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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2018 10:01:14 GMT
There seem to be two types of Hi-Fi system. Insensitive speakers used with high power amplifiers and high sensitivity speakers used with modestly powered amps. There are of course various permutations that won't necessarily fit exactly into one or the other category.
I tend to favour the latter and have for many years opted for efficient speakers and have generally employed amps with between ten and fifty watts. Current rig has forty watts, which is more than enough to drive my Tannoys.
The other philosophy might use for instance, a Quad 909 driving a pair of ATC speakers.
I can't say that either approach wins out, as I've heard both sounding very good.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 19, 2018 10:04:53 GMT
There seem to be two types of Hi-Fi system. Insensitive speakers used with high power amplifiers and high sensitivity speakers used with modestly powered amps. There are of course various permutations that won't necessarily fit exactly into one or the other category. I tend to favour the latter and have for many years opted for efficient speakers and have generally employed amps with between ten and fifty watts. Current rig has forty watts, which is more than enough to drive my Tannoys. The other philosophy might use for instance, a Quad 909 driving a pair of ATC speakers. I can't say that either approach wins out, as I've heard both sounding very good. Very true. The low power amp Andrew efficient speakers route usually gives you more bang fir buck IMO. |
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Post by dsjr on Aug 19, 2018 12:20:34 GMT
Maybe in the real world, the two 'extremes' are getting much closer?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2018 12:33:55 GMT
Yeah. I use modestly efficient loudspeakers with modestly powerful amps, and they work fine together. OTOH I rarely play music very loudly.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 19, 2018 13:27:35 GMT
Big amp and inefficient speakers is usually less versatile for me, Those types of pairing don’t work well at low volumes on many cases.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2018 14:50:55 GMT
Yeah, sensitive speakers tend to have more powerful magnets and that seems to bring tighter control and precision through the mid and bass that starts and stops more precisely in my experience. Lowthers are a prime example, even if they are horrible tonally. They certainly don't lack in their transient response and detail.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2018 11:42:06 GMT
Arr, I have both system approaches.
Main set up in me captain's quarters is flea powered SET tubes into v sensitive horns (with integrated subs), whereas the second is for general crew mates and is mega insensitive speaks driven by class A muscle amp.
Many different ways to the booty for sure.
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Post by macca on Aug 21, 2018 21:53:19 GMT
There seem to be two types of Hi-Fi system. Insensitive speakers used with high power amplifiers and high sensitivity speakers used with modestly powered amps. There are of course various permutations that won't necessarily fit exactly into one or the other category. I tend to favour the latter and have for many years opted for efficient speakers and have generally employed amps with between ten and fifty watts. Current rig has forty watts, which is more than enough to drive my Tannoys. The other philosophy might use for instance, a Quad 909 driving a pair of ATC speakers. I can't say that either approach wins out, as I've heard both sounding very good. What are we saying is a modestly powered amp or a high sensitivity speaker? Modern speakers tend to hover around 89 or 90 dB which is pretty sensitive. How easy they are to drive for the amp is a different matter, they can sacrifice ease of drive for sensitivity. An 87dB speaker is only a slight drop in sensitivity. 3dB is not that much. I'd say 99db plus is a high sensitivity speaker and it should be an easy load for the amp too. The only speakers with really low sensitivity I can think of that anyone uses now are panels and electrostatics. Pretty much everything else is 85dB or above. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2018 22:42:58 GMT
You know what I'm getting at Martin. 85db is actually fairly low sensitivity as it goes, although not as low as my old Celestion SL600 Si's were 83db if I recall, although a pair of Arcana 8 watt rated monos seemed happy enough driving them.
I tend to like speakers with 90db plus sensitivity for some reason and I'm not fussy about amp output power, as long as it does the job.
My 15 watt EL34 monoblocks drive my Tannoys to painful levels without breaking a sweat, plenty of grip too.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 22, 2018 2:11:12 GMT
The only speaker I have come across that really needed power to go loud was the early Linn Sara. Later models were far more amenable, but also less engaging.
My Spicas should be similar at 83-84 dB sensitivity with a 5th order crossover and a nominal 4 ohm load. Oddly they are quite the opposite. I have used a few amps of 10 watts or so and never struggled. If I hadn’t read the specs I would have thought they were 87-88 dB and an easy load.
Linn Kans at 82db were also a speaker that shouldn’t play well on paper with small amps, but again it doesn’t add up that way in real life.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 12:48:36 GMT
Hi Efficiency speakers with more power than you would normally use them with is what I prefer.
Both my sets of HE speakers are quite happy with 10-15 W but give them 30-80 and they realy start to rock. Not a great fan of SET amps, or at least the ones I have tried so far, to lazy, no balls. When it comes to what I like, that is blowing the house down, the more powerful amps are what I prefer. At low volumes SET is OK that being said a push pull in Triode 12 w or so does more for me than any SET I have heard thus far. Who knows I will keep trying and listening, perhaps my views will change.
From my experience if a speaker has a stable impedance curve that does not drop below 4 ohm the sensitivity does not seem to matter that much.
Have tried some speakers with a high sensitivity rating with low powered amps and the results have been horrible to say the least. One particular example rated at 92 db went into such distress and severe woofer pumping, on of all things a Musical Fidelity A1, so much so I thought it wold pump its way across the floor. Yet this very same speaker sounded very good on a vintage 1979 35 W Teac BX 300.
The very same A1 was used on some Acoustat model 2's and it sounded great, go figure.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 22, 2018 16:20:33 GMT
MF A1 rolled the bass off I remember (maybe just on the phono stage?), so to get a speaker cone pumping means instability of some sort I suggest. Bloody overheating crap they were, with a stodgy dull sound in all the versions I heard. Valve like in a Quad 22-11 kind of way, so most of the music in the background was missing as well...
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 23, 2018 11:39:31 GMT
MF A1 rolled the bass off I remember (maybe just on the phono stage?), so to get a speaker cone pumping means instability of some sort I suggest. Bloody overheating crap they were, with a stodgy dull sound in all the versions I heard. Valve like in a Quad 22-11 kind of way, so most of the music in the background was missing as well... Definitely had a softer bass on line level too. The phono stage is a weak,link imho and not really good enough to live with the rarest of the amp. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 11:41:27 GMT
I'd love to have another A1 someday. Sweet and musical.
S.
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Post by macca on Aug 23, 2018 12:04:52 GMT
No, they're a load of unreliable, reviewer-hyped tat.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 23, 2018 12:26:38 GMT
I’d say you’re both right  They can vary but get a good one and it can sound incredibly sweet, liquid and beguiling (IMHO of course).my best one with Glastonbury’s saw off everything else including the ones Max Townsend told me to get. OTOH, you are buying an lottery ticket rather than an amp. 1. They apparently sold rebadged B200s to meet damend 2. Components were und specked in many examples. 3. 30 plus years and a lot of heat can take their toll, even on a good one, It also begs the question of what the reviewers were sent and was it consistent with products sold. Again that would appear to be a lottery. I should know all these things, cos I’ve had a few: Maybe 8-10. Two great ones, a couple of good ones and the rest were average. I have had 3 reliability issues, one on a recently serviced amp. If you’re willing to shop around and take a punt, then they can give you something special, but that’s only if you’re lo9king for a warm, liquid, valve type of sound. If you want a muscle amp with a flat response, better look elsewhere. |
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Post by antonio on Aug 23, 2018 13:51:01 GMT
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 23, 2018 16:02:47 GMT
Personally I’d run a mile. You can buy early Levinson for a lot less and I’d have much more faith in it than any MF. I don’t personally have any trust in the owner so it would be like buying a Rolex from Delboy. I’d rather stick with a more trusted name.
Slightly off topic but the A370 that everybody calls a Krell, beater did nothing for me and I’ve heard several examples. Krell beater my arse.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 16:18:36 GMT
All I see is a large metal box containing bullshit! S. |
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Post by macca on Aug 23, 2018 17:02:56 GMT
Way too expensive. No need to spend that kind of cutter. And if you don't like it you'll take at least a grand hit selling it and it will take ages to sell. There's a bloke on the same forum flogging a Krell KSA100 for £1100 - if you're in the market for a power amp bite his arm off. You won't lose any money at that price. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 21:34:06 GMT
Way too expensive. No need to spend that kind of cutter. And if you don't like it you'll take at least a grand hit selling it and it will take ages to sell. There's a bloke on the same forum flogging a Krell KSA100 for £1100 - if you're in the market for a power amp bite his arm off. You won't lose any money at that price. Obviously, after hearing yours Macca, I'd love this. I'd have to shift some bits first so any idea if this would better the Monarchy Audio SM-70 I'm currently using??? Anyone? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2018 22:09:58 GMT
Having heard a few of the older Krells and knowing the SM-70, I'd suggest there will be a lot of similarity in the presentation. The main thing you'd notice is the 'heft' of the Krells, although the little Monarchy isn't exactly short of this.
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Post by antonio on Aug 24, 2018 5:18:25 GMT
Way too expensive. No need to spend that kind of cutter. And if you don't like it you'll take at least a grand hit selling it and it will take ages to sell. There's a bloke on the same forum flogging a Krell KSA100 for £1100 - if you're in the market for a power amp bite his arm off. You won't lose any money at that price. Not in the market for an amp, but was interested in everyone's thoughts. It's given great reviews, and although I have only heard Musical Fidelity at shows, I have never been impressed. |
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Post by macca on Aug 24, 2018 6:16:02 GMT
Way too expensive. No need to spend that kind of cutter. And if you don't like it you'll take at least a grand hit selling it and it will take ages to sell. There's a bloke on the same forum flogging a Krell KSA100 for £1100 - if you're in the market for a power amp bite his arm off. You won't lose any money at that price. Obviously, after hearing yours Macca, I'd love this. I'd have to shift some bits first so any idea if this would better the Monarchy Audio SM-70 I'm currently using??? Anyone? The KSA100 is generally considered to be better than the one I've got by the Krell cognoscenti. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 24, 2018 6:59:19 GMT
Way too expensive. No need to spend that kind of cutter. And if you don't like it you'll take at least a grand hit selling it and it will take ages to sell. There's a bloke on the same forum flogging a Krell KSA100 for £1100 - if you're in the market for a power amp bite his arm off. You won't lose any money at that price. Obviously, after hearing yours Macca, I'd love this. I'd have to shift some bits first so any idea if this would better the Monarchy Audio SM-70 I'm currently using??? Anyone? Only my opinion but a mate with lots of experience agrees with me. KSA100 has no soul. I wouldn’t buy one unless it was to flip for profit. It’s mechanical and nothing exceptional IMO. I’ve had one amd my mate has had two. None had anything about them. Same to a lesser extent does for KSA80. KSA50mk1 is a peach though. KSA50s dont appear very often so If you want an amp that beats the KSA100 in every way and doesn’t sound warm, go fir a Bryson 4B ST. If you prefer a warmer balance, try an Aragon 4004 mk2. |
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Post by antonio on Aug 24, 2018 9:22:32 GMT
I'm confused  Macca says the KSA100 is generally considered to be better than his and you agree Westie, but go on to say it lacks soul. I have vague memories of hearing older Krell amps and not being really impressed, but that could have been due to other components. I will say we were very impressed with the Evolution series though. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 24, 2018 9:51:47 GMT
I'm confused Macca says the KSA100 is generally considered to be better than his and you agree Westie, but go on to say it lacks soul. I have vague memories of hearing older Krell amps and not being really impressed, but that could have been due to other components. I will say we were very impressed with the Evolution series though. I think the part where there is confusion is that I don’t agree the KSA100 would be better than the 50mk2. I don’t know that amp, I only know the mk1 which is a completely different amp in build and (reportedly) sonics. Stereophile did a comparative review of mk1 and mk2 ksa50 if anyone cares to have a look. Having read it and having owned the mk1, I wouldn’t be interested in digging out a mk2. It doesn’t sound like I’d appreciate it after having had the mk1. www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/985krell/index.html |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 19:01:47 GMT
More confused than before.
I think I'll leave it lol
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Post by macca on Aug 24, 2018 22:35:28 GMT
I got the opposite impression from that review - that there wasn't really that much in it. I mean he's got to write something hasn't he. He just makes the most of some vague subjective impressions to fill the page. I mean how different are two 50 watt high current class A amplifiers designed by the same bloke going to sound?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2018 5:46:48 GMT
Having heard a few of the older Krells and knowing the SM-70, I'd suggest there will be a lot of similarity in the presentation. The main thing you'd notice is the 'heft' of the Krells, although the little Monarchy isn't exactly short of this. Cheers Geoff. There's also the small issue of where to put the thing. From what I've seen they are quite large! |
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Macca says the KSA100 is generally considered to be better than his and you agree Westie, but go on to say it lacks soul. I have vague memories of hearing older Krell amps and not being really impressed, but that could have been due to other components. I will say we were very impressed with the Evolution series though.