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Post by lurch on Oct 22, 2022 14:49:42 GMT
Thanks for a great write up, just out of curiosity did Wizzmax feel the same about the comparison between your Black Ice and the pair of more expensive dac's. We've heard a number of dac's, the dCS has bettered all of them. We were hoping to go to a dac bake-off with a couple of members from a different forum, one using a rather nice valve dac. Yep Robin felt the same re MSB & dcs.
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Post by lurch on Oct 23, 2022 13:01:22 GMT
Audition Part 2. At home with a dCS Network Bridge 21-23/10/2022
My Home System Pimped Node2/SBooster Eco mk2/Ultra mk2 Mutec MC-3+usb Pimped Black Ice Glass fx DSD wifi MFA Baby Reference V1 Nord ONE UP SE NC500M Martin Logan Summit. Power Inspired 1500S regen. Chord Shawline ICs & Epic XL SC Assorted branded PCs
NOTE: dCS Network Bridge wired into Mutec via AES/EBU (VD/Neutrik) + 2x VD, BNC clock cables (dCS as slave).
Having had an afternoon being blasted by some impressive kit during my visit to Studio AV, I thought the 1st thing I should do once I’d managed to shoehorn the dCS NWB into my rack, was re-acquaint myself with the Node2 sound signature. After around 20 minutes I decided it was time to have a listen to the NWB. Nope. Had to spend 10 mins level matching Node to dCS ready for the a/b, once done I settled down for a listen (all necessary dCS setup done at SAV so was just plug N play) I setup the same track on Qobuz, as I was currently playing on the Node then swapped to the NWB. Hmmm! Are we getting some deja vu going on here? Well we're only halfway through a track, let’s leave it playing for a bit before swapping back. I swapped back to the Node after about 30 mins and realised, yes there is a difference. I spent the rest of the evening going back and forth between the Node & NWB giving each 20 - 30 mins between swaps, finally going to bed at 11:35, so an initial a/b session of nearly 7 hours. I was awake again at 5am so on went the system and the a/b-ing continued as a solo venture until Dave @bigfool1956 arrived at 1pm, he then lent his reviewers ears to the evaluation. Due to time constraints and his expertise we basically swapped between devices and repeated tracks over the course of about 2 hours, at the end of which (surprisingly for me) our views on the Pros & Cons of the NWB Vs Node were pretty much the same, though he preferred both units direct through the BI (No Mutec). Had a couple of hours break whilst I ran some errands, and following a chat with Tony Sallis (Coherent) I spent the rest of the Saturday (another 7 hours) listening only to the NWB, as that way when I plugged the Node back in Monday or Tuesday, any differences (if any) would be more apparent.
Node2 Vs NWB. DIFFERENCES. The NWB gives you a bit more of everything: Slightly larger, deeper soundstage, greater air and space. More inner detail and better definition across the frequency range. It's a nicely detailed sound. The only area the NWB loses out to the Node is on richness/warmth, maybe that's a function of the less defined lower mids/upper bass, but that doesn’t matter as I happen to like it. BUT!!!! The dCS Mosaic App is the most Prehistoric piece of garbage I’ve ever had the misfortune to encounter. Aside from the fact it allows me to set a downsampling frequency so its output is able to work with legacy DACS, in my case 24/96 on Coax and Toslink spdif. It’s UI is fugly and clunky, it uses a 3rd party service (airable) for internet radio, and whilst I can access any of the mixes on RP which I use for 95% of casual listening, it does not support album art for (artist/album) nor does it support the 3 dot menu for direct access to the artist on Qobuz, Tidal. I know I could get Roon/HQPlayer et al for this but that's an additional expense.
CONCLUSION
It’s now 1:30pm Sunday, I’ve been listening to the NWB now for near as damn it 31 hours, not bad going since I only fired it up here around 6pm on Friday. I think I’ve given it a fair crack of the whip, and I’ve enjoyed listening to it, but there was no ‘Fook me sideways with a bargepole, I can see where my investment is going’ moment. I mean, come-off-it, this NWB should have been a no-brainer SQ wise. A £1,000 Pimped Node/Sbooster/Ultra combo Vs a £4,000 NWB. Where’s that decent level of additional SQ that £3,000 should bring to the table. Yes there were improvements in the sound Vs the Node but marry this to the seriously shite App that would have me wanting to use my phone or tablet as a projectile, and there’s no way I’m putting my hand in my pocket for the NWB to the tune of £1800 less what I could get back on the Node.
So that’s it, I spent the week getting excited about a serious upgrade to my digital streaming admittedly at a cost of between £1,400 & £3,200 but if the SQ uplift was there I’d have splashed the cash. It's not been a wasted exercise though as it’s been an education, maybe I need to lower my expectations, or possibly I’ve got a better streaming rig than I realised. This process has not finished yet as I have a couple more manufacturers devices to investigate over the next couple of weeks, these devices however whilst being in a similar price bracket (one via the used market) they have additional value added facilities that could sway me. The idea being that if I can't get as large an SQ uplift for my <£3.2k then the useful extras could be sufficient compensation.
The Manufacturers and devices Im looking at are: Cocktail Audio X50 D Innuos Zen mini mk3 < Zenith mk3
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Post by macca on Oct 23, 2022 13:17:07 GMT
You were going by price = performance, I've not found it to be true for digital myself.
Here's my price = performance summary:
Turntables, speakers, phono stages, cartridges - usually, yes, although as always there is some tat at crazy prices
Amplifiers - circumstantial - amplifiers that are immune to difficult speaker loads tend to be expensive.
Digital - pretty much never. Maybe if you get off the bottom rung there's a bit of a jump up but I doubt even that these days. Presentation may differ slightly, granted, but actual sound quality improvement as you spend more? Nope.
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Post by lurch on Oct 23, 2022 13:50:48 GMT
You were going by price = performance, I've not found it to be true for digital myself. Here's my price = performance As I said it's been an educational journey. If the Innuos or Cocktail can give me a similar uplift in SQ to the NWB, or slightly better + give me the additional functionality of ripping and storing then that balances the cost/performance equation far better for me.
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Post by firebottle on Oct 23, 2022 14:47:13 GMT
Will be interesting to hear how you get on with the Innuos and Cocktail.
I have the Zen mini Mk2, the mK3 is supposedly better with internal linear low noise supplies.
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Post by antonio on Oct 23, 2022 17:20:13 GMT
lurch I can't really agree with you regarding the Mosaic app, it is nowhere near the quality of Roon, but to say it is fugly/clunky is going over the top. What are you comparing with? I have read other dCS users actually prefer the sound quality of Mosaic over Roon, we didn't find a difference to be honest, but what it shows others are able to use the Mosaic app. I'll be interested how you find the apps/sq on the Nova Fidelity and Innuous players
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Post by lurch on Oct 23, 2022 17:46:51 GMT
Was comparing it with BluOS, but guess it depends on what streaming ECO system your familiar with as to what you think of Mosaic. Will see what the other two Apps are like then comment further.
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Post by lurch on Oct 26, 2022 13:02:10 GMT
Off to wrap my ears around an Innuos ZenITH mk3 this afternoon. Will pit it against my Pimped Node2 direct into my DAC, this will hopefully lay things to rest once and for all. If a ZenITH can't show the Node a clean pair of heels then I doubt anything at a price I'm prepared to pay will do it for me.
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Post by misterc on Oct 26, 2022 16:05:05 GMT
Off to wrap my ears around an Innuos ZenITH mk3 this afternoon. Will pit it against my Pimped Node2 direct into my DAC, this will hopefully lay things to rest once and for all. If a ZenITH can't show the Node a clean pair of heels then I doubt anything at a price I'm prepared to pay will do it for me. Like I said John, it will be interesting I feel your systems ability is being hindered else where.
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Post by iceman16 on Oct 27, 2022 10:57:21 GMT
John, I used to ask myself. Do I need to spend 3x the price or even more from my current streamer or dac for a 10% improvement? Next question, is it my main or primary source for listening or my vinyl rig?
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Post by lurch on Oct 27, 2022 13:59:12 GMT
Had my session, and the upshot is, I've bought it!!!
The Department of Music 3-6pm Wednesday 26/10/2022 SHOP SYSTEM. (DAC = my Pimped Black Ice DSD) Innuos ZenITH mk3 Naim 252 + Supercap Naim NAP300 Kudos Titan 606
Node > BI = Chord Shawline Coax. ZenITH > BI = Chord Epic usb. No Mutec this time. Went into this audition with a different mindset having seen I wasn't going to get that smack in the mouth difference I've heard when upgrading analogue.
The basis I worked on was: 1. Does it deliver better SQ than the Pimped Node2/SBooster/Ultra mk2 combo. 2. Is the SQ uplift on par with spending similar ££s on a cartridge Change. 3. Does it have value added features I would use.
Both the Node and ZenITH were hardwired to the network, I then spent 20 mins dialling myself into the dealers kit via the Node & BI. I'd also compiled a 10 track Qobuz playlist to keep music choices simple initially. Let battle commence! Things were very interesting from the start, it was evident straight away that the ZenITH was giving me even more of what I'd heard with the dcs, being tighter, sweeter and more cohesive. I would say in general terms the sound was clean and smooth with great timbre. Switching back to the Node the sound came over as a tad crude by comparison, there wasn't the same level of extension in the lf & hf or separation within a piece. Putting on the track In a state (Unkle, Never, Never Land) when the music got busy it seemed to knot together on the Node, whereas the ZenITH just relaxed and untangled the mix so you could appreciate what was happening. I spent around another 20 minutes swapping devices, then gave up, switched to the ZenITH, unplugged and packed away the Node. I then spent another hour listening to allsorts of stuff whilst haggling with John (the dealer), I didn't commit at the end, even though I knew I wanted it and I think John did too, but didn't want to make his, life that easy. Rang this morning and asked when he gonna deliver it, (well he only 20 mins away) should have it with me in a few hours.
To answer how it matched my 3 decision criteria. 1. Does it deliver better SQ than the Pimped Node2/SBooster/Ultra mk2 combo. Yes, cleaner, smoother, tighter, more extended. 2. Is the SQ uplift on par with spending similar ££s on a cartridge Change. Yes definitely 3. Does it have value added features I would use. YES > Ripper + Storage & Slick Roon-like App that's intuitive and a joy to use.
Now I need to sort selling the Node, Mutec (no USB out, so 24/96 cap on BI gets reinstated) and a couple of 4 month old Shawline Coax.
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Post by antonio on Oct 27, 2022 17:17:35 GMT
Well done in buying the Zenith, I'm sure it will prove even more successful over time.
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optical
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Post by optical on Oct 27, 2022 20:04:17 GMT
Had my session, and the upshot is, I've bought it!!! The Department of Music 3-6pm Wednesday 26/10/2022 SHOP SYSTEM. (DAC = my Pimped Black Ice DSD) Innuos ZenITH mk3 Naim 252 + Supercap Naim NAP300 Kudos Titan 606 Node > BI = Chord Shawline Coax. ZenITH > BI = Chord Epic usb. No Mutec this time. Went into this audition with a different mindset having seen I wasn't going to get that smack in the mouth difference I've heard when upgrading analogue. The basis I worked on was: 1. Does it deliver better SQ than the Pimped Node2/SBooster/Ultra mk2 combo. 2. Is the SQ uplift on par with spending similar ££s on a cartridge Change. 3. Does it have value added features I would use. Both the Node and ZenITH were hardwired to the network, I then spent 20 mins dialling myself into the dealers kit via the Node & BI. I'd also compiled a 10 track Qobuz playlist to keep music choices simple initially. Let battle commence! Things were very interesting from the start, it was evident straight away that the ZenITH was giving me even more of what I'd heard with the dcs, being tighter, sweeter and more cohesive. I would say in general terms the sound was clean and smooth with great timbre. Switching back to the Node the sound came over as a tad crude by comparison, there wasn't the same level of extension in the lf & hf or separation within a piece. Putting on the track In a state (Unkle, Never, Never Land) when the music got busy it seemed to knot together on the Node, whereas the ZenITH just relaxed and untangled the mix so you could appreciate what was happening. I spent around another 20 minutes swapping devices, then gave up, switched to the ZenITH, unplugged and packed away the Node. I then spent another hour listening to allsorts of stuff whilst haggling with John (the dealer), I didn't commit at the end, even though I knew I wanted it and I think John did too, but didn't want to make his, life that easy. Rang this morning and asked when he gonna deliver it, (well he only 20 mins away) should have it with me in a few hours. To answer how it matched my 3 decision criteria. 1. Does it deliver better SQ than the Pimped Node2/SBooster/Ultra mk2 combo. Yes, cleaner, smoother, tighter, more extended. 2. Is the SQ uplift on par with spending similar ££s on a cartridge Change. Yes definitely 3. Does it have value added features I would use. YES > Ripper + Storage & Slick Roon-like App that's intuitive and a joy to use. Now I need to sort selling the Node, Mutec (no USB out, so 24/96 cap on BI gets reinstated) and a couple of 4 month old Shawline Coax. Decisive, well done on the purchase. Methodical approach has worked well it seems. No point in upgrading for upgrades sake but sounds like you were genuinely and repeatedly impressed by the upturn in performance. 👍
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 27, 2022 23:07:07 GMT
I'm confused....why do you have to sell the Mutec?
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Post by lurch on Oct 28, 2022 5:20:10 GMT
I'm confused....why do you have to sell the Mutec? My DAC capped at 24/96 on SPDIF, 24/192 on usb only. Mutec has no USB out so I limited to 24/96 replay if keep. This then means several albums on my NAS which I like I can't play unless I also plumb a 2nd dac in. Anyway SQ from ZenITH via USB exceeds that of Node & Mutec via Coax so going to move them both on.
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Post by stevew on Oct 28, 2022 6:49:56 GMT
Great write up. Really informative and logical. Totally helpful in pointers for when I’m in a position to change and possibly upgrade the digital side of my system. Thank you
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optical
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Post by optical on Oct 28, 2022 6:55:16 GMT
I'm confused....why do you have to sell the Mutec? My DAC capped at 24/96 on SPDIF, 24/192 on usb only. Mutec has no USB out so I limited to 24/96 replay if keep. This then means several albums on my NAS which I like I can't play unless I also plumb a 2nd dac in. Anyway SQ from ZenITH via USB exceeds that of Node & Mutec via Coax so going to move them both on. Sorry if you already answered this but have you compared using the Zen with the Mutec (via coax or however you can connect it) playing 24/96 to just playing the same files out of the Zen without the Mutec? Might not be the case but you might get a better SQ with the Mutec still in the chain (evn if it limits the rez)? Depends on how attached you are to those higher rez albums I guess (although I would suggest with the Mutec in the chain they would sound better at 24/96 than at higher rez and without the Mutec, so you could obtain the 24/96 versions eventually and stick with it from here on in.) Only IF the SQ is better of course. Spent quite a bit of time messing around with higher rez/DSD etc but didn't improve things enough for me (if at all), although admittedly the equipment you're testing it on trumps what I was using back then. Just a thought anyway.
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Post by misterc on Oct 28, 2022 7:58:44 GMT
I have many, many Innous owners with Mutec's and they will not part with them even when compared to their own the Phoneix usb model However all their dac's are capable of higher sample rates on AES / SPDIF. Alan I believe is also a Zen user.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 28, 2022 8:11:25 GMT
I'm confused....why do you have to sell the Mutec? My DAC capped at 24/96 on SPDIF, 24/192 on usb only. Mutec has no USB out so I limited to 24/96 replay if keep. This then means several albums on my NAS which I like I can't play unless I also plumb a 2nd dac in. Anyway SQ from ZenITH via USB exceeds that of Node & Mutec via Coax so going to move them both on. Why not download the the albums in 24/96 and keep the Mutec. The Mutec will only improve your new setup. Throwing the Mutec out the gain more bitrate/sample rate is madness IMO. I'd at least try that before parting with it.
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Post by stevew on Oct 28, 2022 8:54:08 GMT
My DAC capped at 24/96 on SPDIF, 24/192 on usb only. Mutec has no USB out so I limited to 24/96 replay if keep. This then means several albums on my NAS which I like I can't play unless I also plumb a 2nd dac in. Anyway SQ from ZenITH via USB exceeds that of Node & Mutec via Coax so going to move them both on. Why not download the the albums in 24/96 and keep the Mutec. The Mutec will only improve your new setup. Throwing the Mutec out the gain more bitrate/sample rate is madness IMO. I'd at least try that before parting with it. Yeah.. wot he said. Pondered all sorts of dac & streamer changes but the Mutec for me ain’t going nowhere
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Post by misterc on Oct 28, 2022 10:11:55 GMT
Any Mac users with Mutec on here at all?
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Post by lurch on Oct 28, 2022 13:18:42 GMT
My DAC capped at 24/96 on SPDIF, 24/192 on usb only. Mutec has no USB out so I limited to 24/96 replay if keep. This then means several albums on my NAS which I like I can't play unless I also plumb a 2nd dac in. Anyway SQ from ZenITH via USB exceeds that of Node & Mutec via Coax so going to move them both on. Why not download the the albums in 24/96 and keep the Mutec. The Mutec will only improve your new setup. Throwing the Mutec out the gain more bitrate/sample rate is madness IMO. I'd at least try that before parting with it. No need to re-download, can set a 96 cap within Innuos Sense App. Anyway have just tried the Mutec with the ZenITH and what I heard was absolutely disgusting, music + extreme hash. Have spoke to Tony, and then checked my ZenITH setup with Allen, setup is correct so gonna send Mutec to Tony for a health check as possibly a problem with the usb input.
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