here Jammy but as I said, it's beneficial to Alan's system which is very enjoyable but very different to mine.
To surmise that it's Sh#t, wouldn't be a fair conclusion. It may be system dependant but what it is dependent on that system needing for it to be successful, I don't know.
It would have crippled me to spend £1k+ on that and ended up with what I heard today. Luckily Alan has had a better result.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 20:21:51 GMT
No Sh#t... It's system-dependant, then. Dependant on what though! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 20:23:40 GMT
Well, it did something... Thanks for taking the time to write up your experiences. It did do something. That's twice I've heard it and in different systems. Both occasions it was clearly audible. Improvement was subtlety presented at Alan's but once heard, undeniable. Here, the effect was pronounced. Just not for the better. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 20:27:52 GMT
 I am gutted. I have just found a suitable box big enough to start my project. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 21, 2019 20:28:38 GMT
Has Alan tried your BMU in his system?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 20:33:30 GMT
View AttachmentI am gutted. I have just found a suitable box big enough to start my project. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 20:34:22 GMT
Has Alan tried your BMU in his system? No, not yet. We did suggest that should be on the agenda. |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 21, 2019 21:17:49 GMT
Do you run a DC blocker Oli?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 22:24:42 GMT
Do you run a DC blocker Oli? No mate. No DC blocker. |
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Post by alit on Feb 21, 2019 23:30:48 GMT
Perhaps the BMU has something to do with it?
Might be worth trying it again without the BMU.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2019 0:03:05 GMT
So it's Sh#t then......I could have told you that without testing it. So thats’s what’s in the box! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 0:18:24 GMT
Perhaps the BMU has something to do with it? Might be worth trying it again without the BMU. You could be right and it's kind of the conclusion that we came to although I have no idea why. The BMU cost me £100 or less to build. The RTZ in its entirety costs £1300ish I'm happy to stick with my BMU as I feel the price Vs reward is far superior, but would do the comparison from an interest pov. Leave it with me. |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 22, 2019 1:27:04 GMT
The BMU has a measurable benefit - usually (doesn't matter who makes them, but a bought one of suitable size is a very few hundred quid if you don't mind the metal box and fittings). Add a few cheap ferrites on key mains cables and you've saved a fortune and got a genuinely measurable possible difference even before you've listened to anything.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 6:08:02 GMT
So it's Sh#t then......I could have told you that without testing it. So thats’s what’s in the box! Yup a great big dollop of Bullshit. System dependent / DC blockers / BMU's.....................😂 |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 7:38:30 GMT
The BMU has a measurable benefit - usually (doesn't matter who makes them, but a bought one of suitable size is a very few hundred quid if you don't mind the metal box and fittings). Add a few cheap ferrites on key mains cables and you've saved a fortune and got a genuinely measurable possible difference even before you've listened to anything. If it does for Alan's system, what It does for mine, it's a great advert for BMUs. I also have another bit of kit I'll get him to try, more on that later. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 9:06:10 GMT
It will be interesting to hear what Alan thinks of a BMU in his system. He may regret spending so much if the BMU does the job.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2019 9:36:42 GMT
It will be interesting to hear what Alan thinks of a BMU in his system. He may regret spending so much if the BMU does the job. Imagine if the BMU improves the system and at the same time makes the grounding box have a negative effect? It would smart a bit, but Alan is clearly an honest guy who would report what he heard, He would also go away and try to figure out what the heck was happening. It wouldn’t be the first time one component had altered a system’s balance and changed the perception of another component. The difference with these things is that they may not be so easily sold on. I might be wrong on this, but flogging a used passive box that nobody knows the contents of, together with cables that don’t carry signal doesn’t give you many tools to work with. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 22, 2019 9:53:16 GMT
It will be interesting to hear what Alan thinks of a BMU in his system. He may regret spending so much if the BMU does the job. Imagine if the BMU improves the system and at the same time makes the grounding box have a negative effect? It would smart a bit, but Alan is clearly an honest guy who would report what he heard, He would also go away and try to figure out what the heck was happening. It wouldn’t be the first time one component had altered a system’s balance and changed the perception of another component. The difference with these things is that they may not be so easily sold on. I might be wrong on this, but flogging a used passive box that nobody knows the contents of, together with cables that don’t carry signal doesn’t give you many tools to work with. I wouldn't be without the BMU now. It replaced a pile of Russ Andrews filters etc. I think the latter treated the symptoms of mains problems rather than the causes. The RA stuff was easy to sell on, though, established brand...and their prices rise often and fast so I got back more than I had bought them for secondhand! |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2019 10:02:26 GMT
Imagine if the BMU improves the system and at the same time makes the grounding box have a negative effect? It would smart a bit, but Alan is clearly an honest guy who would report what he heard, He would also go away and try to figure out what the heck was happening. It wouldn’t be the first time one component had altered a system’s balance and changed the perception of another component. The difference with these things is that they may not be so easily sold on. I might be wrong on this, but flogging a used passive box that nobody knows the contents of, together with cables that don’t carry signal doesn’t give you many tools to work with. I wouldn't be without the BMU now. It replaced a pile of Russ Andrews filters etc. I think the latter treated the symptoms of mains problems rather than the causes. The RA stuff was easy to sell on, though, established brand...and their prices rise often and fast so I got back more than I had bought them for secondhand! Ive also had and sold a few Russ Andrews bits. They do sell easily. I’m talking Torlyte and Kimber in my case. All bought used in the first place. The turttable stand was very good, I thought. Mini BMU sounds like a much more palatable product fir me. The smaller size, trailing socket and lower price all add to the attraction factor |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 10:46:30 GMT
It will be interesting to hear what Alan thinks of a BMU in his system. He may regret spending so much if the BMU does the job. It's a distinct possibility but what happens if it doubles up the benefits? I'd be incredibly confused at that point. |
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Post by macca on Feb 22, 2019 12:12:04 GMT
The BMU has a measurable benefit - usually (doesn't matter who makes them, You've got a link to some measurements that you can show us, Dave? |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 22, 2019 12:33:47 GMT
It will be interesting to hear what Alan thinks of a BMU in his system. He may regret spending so much if the BMU does the job. It's a distinct possibility but what happens if it doubles up the benefits? I'd be incredibly confused at that point. How will we spot the difference?   |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 12:50:27 GMT
It's a distinct possibility but what happens if it doubles up the benefits? I'd be incredibly confused at that point. How will we spot the difference? 😆😆 Good point! |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 22, 2019 13:20:45 GMT
The BMU has a measurable benefit - usually (doesn't matter who makes them, You've got a link to some measurements that you can show us, Dave? Not to hand, but if you do some reading on the more objective sites and forums, I think you may find what I believe I found. It's kind of taken for granted what balanced operation can do in terms of common mode rejection and our mains has been inclined to be not so good for decades now - and no, I don't have objective links to this either. You're just going to have to look. There may also have been stuff on TAS as well.
The BMU unit we're both familiar with hasn't been complaining so much recently in terms of slight buzzing, but I intend when funds permit to try to make up a high current DC blocker to see what that does. The one his pal Mark (YNWOAN) made up looks quite a severe one to try and rather more overkill than the simpler one RD linked to. It may make things worse, but we'll see one day.
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Post by macca on Feb 22, 2019 13:29:26 GMT
You've got a link to some measurements that you can show us, Dave? Not to hand, but if you do some reading on the more objective sites and forums, I think you may find what I believe I found. It's kind of taken for granted what balanced operation can do in terms of common mode rejection and our mains has been inclined to be not so good for decades now - and no, I don't have objective links to this either. You're just going to have to look. There may also have been stuff on TAS as well.
The BMU unit we're both familiar with hasn't been complaining so much recently in terms of slight buzzing, but I intend when funds permit to try to make up a high current DC blocker to see what that does. The one his pal Mark (YNWOAN) made up looks quite a severe one to try and rather more overkill than the simpler one RD linked to. It may make things worse, but we'll see one day.
I do a lot of reading on all sorts of sites and IME all the 'objectivist' sites say there is nothing wrong with the mains and that any well-designed equipment will not have any issues at all.
That's certainly been my experience to date.
Subjective impressions are fine but if someone's claiming measured improvements then they need to back that up with said measurements.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2019 15:56:26 GMT
Not to hand, but if you do some reading on the more objective sites and forums, I think you may find what I believe I found. It's kind of taken for granted what balanced operation can do in terms of common mode rejection and our mains has been inclined to be not so good for decades now - and no, I don't have objective links to this either. You're just going to have to look. There may also have been stuff on TAS as well.
The BMU unit we're both familiar with hasn't been complaining so much recently in terms of slight buzzing, but I intend when funds permit to try to make up a high current DC blocker to see what that does. The one his pal Mark (YNWOAN) made up looks quite a severe one to try and rather more overkill than the simpler one RD linked to. It may make things worse, but we'll see one day.
I do a lot of reading on all sorts of sites and IME all the 'objectivist' sites say there is nothing wrong with the mains and that any well-designed equipment will not have any issues at all.
That's certainly been my experience to date.
Subjective impressions are fine but if someone's claiming measured improvements then they need to back that up with said measurements.
That’s interesting and I know you’re not someone to speak without being suitabley informed. I’d assumed that balanced mains was a pro application and likely to be found in the recording industry. Because of that, I’d further assumed there was a proven and accepted objective reason for them. |
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