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Post by lurch on Oct 15, 2022 15:20:43 GMT
As many of you know from my various wafflings on here, I have a very good Analogue and CD setup and my current streaming rig isn't to shabby (Pimped Node2 > Mutec > Black Ice Glass fx DSD using Coax) though probably mid-fi.
I currently have my IA MB845SEs out for audition with the resultant possibility of £2.8k burning a hole in my pocket and depending on what I change then another £500 - £800 could be added to that. This would give me a reasonably healthy budget of £3.3k - £3.6k to really give my digital a kick.
For the moment I've been looking at DACs and 2 that have caught my attention are currently in the Wam classifieds, an Audio-GD R-7 HE 2020 R2R DAC (£1650) and an Aqua La Scala MKII Optological DAC(£3600) VALVES!! 😍😍😍 but 💷💷💷💷.
I really love the sound of my BI DAC, but it's inability to do 24/192 on SPDIF & Toslink is bugging me, what else is there out there that would give me that wonderful smooth, non-digital sound within budget?
OR
Would I be better upgrading my streaming transport and if so to what?
Not interested in the Pi route, anything that's only available in Silver 🤮, or relies on an apple device to control it (don't own any so added expense). Happy buying used to get serious vfm.
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Post by antonio on Oct 15, 2022 16:28:52 GMT
That question certainly puts the cat among the pigeons John.
My opinion, upgrade the streamer keeping a good portion of your budget back, see how you get on before upgrading the dac.
I've got a new streamer on the way, unsure when it will get here, next week or the week after.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 15, 2022 17:38:56 GMT
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Post by lurch on Oct 15, 2022 18:12:42 GMT
Hmm, reviews of the X50D & Pro aren't good, once the 845s are sold I will have to get out and about an audition a few things. When I look on eBay etc all the bumf seems to be written in Swahili.
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Post by alit on Oct 15, 2022 18:37:01 GMT
Very happy with my Lumin. Nice looking kit too.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 15, 2022 18:52:32 GMT
Hmm, reviews of the X50D & Pro aren't good, once the 845s are sold I will have to get out and about an audition a few things. When I look on eBay etc all the bumf seems to be written in Swahili. It's a Korean brand, but they are really well made. Tony is a distributor in the UK I believe, so there is UK support for them too. I had a streamer of theirs way down the ladder, but it was excellent. Then i heard one in MisterCs system. It was excellent. Then there's the Aurelic G2 I had on loan here....which I'd recommend too, but it's an Apple dependant device. |
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Post by misterc on Oct 15, 2022 19:25:16 GMT
Hmm, reviews of the X50D & Pro aren't good, once the 845s are sold I will have to get out and about an audition a few things. When I look on eBay etc all the bumf seems to be written in Swahili. Try listening to one, before dismissing anything John Listening is very different from reading 
Personally I have sixteen streamers including a Pink Faun/Rockna/Taiko, guess which one I use most regularly, I've had a few people sneer, after listening they go all quiet and very sheepish.
I would look at spreading your funds and getting some decent wires in the system first, Oli can help out there.
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Post by lurch on Oct 16, 2022 21:09:26 GMT
Following a PM from Dave (Antonio) and a bit of a read up, I went onto fleabay and added a Lab 12 DAC1 Reference, to my watch list (it was on for £1900 OBO). I'm now rather techy as I've just received and offer from the seller of £1400. Now need to chase round to get some ££s together as only have 48hrs to accept, and at that price it's too good to turn down. Aaaarrrrgggghhhh!!!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 16, 2022 21:12:02 GMT
Following a PM from Dave (Antonio) and a bit of a read up, I went onto fleabay and added a Lab 12 DAC1 Reference, to my watch list (it was on for £1900 OBO). I'm now rather techy as I've just received and offer from the seller of £1400. Now need to chase round to get some ££s together as only have 48hrs to accept, and at that price it's too good to turn down. Aaaarrrrgggghhhh!!! Glad you took my advice 😂😂😂 "Eight Philips TDA1543 multibit chips, four per channel"..... I've got that exact chip in a £4 DAC here. I am pretty sure the Teradac (£400) has eight 1543 per channel? home.teradak.com/products/57.htmlIf you ABSOLUTELY want a valve DAC..... www.audio-markt.de/market/lampizator-baltic-5321894918Keep your eyes peeled for a Lampi Amber 3....they are very good. I turned one down for £1700 recently. It's now sold, I have asked for you. |
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Post by lurch on Oct 16, 2022 21:34:29 GMT
Following a PM from Dave (Antonio) and a bit of a read up, I went onto fleabay and added a Lab 12 DAC1 Reference, to my watch list (it was on for £1900 OBO). I'm now rather techy as I've just received and offer from the seller of £1400. Now need to chase round to get some ££s together as only have 48hrs to accept, and at that price it's too good to turn down. Aaaarrrrgggghhhh!!! Glad you took my advice 😂😂😂 "Eight Philips TDA1543 multibit chips, four per channel"..... I've got that exact chip in a £4 DAC here. I am pretty sure the Teradac (£400) has eight 1543 per channel? home.teradak.com/products/57.htmlI'd not part with £1400 for that lab12 .....but if you do, I hope you enjoy it.    It has all my wants (NOS, R2R, Valves) but am sure I will have calmed down by tomorrow, the good thing is the seller (Studio AV) is only 45 miles away so either 2moz or Tues I can pop up and have a listen to it (will take my BI with me to AB against)and see if it matches the hype. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 16, 2022 22:12:49 GMT
Glad you took my advice 😂😂😂 "Eight Philips TDA1543 multibit chips, four per channel"..... I've got that exact chip in a £4 DAC here. I am pretty sure the Teradac (£400) has eight 1543 per channel? home.teradak.com/products/57.htmlI'd not part with £1400 for that lab12 .....but if you do, I hope you enjoy it. It has all my wants (NOS, R2R, Valves) but am sure I will have calmed down by tomorrow, the good thing is the seller (Studio AV) is only 45 miles away so either 2moz or Tues I can pop up and have a listen to it (will take my BI with me to AB against)and see if it matches the hype. The 1543 isn't R-2R. Well not as far as I understand it and certainly not in the opinion of the DIYaudio audio crowd. I seem to recall firebottle telling me why it isn't R-2R too. Maybe he can chip in. Ha! Accidental pun. Seriously John, I think you can do much better than this DAC for the same price... probably less. I'm not sure what yet, but there will be something. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 16, 2022 22:19:38 GMT
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Post by antonio on Oct 17, 2022 4:10:38 GMT
Following a PM from Dave (Antonio) and a bit of a read up, I went onto fleabay and added a Lab 12 DAC1 Reference, to my watch list (it was on for £1900 OBO). I'm now rather techy as I've just received and offer from the seller of £1400. Now need to chase round to get some ££s together as only have 48hrs to accept, and at that price it's too good to turn down. Aaaarrrrgggghhhh!!! Well done, I'll be very interested how you get on with a dem, don't know why Bigman has a downer on this. @bigman80 I would have recommended the Lampi Baltic, but it takes John over budget even if it could be purchased direct for £3600 direct from Audio Councsel. I also recommended the Gustard R26, used with a Roon Nucleus, again John would love the ease of use with Roon even though a lifetime sub would take him slightly over budget. Will the Audion play at 24/192? I see you're spending a lot of time looking at dac's, not giving you much time to look at turntables   |
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Post by lurch on Oct 17, 2022 6:01:07 GMT
Cheers for that Oli, however nothing floated my boat apart from the Denafrips which was silly money and even more silly once you add another £700 for import duties or the Gustard (as has a black option. A Sabre DAC, Really? And the rest were not black, also no chance of an audition. Will maybe hunt out a Gustard for an audition if there's a UK source.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 17, 2022 6:44:49 GMT
antonio The price (for the technology) is vastly overblown IMO. The chip it uses was described by Philips (who made it) as "economy" and in truth is...well, lacking refinement would be the audiophile description. If it was 8x 1541...then I'd be interested in what it sounded like. And yes, I do spend a lot of time looking at DACs.....because i am yet to find one that beats vinyl. lurch You do what you have to. The Terminator II or Holo May is where I aim to be in the next 6 months or so. Unless a TAD DAC pops up at the same price lol
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Post by misterc on Oct 17, 2022 7:01:30 GMT
R26 is surprisingly good
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 17, 2022 7:22:11 GMT
I do quite fancy one Tony. |
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Post by antonio on Oct 17, 2022 8:14:53 GMT
antonio The price (for the technology) is vastly overblown IMO. The chip it uses was described by Philips (who made it) as "economy" and in truth is...well, lacking refinement would be the audiophile description. If it was 8x 1541...then I'd be interested in what it sounded like. And yes, I do spend a lot of time looking at DACs.....because i am yet to find one that beats vinyl. lurch You do what you have to. The Terminator II or Holo May is where I aim to be in the next 6 months or so. Unless a TAD DAC pops up at the same price lol There's a man who's changed his tune, I thought you were into these older tech dac's. I will gladly wait until John has been for a dem, see how it compares with his Black Ice and go from there. According to the review, the Gustard is up the with the Terminator+ |
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Post by savvypaul on Oct 17, 2022 8:45:35 GMT
The price (for the technology) is vastly overblown IMO. The chip it uses was described by Philips (who made it) as "economy" and in truth is...well, lacking refinement would be the audiophile description. There are those that say much the same about anything with valves inside. But we all know that it's generally dangerous to generalise 😏 |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 17, 2022 9:25:15 GMT
The price (for the technology) is vastly overblown IMO. The chip it uses was described by Philips (who made it) as "economy" and in truth is...well, lacking refinement would be the audiophile description. There are those that say much the same about anything with valves inside. But we all know that it's generally dangerous to generalise 😏 Nice to see you are keeping tabs on the forum, Paul! How are you? Find yourself any 57s? People pay more for valve gear. It's always been the way. Old tech, but good tech....unlike the TDA1543 |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 17, 2022 9:27:34 GMT
antonio The price (for the technology) is vastly overblown IMO. The chip it uses was described by Philips (who made it) as "economy" and in truth is...well, lacking refinement would be the audiophile description. If it was 8x 1541...then I'd be interested in what it sounded like. And yes, I do spend a lot of time looking at DACs.....because i am yet to find one that beats vinyl. lurch You do what you have to. The Terminator II or Holo May is where I aim to be in the next 6 months or so. Unless a TAD DAC pops up at the same price lol There's a man who's changed his tune, I thought you were into these older tech dac's. I will gladly wait until John has been for a dem, see how it compares with his Black Ice and go from there. According to the review, the Gustard is up the with the Terminator+ I haven't changed my tune. R-2R is old tech! Lol. Just because they are whacking SMD resistors on PCBs in their hundreds (cheapest way of doing it btw) instead of manufacturing precision chips, doesn't make it new technology. |
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Post by antonio on Oct 17, 2022 9:34:29 GMT
@bigman80 It's not the size/age of your chips, it's the way you use them. |
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Post by savvypaul on Oct 17, 2022 9:56:20 GMT
Nice to see you are keeping tabs on the forum, Paul! How are you? Find yourself any 57s? People pay more for valve gear. It's always been the way. Old tech, but good tech....unlike the TDA1543 I'm very well, Oli. I hope you are, too. Along with Mumsnet and the Daily Mail below the line sections, AA has always been on my 'must read' list All the 57s I've been offered (around 10 pairs) have needed some sort of work - but the guys who would be able to do the work all want to sell full rebuilds. If I'm going to go down that route then I might as well find a non-working donor pair for £100. Ideally, I would find someone who has just had all the work done but then realised that they don't have the space for them! I don't know if the 1543 is well regarded, but the 1541 can certainly sound very musical, in my limited experience. I've heard that the 1541A is a tad better, and that the 1549 is the the best of the lot (but very rare), but not had a chance to compare. I suspect that a lot of what people thought was wrong with the 1541 players, at the time, was down to the amps and speakers they were being used with. I'm not very good at 'audiophile' terminology, and I could never be accused of being refined. I just work on the basis that if I want to switch it off, it's bad... and if I want to keep on listening for hours on end, it's good. There are 1541 implementations that can achieve the latter. I dare say there are 1541 implementations that can achieve the former, too. |
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Post by lurch on Oct 17, 2022 10:57:45 GMT
Well I've rung Studio AV, just waiting on a call back 2moz to sort an audition against my Pimped BI.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 17, 2022 11:17:45 GMT
I'm very well, Oli. I hope you are, too. Along with Mumsnet and the Daily Mail below the line sections, AA has always been on my 'must read' list All the 57s I've been offered (around 10 pairs) have needed some sort of work - but the guys who would be able to do the work all want to sell full rebuilds. If I'm going to go down that route then I might as well find a non-working donor pair for £100. Ideally, I would find someone who has just had all the work done but then realised that they don't have the space for them! I don't know if the 1543 is well regarded, but the 1541 can certainly sound very musical, in my limited experience. I've heard that the 1541A is a tad better, and that the 1549 is the the best of the lot (but very rare), but not had a chance to compare. I suspect that a lot of what people thought was wrong with the 1541 players, at the time, was down to the amps and speakers they were being used with. I'm not very good at 'audiophile' terminology, and I could never be accused of being refined. I just work on the basis that if I want to switch it off, it's bad... and if I want to keep on listening for hours on end, it's good. There are 1541 implementations that can achieve the latter. I dare say there are 1541 implementations that can achieve the former, too. Glad to see we're on the list! lol. 57's ..... just one word of caution: Don't send them to OTA The Sony R1-DAS (that was recently for sale everywhere) has 2x 1541A DAC chips in them, a PROPER power supply, stunning casework and is described as "the best DAC of all time" by a lot of industry professionals and the like. It's only issue is that it can't do HiRes files. Strictly limiting music collections to 16/48. That DAC was for sale at £1400.... My point was that the LAB12 is (IMHO) expensive for the level of chip and the technology it uses for D/A conversion. You could literally by ANY modern day DAC and whack a tube buffer on the arse end and put Mullards in to "warm it up" a bit, if that's what people are after. However, i will entirely agree with you that the liklihood of Sh#t sounding digital is more frequently about the amplification and speakers used. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 17, 2022 11:18:18 GMT
Well I've rung Studio AV, just waiting on a call back 2moz to sort an audition against my Pimped BI. Keep us posted! We'll continue the debate while we wait lol |
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Post by lurch on Oct 17, 2022 16:49:21 GMT
Well I've rung Studio AV, just waiting on a call back 2moz to sort an audition against my Pimped BI. Keep us posted! We'll continue the debate while we wait lol Got my call back at 11am, unfortunately the guy who does the demonstrations is out today, so he gonna ring me tomorrow to sort a day to audition (actually met him at a BO last Saturday). During the conversation with the office/admin bod (to make a demo on a 'cheapish' used product attractive to them) I rather stupidly mentioned I would also be looking to upgrade my streamer soon, so he threw another toy into the mix. They had a dcs Network Bridge in Black they'd just taken in as a PX. Having had a read round (Yes misterc I know I need to use my ears instead of my eyes) the NWB comes across as a superb piece of kit sonically, has an Android control App, and could solve my problem of a 24/96 cap on spdif & toslink. The NWB can downsample 24/192 and higher, so it can be used with legacy DACs like my BI. With this in mind I will take the BI & Mutec to the audition to see what sort of performance I get with the NWB. If all is good (and used NWB cost is right) then I can maybe forget about a DAC change and replace the Pimped Node with the NWB instead. |
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Post by lurch on Oct 17, 2022 17:58:45 GMT
Following a conversation I've just had with a friend I guess another cheaper option for downsampling, if I decide not to splash a lot of cash is Roon/JRiver.
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Post by misterc on Oct 17, 2022 19:56:39 GMT
I do quite fancy one Tony. Oli, you are aware of my dislike for most Chifi, however thus is an exception. I had one of these on long term test and measurement break down for a a review site Pleasantly surprised its the anti thesis ofvtge X26 pro,min that it has real quality texture, a natural flow with decent timbre of the instruments Yes it can be perceptually a wee bit slow, not like the Msy though but you have a Mutec so that covered, a great amount to like inho. Have now upgraded two of these units to diffrerent stages both gave quality results. I could see you with a T 2 IMHOso much more about it than a May kte3 but its quirky sound wise.Marmite even but fun |
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Post by misterc on Oct 17, 2022 20:01:58 GMT
Following a conversation I've just had with a friend I guess another cheaper option for downsampling, if I decide not to splash a lot of cash is Roon/JRiver. Always options John Matt (studio a/v) really nice chap always helpful If you do decide to go with the dcs nwsb, you can then use the mutec in two ways, buy utilising twin word clock outputs back into the nwsb one for the integers of red book the other for the 48khz multiples It will change automatically as the sample rate changes that way you get double bubble Tony |
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