Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 8, 2023 11:24:27 GMT
Its very hard to describe what's happening, and in truth i have no idea why this £13 PCB should have the dramatic effect it does. It is dramatic though, and yes i agree, the sound just seems to go flat and stodgy when you take it out. Now it's there, i can't listen without it. It's not psychological either. It's audible. Yes.. back in the day a magazine reviewer would have been full of ‘veils being lifted’ .. or placed over. But it’s not that. All the music and instruments are there .. but not as sparkly. No.. that’s a rubbish description. Anyway.. it’s in my growing list of things that need sorting. It's just more expansive and dynamic. Tighter and punchier. Longer decay, streamlined attack. Propulsive and visceral. |
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Post by stevew on Apr 8, 2023 11:31:09 GMT
Might well have been in a sonic cathedral
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 8, 2023 11:31:40 GMT
Might well have been in a sonic cathedral 🤣 |
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Post by firebottle on Apr 8, 2023 12:00:18 GMT
Excellent, another convert.
It is difficult to describe the difference, you have to hear it.
I think Oli was a bit sceptical when I started describing the difference initially.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 8, 2023 12:02:01 GMT
Excellent, another convert. It is difficult to describe the difference, you have to hear it. I think Oli was a bit sceptical when I started describing the difference initially. Of course i was! It's a bloody clock lol |
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Post by lurch on Apr 8, 2023 12:40:11 GMT
So Andrew had said that if anyone had a chance that they should listen to a system with a clock in it to hear the difference. Dropping off some bits n bobs this week at Oliver’s I got the chance to do just that. Having listened to a few tracks through the digital side, Oliver was then able to throw a switch on the Mutec to go back to the internal clock rather than the pcb clock (£13 worth of Chinese clock). Blimey. It sort of just went ‘flat’. It lost the sense of being there. So this morning I’ve gone back and reread all of this thread and a lot makes so much more sense. Has to be done. Its very hard to describe what's happening, and in truth i have no idea why this £13 PCB should have the dramatic effect it does. It is dramatic though, and yes i agree, the sound just seems to go flat and stodgy when you take it out. Now it's there, i can't listen without it. It's not psychological either. It's audible. So when and where is this year's AA meet, so we can all hear what you guys are chuntering on about?? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 8, 2023 12:42:21 GMT
Its very hard to describe what's happening, and in truth i have no idea why this £13 PCB should have the dramatic effect it does. It is dramatic though, and yes i agree, the sound just seems to go flat and stodgy when you take it out. Now it's there, i can't listen without it. It's not psychological either. It's audible. So when and where is this year's AA meet, so we can all hear what you guys are chuntering on about?? I am not sure we are going to be able to put one together this year. There is a lot going on around those of us who organise this stuff, but if someone wants to take the reigns and become the official organiser...let me know. Only stipulation is that its central England based. |
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Post by bencat on Apr 8, 2023 12:43:34 GMT
The good thing is you trusted Alan enough to decide it was worth trying and you then did it . You then found that Alan was right and with Tony,s help some more of us have made the leap . As Alan says the difference is obvious and beneficial . I stick by my statement of you have a digital chain that accepts a clock signal you should hear this . Anyone going to the Wam Show this year will get the chance as I will have one set up in my room and will be fascinating to see what it does .
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 8, 2023 12:44:53 GMT
The good thing is you trusted Alan enough to decide it was worth trying and you then did it . You then found that Alan was right and with Tony,s help some more of us have made the leap . As Alan says the difference is obvious and beneficial . I stick by my statement of you have a digital chain that accepts a clock signal you should hear this . Anyone going to the Wam Show this year will get the chance as I will have one set up in my room and will be fascinating to see what it does . I never rule anything out until I hear something personally, and for £13....wasn't much of a gamble was it lol. I've spent far more on less reliable intel 🤣 |
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Post by bencat on Apr 8, 2023 15:08:39 GMT
Sorry to say but I do know what Oli means . Once you hear the better music quality it is quite difficult to go back to what it was before . I just tried it now for three tracks and the sound was now sounding very 2D and lacking life . Yes I know this sounds stupid as before this I was very happy with sound but now it is just lacking reality and life . There is no way I would go back to that when I have a choice .
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optical
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Post by optical on Apr 8, 2023 15:14:24 GMT
If you turned it back on the next day after removing the clock you probably wouldn't have that immediate reference and you may not quite tweak what change has occured, but you'd probably still think it didn't sound quite as good as yesterday.
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Post by misterc on Apr 8, 2023 16:26:41 GMT
All that is happening is just you are now understanding the benefits of having more of the temporal information now being correctly assembled on sound stage, it has been this way for over 30 years in pro audio. Its petty much a no brainer I have only had one client who couldn't not tell a difference with a master clock added or not despite having a 10Mhz input on streaming dac, although subsequently I have tried another model with the same clock and oddly enough it works?
Keep on plugging away chaps its nice to see others having smiles put on there faces despite bits are bits
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 9, 2023 7:25:19 GMT
Sorry to say but I do know what Oli means . Once you hear the better music quality it is quite difficult to go back to what it was before . I just tried it now for three tracks and the sound was now sounding very 2D and lacking life . Yes I know this sounds stupid as before this I was very happy with sound but now it is just lacking reality and life . There is no way I would go back to that when I have a choice . It doesn't sound stupid at all. Not to those of us who are experiencing the same thing! What's encouraging is that you are using a completely different device to me, and a completely different DAC, and yet you appear to be getting very similar results. This suggests that the phenomenon isn't exclusive and could occur on a wider scale. Which is brilliant. I listened to "Something in the way" by Nirvana last night. 25th anniversary 24bit remastered version. The only light in the room was coming from the ridiculous amount of LEDs I have on all this bloody digital kit lol. It was late on in the evening and Kurt's voice haunted the room. It was so eerie how it cuts in and out of the darkness. Centre point in the soundstage like he was sat in-between the speakers. The clarity of the diction made this sound extremely realistic. Obviously, as the song introduced the rest of the band, it lost a little bit of the intimacy of what felt like a one on one performance, but given the choice to pay £13 to experience that, I'd pay it every time. It doesn't do it as well without the little clock. It isn't as real, or as tangible. It's still excellent, but that bit more you gain from the clock is now putting my digital well into the realm of vinyls ability to recreate believability, soundstage depth, space and width. Maybe the Uber DACs do this already, but I haven't experienced that yet. |
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Post by mikeyb on Apr 9, 2023 7:50:49 GMT
My Logitech Transporter has a clock input and in the settings there's an option for an external clock. Would the £13 one work and how would you hook it up? I only see outputs on it? Or am I being thick? More than happy with the Transporter as is into my Denafrips Ares II but happy to try and improve it too 😉   |
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Post by bencat on Apr 9, 2023 8:02:46 GMT
As I said Oli at the Wam Show I will be using the following system to which I will add a Mutec and the LB Clock .
Raspbery Pi 4GB running Picoreplayer as stand alone Logitech Media Server with 2 TB SSD HD for Library with LPSU - Logitech Squeezbox Touch as player digital out with LPSU - Mutec MC3 usb + with LPSU being fed by Leo Bodnar Clock with LPSU - MiniDSP DDRC 4 acting as Digital Crossover , Digital Volume , DIRAC Live DSP with LPSU - 2 x Quad 405 Fidele Audio Upgraded power amplifiers one per side feeding Bass and Treble to Linn Sara 9,s with crossovers removed and feeding directly to the drivers .
Now I listen to this system most days in a spare bedroom while I iron my clothes for that day . It currently has no clock adjustment or even usb reclocking as I do not use usb out in this chain . It sounds really good with all the good things of the passive Sara,s but more much better speed and more natural tone . This is not a neutral speaker and is not something everyone is going to like . Also being used hard up against the wall for Isobarik loading it loses out on great imaging . All told quite happy with and gets me dancing and singing in the morning .
I am not going to add the Mutec and LB until I get to the show no dry runs to see how it sounds instead I am going to let it surprise me on the day and really see if what we are all talking about is a universal thing and just applies to any digital chain that can accept an external clock input . Sadly none of my other digital equipment can accept an external clock system other than the Mutec so I am not able to see what the clock would direct compared to via the Mutec but perhaps Tony could advise on this as he has the units to be able to do this . So it will be as much a surprise to me what I can hear on the weekend as my visitors . I will do a write up on what I found after the show . If possible I will also get anyone who visits to comment on one or other of the forums as to how they feel the overall system sounds and we can add that to the pot . I am caught in two minds over doing switched listening sessions reverting to the Mutec internal clock then back to the LB clock but I feel this is a little gimmicky and at this time I am going to just play the system with LB clock and see what reaction I get .
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Post by bencat on Apr 9, 2023 8:10:02 GMT
MickeyB The connection of an external clock would be from the clock by bnc cable to the LT in the Word Clock input . I think you then choose Word Clock input . Just a couple of points that I think you would need to check . Yours is a very old unit and you need to find out what frequency the Word Clock input accepts most units today use 10Hz but yours may be different .
Another point to be clear on the £13 unit is just a raw circuit board with an OXCO clock on you will need to add a power supply and a case for safety . If you have the skills for this as Oli and Alan do then you will not need me to explain or advise . If like me you do not have any of those skills then either ask Oli or Alan if they could help or buy the Leo Bodnar clock which comes ready made and plug and play . Tony has put how to set the LB up in another thread just follow his instructions .
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 9, 2023 8:24:54 GMT
MickeyB The connection of an external clock would be from the clock by bnc cable to the LT in the Word Clock input . I think you then choose Word Clock input . Just a couple of points that I think you would need to check . Yours is a very old unit and you need to find out what frequency the Word Clock input accepts most units today use 10Hz but yours may be different . Another point to be clear on the £13 unit is just a raw circuit board with an OXCO clock on you will need to add a power supply and a case for safety . If you have the skills for this as Oli and Alan do then you will not need me to explain or advise . If like me you do not have any of those skills then either ask Oli or Alan if they could help or buy the Leo Bodnar clock which comes ready made and plug and play . Tony has put how to set the LB up in another thread just follow his instructions . You just need a Wallwart outputting 6-12v It was good enough to demonstrate a difference in performance. Go LPSU once you're convinced 🤷🏻♂️ |
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Post by bencat on Apr 9, 2023 9:59:11 GMT
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Post by macca on Apr 9, 2023 18:15:40 GMT
All that is happening is just you are now understanding the benefits of having more of the temporal information now being correctly assembled on sound stage, it has been this way for over 30 years in pro audio. For recording, in some situations. Not for playback. |
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Post by stevew on Apr 9, 2023 19:29:39 GMT
Christ.. don’t you start.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 9, 2023 20:07:17 GMT
Christ.. don’t you start. 😂 |
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Post by macca on Apr 10, 2023 7:22:23 GMT
well I'm sorry but it's true.
Subjective impressions are one thing but complete bollocks needs calling out.
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Post by stevew on Apr 10, 2023 7:38:22 GMT
well I'm sorry but it's true. Subjective impressions are one thing but complete bollocks needs calling out. Mate, I’ve messaged you. Context is everything |
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Post by macca on Apr 10, 2023 8:39:24 GMT
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Post by bencat on Apr 10, 2023 8:51:53 GMT
Please note that Hugh Robjohns is more involved in TV work than recording studios also that this article is from 2013 not exactly cutting edge and is just one man,s view of the subject . Having spoken to a few people I know working in local and London studios really recording commercial music they have all confirmed that in their mastering suites they all use Master Clocks. A few but not all also said they employed a Master Clock in the recording process as well . All of these are commercial studios doing the work of creating what we are listening to and they seem convinced it is a good thing . Mr Robjohns on the other hand who is now a teacher at the BBC technical division has most of his experience in TV studio work and perhaps of interest is that none of the programs he has worked on were music programs . |
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Post by macca on Apr 10, 2023 8:58:10 GMT
Please note that Hugh Robjohns is more involved in TV work than recording studios also that this article is from 2013 not exactly cutting edge and is just one man,s view of the subject . Having spoken to a few people I know working in local and London studios really recording commercial music they have all confirmed that in their mastering suites they all use Master Clocks. A few but not all also said they employed a Master Clock in the recording process as well . All of these are commercial studios doing the work of creating what we are listening to and they seem convinced it is a good thing . Mr Robjohns on the other hand who is now a teacher at the BBC technical division has most of his experience in TV studio work and perhaps of interest is that none of the programs he has worked on were music programs . read the article - yes many studios use mater clocks - for recording! Not for playback! It is especially important for A/V work. The article explains exactly why. How digital audio works has not changed since it was invented, the article is not out of date in any respect. |
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Post by misterc on Apr 10, 2023 10:22:27 GMT
Morning Martin Yes, we use master clocks in our two recoding studio to tie all of the DAW's/ recorders/ mixers etc together pretty essential really for a singing from the same hymn sheet perspective regarding timing of the various devices during recordings and oddly enough playback. YOU cannot extract ANY information which NOT encoded on the recording simply as its not there, I feel you suggestion is that during mixing and mastering the engineers are simulating artificial staging and depth, decay etc during those processes which is how many recordings then yes. What I believe the chaps are attempting top get across is this, by care use of clocking you will bring out the recording space more the actual room or auditorium etc where that recording took place, this is not just about detail this is more spatial entirely which takes you further towards recreating the actual event itself. The information is and has always been on the recordings no question at all, it the ability of the set to be able to RENDER those spatial cues and decays more completely in the overall picture nothing more. Does listening which out a clock make it unlistenable of course not, not by any means, however once you have tasted a clock in your system it virtually impossible to go back listening without one. It makes that amount of profound difference imho. Yes I do sell them and have been using them for nearly 30 years, but I also use them for other aspects outside of audio as well. Even a relatively modest clock set up properly will help you enjoy music more imho. You can tell I'm making it all up and just using my influence (lol) to lull people in a false sense of security and that It's all in my mind and its just con, I wish it was, that way I could have save enough outlay to purchase a couple of houses. For the rest of you, you have your own experiences with various different clocks in your own systems without any outside influence please do share your thoughts.
*imaginary* improves wrought by quality aftermarket clocking:
Greater spatial aweness of placement of instruments and the placing on the sound stage
Much improved stage depth and note decay
Sound stage boundaires *can* disappear and the walls of the room are no longer the limiting factors for stage boundaries
Bass timing, texture and atriculation all gain greater impetuous
The overall sense of musical flow improves with a greater sense of ease to the reording
Dynamic layering, attack and slam all gain an upgrade BUT yet are not forced like chord or naim like in manifesting themselves
Above all the music becomes imbibed with a more top to bottom cohesiveness and linearity.
Some of this could be achieved back in the day by changing your CD players or dac internal clock as well.
Its all maths as Martin will point out and he is correct, its the perfect model (aside rounding down to 20Khz lol) but then that's the point is a model.
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Post by macca on Apr 10, 2023 11:08:45 GMT
Morning Martin Yes, we use master clocks in our two recoding studio to tie all of the DAW's/ recorders/ mixers etc together pretty essential really for a singing from the same hymn sheet perspective regarding timing of the various devices during recordings and oddly enough playback. YOU cannot extract ANY information which NOT encoded on the recording simply as its not there, I feel you suggestion is that during mixing and mastering the engineers are simulating artificial staging and depth, decay etc during those processes which is how many recordings then yes. What I believe the chaps are attempting top get across is this, by care use of clocking you will bring out the recording space more the actual room or auditorium etc where that recording took place, this is not just about detail this is more spatial entirely which takes you further towards recreating the actual event itself. The information is and has always been on the recordings no question at all, it the ability of the set to be able to RENDER those spatial cues and decays more completely in the overall picture nothing more. Does listening which out a clock make it unlistenable of course not, not by any means, however once you have tasted a clock in your system it virtually impossible to go back listening without one. It makes that amount of profound difference imho. Yes I do sell them and have been using them for nearly 30 years, but I also use them for other aspects outside of audio as well. Even a relatively modest clock set up properly will help you enjoy music more imho. You can tell I'm making it all up and just using my influence (lol) to lull people in a false sense of security and that It's all in my mind and its just con, I wish it was, that way I could have save enough outlay to purchase a couple of houses. For the rest of you, you have your own experiences with various different clocks in your own systems without any outside influence please do share your thoughts.
*imaginary* improves wrought by quality aftermarket clocking:
Greater spatial aweness of placement of instruments and the placing on the sound stage
Much improved stage depth and note decay
Sound stage boundaires *can* disappear and the walls of the room are no longer the limiting factors for stage boundaries
Bass timing, texture and atriculation all gain greater impetuous
The overall sense of musical flow improves with a greater sense of ease to the reording
Dynamic layering, attack and slam all gain an upgrade BUT yet are not forced like chord or naim like in manifesting themselves
Above all the music becomes imbibed with a more top to bottom cohesiveness and linearity.
Some of this could be achieved back in the day by changing your CD players or dac internal clock as well.
Its all maths as Martin will point out and he is correct, its the perfect model (aside rounding down to 20Khz lol) but then that's the point is a model.
Not disputing anyone's subjective experiences, just pointing out that master clocks are used in studios for very specific reasons in the recording process, and that they are not there to improve playback. Let's not write technical cheques our asses can't cash. Am also not disputing that there could be some edge cases - USB transfer with old equipment for example - where they might help. Also, as pointed out in the article I linked to, you may actually get some degradation of the signal that will be an audible difference, and which some may like (see also - vinyl playback). Even something as stupid as a cable lifer could make a difference in an edge-case situation (mains power distribution cable under the floor, speaker cable laid on top) but edge cases are rare and we can't extrapolate from the specific to the general. I do like the idea of just buying a box, plugging it in, and getting an instant uplift in SQ. Why not? Regrettably it just isn't that simple or I would have the best system in the world. But in my set up there is nothing I can do to further improve the quality of the digital front end. It is already as close to perfection as is possible. I don't use USB, but even with worst case USB connection you can see that with this DAC jitter is way, way below audible levels:  I do wonder from some of the descriptions if there is not something happening in the frequency domain with these reclockers. Most audible differences are changes in frequency response. Without investigating this aspect of the specific member's systems it cannot be disregarded as a cause. |
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Post by stevew on Apr 10, 2023 11:14:55 GMT
Thank you Tony.
Makes sense.
So what advantages/improvements are to be gained by spending more?
Andrew is obviously happy with his investment in his Leo Bodnar. Whether it’s better than the Chinese ones that Alan and Oliver have will need a bake off.
However.. is there a mid ground between these and the Uber expensive Mutec versions?
I care not whether it’s a frequency improvement… I know what I hear and oi loiks it.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 10, 2023 11:19:45 GMT
macca"I do wonder from some of the descriptions if there is not something happening in the frequency domain with these reclockers. Most audible differences are changes in frequency response. Without investigating this aspect of the specific member's systems it cannot be disregarded as a cause" you know, thats a very fair point. Can we measure this to rule it out misterc?
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