Arke
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Post by Arke on Dec 18, 2023 21:18:39 GMT
It's about 4db down at 20KHz according to the linked measurements. Probably not super obvious to many ears. The reviewer seems to imply it's done to deliver a smoother sound. Ah, thanks Jason. I could have checked for accuracy.. I actually think it may be because of the TEAC amplifier. It's Hypex, and Hypex can be edgy...(IME) I wonder if they have rolled off that top end for that reason? Ah, are tbose measurements CDT and Amp combined? I didn't read it all! Hard to know for sure why they make certain design choices. Smoother and non edgy digital sources are probably more popular, so they probably choose to make it smoother. I dunno, just guessing. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 18, 2023 21:20:27 GMT
Ah, thanks Jason. I could have checked for accuracy.. I actually think it may be because of the TEAC amplifier. It's Hypex, and Hypex can be edgy...(IME) I wonder if they have rolled off that top end for that reason? Ah, are tbose measurements CDT and Amp combined? I didn't read it all! Hard to know for sure why they make certain design choices. Smoother and non edgy digital sources are probably more popular, so they probably choose to make it smoother. I dunno, just guessing. No, I don't believe so. I think it's the DAC in Isolation, but I imagine they'd (TEAC) have listened to that combo, and *maybe* done that to the DAC to help? Dunno. I'm guessing... conspiracy theorising lol |
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 18, 2023 23:42:23 GMT
Reading that NK review the phrase "genre dependent dog's dinner" came to mind.
Personally, I remain happy with my Topping E30ii at a tiny fraction of the price which sounds great with everything. Although admittedly it doesn't look anywhere near as cool as the TEAC. But looks aren't everything.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 19, 2023 0:29:23 GMT
Reading that NK review the phrase "genre dependent dog's dinner" came to mind. Personally, I remain happy with my Topping E30ii at a tiny fraction of the price which sounds great with everything. Although admittedly it doesn't look anywhere near as cool as the TEAC. But looks aren't everything. It really is hard to fault the E30 MKII, no doubt. Been listening to Steely Dan for about three days now lol. Just super sound quality. I do find myself wondering if there is any gain with a 4499 chip? I may have to find out. However, I'd love a go with a 701N. I think it's probably excellent, but with a specific flavour of it's own. That may get fatiguing for me. I don't like to hear the kits influence. |
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Post by hifinutt on Dec 19, 2023 15:30:26 GMT
I do fancy the 701N - I would really like to know if it does have that roll-off but there's just nothing else out there other than that NK review. Why would they do that? It just makes no sense. I think mine is still the only review of the 701T. TEAC marketing division asleep at the switch? yes some reviews of cd player version www.whathifi.com/reviews/teac-vrds-701but very little from the mags yet |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 19, 2023 18:41:41 GMT
I've contacted TEAC regarding the Review which claims a 4db drop between 10-20khz.
They have asked for a link to the review, as they don't think it measures like that.
They said they will get back to me....
....now we wait.
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Post by macca on Dec 19, 2023 18:48:18 GMT
Reading that NK review the phrase "genre dependent dog's dinner" came to mind. Personally, I remain happy with my Topping E30ii at a tiny fraction of the price which sounds great with everything. Although admittedly it doesn't look anywhere near as cool as the TEAC. But looks aren't everything. It's a pre-amp and a streamer as well as a DAC and I'm sort of in the market for a pre-amp. Obviously no interest in the streamer. And it would match my transport in appearance. They are my reasons for considering it. I'm 100 percent happy with the E30 as a DAC. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 19, 2023 18:49:26 GMT
Reading that NK review the phrase "genre dependent dog's dinner" came to mind. Personally, I remain happy with my Topping E30ii at a tiny fraction of the price which sounds great with everything. Although admittedly it doesn't look anywhere near as cool as the TEAC. But looks aren't everything. It's a pre-amp and a streamer as well as a DAC and I'm sort of in the market for a pre-amp. Obviously no interest in the streamer. And it would match my transport in appearance. They are my reasons for considering it. I'm 100 percent happy with the E30 as a DAC. I haven't forgotten your Preamp situation, I just have not had a minute. In fact, I may have a ride up first week of Jan, if you're about? |
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Post by macca on Dec 19, 2023 18:52:46 GMT
I've contacted TEAC regarding the Review which claims a 4db drop between 10-20khz. They have asked for a link to the review, as they don't think it measures like that. They said they will get back to me.... ....now we wait. nice one. IIRC the 701 has a lot of adjustments that can be made to it so I wonder if he didn't set it up right for those measurements? He has got previous form (measuring Cd players without using dithered signals then claiming CD has more distortion than vinyl - although that was 30 odd years ago), I know from playing with EQ that I can hear a 1dB droop in FR at 10Khz out to about 16KHZ so it does matter to me. |
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Post by macca on Dec 19, 2023 18:53:26 GMT
It's a pre-amp and a streamer as well as a DAC and I'm sort of in the market for a pre-amp. Obviously no interest in the streamer. And it would match my transport in appearance. They are my reasons for considering it. I'm 100 percent happy with the E30 as a DAC. I haven't forgotten your Preamp situation, I just have not had a minute. In fact, I may have a ride up first week of Jan, if you're about? I'm pretty much always about  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 19, 2023 18:55:46 GMT
I haven't forgotten your Preamp situation, I just have not had a minute. In fact, I may have a ride up first week of Jan, if you're about? I'm pretty much always about Ok, I'm going to aim to come up with a few bits and we'll do some listening. See what happens. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 19, 2023 19:39:55 GMT
I've contacted TEAC regarding the Review which claims a 4db drop between 10-20khz. They have asked for a link to the review, as they don't think it measures like that. They said they will get back to me.... ....now we wait. nice one. IIRC the 701 has a lot of adjustments that can be made to it so I wonder if he didn't set it up right for those measurements? He has got previous form (measuring Cd players without using dithered signals then claiming CD has more distortion than vinyl - although that was 30 odd years ago), I know from playing with EQ that I can hear a 1dB droop in FR at 10Khz out to about 16KHZ so it does matter to me. To be fair, i think it's best to ask when reviews come from an unknown source ( to me) If TEAC come back with the words i want to hear and a bit of evidence, i will share it here. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 20, 2023 16:40:50 GMT
Bad news:  |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Dec 20, 2023 17:52:35 GMT
Bad news: That's a shame. Pity they didn't have flat to 20khz as a tuning option. It does make you wonder though... What was wrong with the sound when it was flat to 20khz? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 20, 2023 17:53:07 GMT
Bad news: That's a shame. Pity they didn't have flat to 20khz as a tuning option. It does make you wonder though... What was wrong with the sound when it was flat to 20khz? It's that amplifier, I am convinced. |
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Post by macca on Dec 20, 2023 18:17:25 GMT
Muppets. I can understand doing that with a budget device that might get used with some ropey speakers in a poor acoustic but for something costing the thick end of three grand it makes no sense.
What exactly is a 'lesser recorded CD'? Lots of modern recordings are too compressed but rolling off FR in the audible band won't fix that.
Well that's at least two sales it's cost them.
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Post by macca on Dec 20, 2023 18:20:44 GMT
I suppose you could compensate with EQ. Not that big a deal. But better to have the DAC flat and let a user roll of the top end if they want to.
Or just fit a switch so you can flick between flat and altered. Carver were doing that on their CD players back in the 1980s.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 20, 2023 19:14:31 GMT
Muppets. I can understand doing that with a budget device that might get used with some ropey speakers in a poor acoustic but for something costing the thick end of three grand it makes no sense. What exactly is a 'lesser recorded CD'? Lots of modern recordings are too compressed but rolling off FR in the audible band won't fix that. Well that's at least two sales it's cost them. It's certainly ruined it for me. I was genuinely very interested in this. Not anymore. What a stupid thing to do. In a world of increasingly clued up audiophiles, how did this get the nod? Madness. |
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Post by macca on Dec 20, 2023 20:16:45 GMT
oh well think I will get the 1991 Yamaha pre I was looking it. It has an orange display, so should match well enough and it's a tenth the price of the TEAC.
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Post by hifinutt on Apr 20, 2024 16:09:38 GMT
latest video on it
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Post by macca on Apr 20, 2024 16:50:18 GMT
He likes it then.
I'd rather not pay the extra £500 over the cost of the transport version to be stuck with TEAC's rolled off DAC though.
He says he thought it has a bit more 'midrange body' than the Hegel, I wonder if that's a result of the roll-off? The TEAC should sound subtly different to anyone with any HF hearing left and Darko is still quite young.
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Post by jandl100 on Apr 21, 2024 5:33:15 GMT
I wonder what the measurements are for the much prized and praised "sweetness" mentioned on this thread. 🤔
I'd wager a despised treble rolloff is involved. 😉
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Post by macca on Apr 21, 2024 7:43:39 GMT
I wonder what the measurements are for the much prized and praised "sweetness" mentioned on this thread. 🤔 I'd wager a despised treble rolloff is involved. 😉 We can only speculate The point is that I don't want treble roll-off baked in to the equipment. If I want that then I can add it to an extent that is to my taste. Starting with neutral and then tuning makes more sense to me than starting with non-neutral and tuning. Okay, speakers and rooms are never neutral but we don't need to extend that issue to the electronics as well, it just complicates things even more. |
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Post by jandl100 on Apr 21, 2024 8:12:03 GMT
Oh yeah. I get that and I agree.
Pretty much everything I listen to now goes through digital eq.
I've got a setting for each of my many headphones.
I've 3 loudspeaker-based systems, each eq-ed differently.
To make my new Denafrips DAC sing, it needed a dB or 2 treble uplift compared to the Topping E30.
That's all it took to go from zzzzz to Wow.
Personally, I'd not be fussed by a fairly gentle rolloff.
As you say the room imposes far more drastic changes than that.
It's easy to transparently dial out broad tonal anomalies these days.
(.... resonant peaks are a different matter, though.)
There's a lot more going on with sound quality than frequency response issues imo.
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Post by macca on Apr 21, 2024 8:52:02 GMT
Oh yeah. I get that and I agree. Pretty much everything I listen to now goes through digital eq. I've got a setting for each of my many headphones. I've 3 loudspeaker-based systems, each eq-ed differently. To make my new Denafrips DAC sing, it needed a dB or 2 treble uplift compared to the Topping E30. That's all it took to go from zzzzz to Wow. Personally, I'd not be fussed by a fairly gentle rolloff. As you say the room imposes far more drastic changes than that. It's easy to transparently dial out broad tonal anomalies these days. (.... resonant peaks are a different matter, though.) There's a lot more going on with sound quality than frequency response issues imo. It's a gentle roll off, that's true, and I'm not saying it's the end of the world. But combine that with the asking price - I mean why would I pay that kind of money for something where I'm not entirely happy with how they have done the implementation? Of course there is more than frequency response that matters in the overall system, but the other aspects that affect the sound quality of electronic components (noise, distortion) have been solved problems in DACs for decades now. Anyway I probably would have bought the TEAC DAC/Pre-amp if it had a flat response, as it turns out I found a better, cheaper solution so it's done me a favour really. |
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Post by jandl100 on Apr 21, 2024 9:06:18 GMT
"Of course there is more than frequency response that matters in the overall system, but the other aspects that affect the sound quality of electronic components (noise, distortion) have been solved problems in DACs for decades now."
Nah, it's more than noise and distortion in electronics that makes a difference.
As you say, those are sorted unless the designer/manufacturer is incompetent or deliberately perverse. Which does happen, I'm sure.
All DACs sound different from each other ime, for example. And it's not just fr.
I'd put my money on dynamics issues being critical, which I guess is down to power supply; speed of response, resolution, power and current delivery. All of these may vary with frequency, providing a very complex set of issues with sq.
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Post by macca on Apr 21, 2024 9:27:28 GMT
"Of course there is more than frequency response that matters in the overall system, but the other aspects that affect the sound quality of electronic components (noise, distortion) have been solved problems in DACs for decades now." Nah, it's more than noise and distortion in electronics that makes a difference. As you say, those are sorted unless the designer/manufacturer is incompetent or deliberately perverse. Which does happen, I'm sure. All DACs sound different from each other ime, for example. And it's not just fr. I'd put my money on dynamics issues being critical, which I guess is down to power supply; speed of response, resolution, power and current delivery. All of these may vary with frequency, providing a very complex set of issues with sq. If those problems existed then they could be measured. Perceiving differences that can't be measured? That's cognitive bias at play. Try the comparison blind and level matched, see if you can still tell them apart. Suspect we will have to agree to disagree on this |
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Post by jandl100 on Apr 21, 2024 12:08:43 GMT
Go on then, swap out your Topping DAC for something else, then tell me they sound the same.
I betcha you won't. 😉
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Post by antonio on Apr 21, 2024 12:17:06 GMT
jandl100 I'm sure you have said somewhere, but what do you use for eq'ing everything?
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Post by macca on Apr 21, 2024 12:31:46 GMT
Go on then, swap out your Topping DAC for something else, then tell me they sound the same. I betcha you won't. 😉 I'm just as susceptible as everyone else... Having said that I can't discern any difference at all between my Soncoz and my Topping DACs even when I know which one I'm using. Nor could I tell any difference between a Young DAC and the DAC in a £200 Pioneer DVD player. Neither could the owner of the Young, which caused him some consternation. |
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