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Post by macca on Feb 22, 2019 16:13:11 GMT
I'm not saying that there isn't but if someone claims there are measurable benefits then I don't think it is unreasonable to ask to see the measurements they are referring to.
re pro industry and studios - many manufacturers give studios kit for free so that they can then say on their marketing blurb 'Used by the famous xxx studios.' So it doesn't necessarily mean anything.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 16:28:56 GMT
Good posts macca.๐
Obviously anyone with a vested interest producing / selling BMU's (or any other product for that matter) is going to shout said products praises from the roof top.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 16:42:38 GMT
I'm not saying that there isn't but if someone claims there are measurable benefits then I don't think it is unreasonable to ask to see the measurements they are referring to. re pro industry and studios - many manufacturers give studios kit for free so that they can then say on their marketing blurb 'Used by the famous xxx studios.' So it doesn't necessarily mean anything. Apropos of which: many years ago I was given a tour of Manchester University's computing centre. The bloke in charge explained what the various boxes were for, which systems they ran, etc. In one corner was a large unit with nothing attached. I asked what it was for, and the bloke said "IBM donated it to us a couple of years back, but we've never found a use for it, so it just sits there. IBM lists us as one of their 'major users'."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 17:23:57 GMT
The BMU has a measurable benefit - usually (doesn't matter who makes them, You've got a link to some measurements that you can show us, Dave? I would also be interested in perusing any measurements that may be available. On a more subjective note , a friend recently brought his commercial BMU round as he was keen for me to hear the sonic benefits potentially available to me on my system with Pre and Power connected via an Isotek Titan II conditioner. We spent quite some time running through variations of connectivity from individual componants to combinations to full system. After the fat lady had finished her last aria we both agreed that the performance of Pre and more notably Power was more veiled less extended and with diminished dynamism via the BMU as apposed to the Titan II. Less clear cut was connectivity to sources were the BMU exhibited more of a different presentation as opposed to a better one. Interestingly my friend having re-evaluated the BMU in his own system is now also running his sources via his BMU and the rest via a conditioner to mains wall socket. YMMV IMHO etc etc.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2019 17:32:54 GMT
You've got a link to some measurements that you can show us, Dave? I would also be interested in perusing any measurements that may be available. On a more subjective note , a friend recently brought his commercial BMU round as he was keen for me to hear the sonic benefits potentially available to me on my system with Pre and Power connected via an Isotek Titan II conditioner. We spent quite some time running through variations of connectivity from individual componants to combinations to full system. After the fat lady had finished her last aria we both agreed that the performance of Pre and more notably Power was more veiled less extended and with diminished dynamism via the BMU as apposed to the Titan II. Less clear cut was connectivity to sources were the BMU exhibited more of a different presentation as opposed to a better one. Interestingly my friend having re-evaluated the BMU in his own system is now also running his sources via his BMU and the rest via a conditioner to mains wall socket. YMMV IMHO etc etc. This seems to be an emerging trend. Positive effects on source components an dpreaml, negative on power amp.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 17:35:26 GMT
I would also be interested in perusing any measurements that may be available. On a more subjective note , a friend recently brought his commercial BMU round as he was keen for me to hear the sonic benefits potentially available to me on my system with Pre and Power connected via an Isotek Titan II conditioner. We spent quite some time running through variations of connectivity from individual componants to combinations to full system. After the fat lady had finished her last aria we both agreed that the performance of Pre and more notably Power was more veiled less extended and with diminished dynamism via the BMU as apposed to the Titan II. Less clear cut was connectivity to sources were the BMU exhibited more of a different presentation as opposed to a better one. Interestingly my friend having re-evaluated the BMU in his own system is now also running his sources via his BMU and the rest via a conditioner to mains wall socket. YMMV IMHO etc etc. This seems to be an emerging trend. Positive effects on source components an dpreaml, negative on power amp. That's how I've been using mine since it was built. It's what worked here. Proved a bit more today.
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 22, 2019 17:53:37 GMT
This seems to be an emerging trend. Positive effects on source components an dpreaml, negative on power amp. That's how I've been using mine since it was built. It's what worked here. Proved a bit more today. I wonder if itโs a quality thing? If you have an amp like the Krell with large, well-made transformer and quality power supply components, the BMU is a negative. Cheaply made amps with poor quality transformers and supplies may still be improved by it? Just a thought.
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Post by macca on Feb 22, 2019 18:03:52 GMT
That's how I've been using mine since it was built. It's what worked here. Proved a bit more today. I wonder if itโs a quality thing? If you have an amp like the Krell with large, well-made transformer and quality power supply components, the BMU is a negative. Cheaply made amps with poor quality transformers and supplies may still be improved by it? Just a thought. The thing is an amp is refreshing its own power supply from the reservoir capacitors on every cycle- it's the charge in the caps that is powering the thing - so even if there was some problem with the mains it isn't going to manifest itself via the amplifier. I did have good results with a Belkin mains block years ago. Not with the amp plugged into it, as that was worse, but with the cd player and pre-amp running off it there was a noticeable subjective improvement. When I had that thing everyone who came round, totally unprompted, would say that sound was fantastic - even civilians - even my mother! In truth it was not, there were still many issues with the sound I was not happy with, not would any serious enthusiast be. But it added a certain something in the midrange that really made the sound involving compared to when it was out of circuit. I concluded that it must be some sort of pleasant colouration, a degraded sound that was nevertheless more enjoyable to listen to. But I don't know for sure and the thing died when I accidentally left it plugged in when they came round to change the leccy meter. And Belkin don't make them anymore.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 22, 2019 18:41:46 GMT
I wonder if itโs a quality thing? If you have an amp like the Krell with large, well-made transformer and quality power supply components, the BMU is a negative. Cheaply made amps with poor quality transformers and supplies may still be improved by it? Just a thought. The thing is an amp is refreshing its own power supply from the reservoir capacitors on every cycle- it's the charge in the caps that is powering the thing - so even if there was some problem with the mains it isn't going to manifest itself via the amplifier. Oh yes it does - ask any Naim owner of old! Maybe it's the Naim amp design, but after eleven at night, you could immediately hear a better sound - it seemed to change very quickly and not be a placebo creeping up on you as your mood changed. How come some CD players in a given system used to affect the sound of other sources? It did happen and that's what made me look at proper filters which I still use and compare with an without (my digital stuff is very old though)..
I've listened with and without the BMU in recent times, 6A filters on the digital stuff and ferrites and even here in a coastal situation, I find the music slightly 'easier' to fall into with these things, so they remain. They do absolutely no harm electrically or sonically, so they remain!
P.S. It's twenty years ago now, but when I returned to KJ W1 for a few months, we were doing dems with BIG Krells and similar amps. Guess what, adding what was then a ยฃ200 Russ Andrews mains block improved the sound markedly, reducing a thickness and grain without it and this improvement was way above the different bits of wire connecting it all up. This was repeatable too and we cried out very loudly when RA took dealers out of it and charged the same amount for selling direct...
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Post by alit on Feb 22, 2019 19:35:48 GMT
I can ask Nick to do some measurements- heโs got test kit coming out of his ears.
One thing- at the last Yorkshire club meet we tried Nickโs new regenerator power supply for AC motor turntables. It produces a very pure sine wave and frequency can be adjusted too- idea behind that being you can easily adjust speed on the likes of a Lenco between 33 and 45, easily, and as itโs regulated speed will stay absolutely steady. Clever bit of kit, and weirdly means you can leave a 401 on 33 but still adjust the speed to 45 without turning the selector switch.
This made a large improvement to all the TTโs it was tried on, so that would appear to suggest that crap on the mains certainly affects the motor.
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 22, 2019 19:39:09 GMT
Let's assume one has perfect mains and big Krell amp, like Oli's. The Krell has a 3KVA transformer in it, if you put anything in front of that which raises the impedance of the supply then the likelihood of a positive outcome is reduced. So the balance of beneficial outcome becomes skewed, the lower the size of the transformer that a BMU feeds the more likelihood there is of a beneficial outcome. (Excluding the fact that larger transformers tend to be noisier physically in the first place).
So, the chance of it benefitting smaller source components is greater, it just means that you need to think about the max rating of the BMU in respect to where it will be used.
You might be surprised to know this but most power supplies in kit are pretty Sh#t. Compound that onto the PSRR of the actual circuit in the box and it's easy to see why noisy mains can make its way through to the output of your hifi. Let's not of course ignore the chill factor, work done, weekend coming, 2nd glass of wine in hand. You have to factor it all in.
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 22, 2019 19:40:38 GMT
Ali, and that wasn't raw mains, it had been using a big Isotek regenerator.
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Post by alit on Feb 22, 2019 19:51:59 GMT
Yes, but I think Nick plugged it straight into the wall to remove that variable. Might be wrong on that.
If I am, wonder how it made such an improvement then.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 10:29:49 GMT
I think the thing with these units is that you should hear a problem that needs to be solved. Some are looking for a problem that may or may not exist. I did try the NVA BMU and it did improve things in certain areas while I felt the sound hardened up a bit. Different kit maybe different result. Tempted to try the mini BMU as the flying lead makes it more adaptable and maybe the big BMU is overkill in many circumstances.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 12:01:53 GMT
I think the thing with these units is that you should hear a problem that needs to be solved. Some are looking for a problem that may or may not exist. I did try the NVA BMU and it did improve things in certain areas while I felt the sound hardened up a bit. Different kit maybe different result. Tempted to try the mini BMU as the flying lead makes it more adaptable and maybe the big BMU is overkill in many circumstances. Hardening of the sound has been in line with my own findings, but only on power amps. When I enquired about the effect, I was told never to plug a power amp into s BMU. I tried it again yesterday and found exactly the same result although I suspected the Krell needed far more supply than my BMU offers. Turns out I was right.
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 23, 2019 13:27:44 GMT
I think the thing with these units is that you should hear a problem that needs to be solved. Some are looking for a problem that may or may not exist. I did try the NVA BMU and it did improve things in certain areas while I felt the sound hardened up a bit. Different kit maybe different result. Tempted to try the mini BMU as the flying lead makes it more adaptable and maybe the big BMU is overkill in many circumstances. Hardening of the sound has been in line with my own findings, but only on power amps. When I enquired about the effect, I was told never to plug a power amp into s BMU. I tried it again yesterday and found exactly the same result although I suspected the Krell needed far more supply than my BMU offers. Turns out I was right. Mini BMU looks like a very good value product. ยฃ225 on HFS and itโs more easily accommodated with the trailing socket. Price compares very well with the smallest airlink product and that one only has a singke inlet. Plus Iโm guessing you will get the usual 30:day trial.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 23, 2019 14:04:14 GMT
Just an observation, Ollie's Krell consumes loads on idle, where Macca's doesn't and I suspect Macca's amp on idle and low power use isn't any different to a typical large AB style amp.
My main stereo set doesn't have any of these 'toys' apart from a Roxburgh filter on the CD player (and I've always used the transformer coupled balanced outs on this player as this was how it was supplied and with 'balanced to single ended' cables supplied by the manufacturer). The BMU is in the workroom rig, which is used a heck of a lot more and with a turnover of stuff connected to it, or not...
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Post by nonuffin on Feb 23, 2019 15:58:21 GMT
Here's another take on the groundimg issue that I had a demo of at the Brissol Show yesterday by those nice people at Atlas Cables.
It's called their "Grun" system and rather than a mysterious heavy box it connects signal ground planes to earth. I didn't ask for more details but I will do very soon.
The effect was very subtle and it seemed to put a keener front on leading edges and improved imaging depth a tad.
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 23, 2019 18:32:14 GMT
Ollies amp consumes the same power all the time, it's class A, it's always running at full tilt. Just sometimes its being used to drive speakers rather that just heat the room.
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 23, 2019 18:40:00 GMT
For F#ck sake, all grounds are connected together internally on the back panel of any amp, what the actual F#ck can adding another wire from this point and back to it again do but offer further loop area for receiving more airborne radiation to pollute the gnd even more. It's just a parallel loop of wire FFS. Krell pre-amp, one single signal wire from each rca socket to the main board and then the white wires are the shared chassis gnd from all the rca sockets and the xlrs (the xlrs get one each because that complies with the wiring spec for xlr sockets. ) this is just utter nonsense.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 19:04:22 GMT
If it doesn't move ground it, if it does move ground it till it doesn't.
Just to be on the safe side...!!!
๐
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 20:27:47 GMT
This may highlight met lack of technical knowledge but it's been on my mind for a few days so:
WHAT IF the ground box somehow absorbs the RF around the system (if that's a thing) and uses the ground of the system (via the cable) to get rid of it. So dispersion via the systems ground rather than removing RF from the system
What if we've been looking at this all wrong?
Just a thought based on NO technical knowledge at all.
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 23, 2019 22:45:39 GMT
If the compound in the grounding box somehow manages to transform electrical energy on the ground wires to vibration/ heat, a reverse piezoelectric effect for example then maybe.
You'd do just as well attaching a battery to the wire and trying to charge it through a diode. Hell maybe that's all it is. maybe it's just a pair of back to back LEDS protected by diodes.
Or maybe it does F#ck all.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 22:58:29 GMT
If the compound in the grounding box somehow manages to transform electrical energy on the ground wires to vibration/ heat, a reverse piezoelectric effect for example then maybe. You'd do just as well attaching a battery to the wire and trying to charge it through a diode. Hell maybe that's all it is. maybe it's just a pair of back to back LEDS protected by diodes.Or maybe it does F#ck all. Similar thoughts crossed my mind. Maybe it's a diode rectifier that goes nowhere?
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Post by dsjr on Feb 24, 2019 8:10:53 GMT
Ollies amp consumes the same power all the time, it's class A, it's always running at full tilt. Just sometimes its being used to drive speakers rather that just heat the room. I am aware of that Actually, I believe the 100A is actually a 150WPC AB amp, but specified to run the 'first' 100W in Class A, as the 50A was specified to run the first 50W in Class A but is actually a 90WPC AB amp as I think Maccas is, albeit with variable bias levels as the power goes up.
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Post by macca on Feb 24, 2019 8:51:42 GMT
Ollies amp consumes the same power all the time, it's class A, it's always running at full tilt. Just sometimes its being used to drive speakers rather that just heat the room. I am aware of that Actually, I believe the 100A is actually a 150WPC AB amp, but specified to run the 'first' 100W in Class A, as the 50A was specified to run the first 50W in Class A but is actually a 90WPC AB amp as I think Maccas is, albeit with variable bias levels as the power goes up. 100 watts into 8 ohms but at 1% THD+N which is not really an acceptable level of distortion, for me, anyway. The blue lights come on at 25 watts, I've never lit them up in domestic use, not even on peaks.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 24, 2019 9:01:46 GMT
I did, regularly - cough - but never for very long...
Just checked the Stereophile review on your 50S. Yeah, the higher power distortion is pretty high (I've been reading too much ASR reviews, especially of that Hypex NC400 kit amp which has phenominal measurements and is pretty clean at rf by all accounts - switching noise) and into eight ohms, the 'hockey-stick 'corner' is more like 70 - 80W on full bias. BUT!!! The distortion at a very few Watts into a nominal eight ohms which you and most people use, is very low and seemingly second order harmonic and no crossover artefacts which really are audible..
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Post by macca on Feb 24, 2019 9:13:49 GMT
Yes I would like a go on those Hypex amps just out of curiosity, on paper they are close to perfection yet with Sh#t-loads of power. I just have an unreasonable prejudice against class D.
My new speakers will be even more efficient than the current ones so no real need for more power.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 9:20:32 GMT
I am aware of that Actually, I believe the 100A is actually a 150WPC AB amp, but specified to run the 'first' 100W in Class A, as the 50A was specified to run the first 50W in Class A but is actually a 90WPC AB amp as I think Maccas is, albeit with variable bias levels as the power goes up. 100 watts into 8 ohms but at 1% THD+N which is not really an acceptable level of distortion, for me, anyway. The blue lights come on at 25 watts, I've never lit them up in domestic use, not even on peaks.That highlights a good point. Most people don't realise how little power they generally use when listening to their Hi-Fi. I had some 8 watt Arcana valve monoblocks years ago and they drove my speakers to serious levels without bother.
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Post by macca on Feb 24, 2019 9:29:12 GMT
True, I'm rarely using even 1 watt and I don't play at low levels. Depends a lot on the speakers though. And also the distortion and noise. The better the system the less you have to jack up the volume in order to hear everything in a 'balanced' way.
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