Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 3, 2022 9:53:39 GMT
Hello folks,I WANT TO BUILD BETTER SPEAKERS FOR OTHERS:
Some of you will have seen my build threads for a BB3 Phono stage (case only - audioaddictsforum.com/thread/2408/bb3-build-building-chassis), Subwoofer ( audioaddictsforum.com/thread/2428/all-bass-subwoofer-build) and Speakers ( audioaddictsforum.com/thread/2466/floorstander-build-striving-high-end). From this you may have gleaned that I love building things. I, like many of you, have a passion for music, HiFi and making stuff! Many of us love DIY and the great rewards it can bring - not just the joy of the design and build, but the potential great performance at a reasonable price. I first got into DIY speakers about 20 years ago with a Wilmslow Audio build - this really opened my eyes to DIY, as a speaker with a build cost of £600 (at the time) utterly destroyed speakers costing many times more… Some years on, I recently built the Ekta MkIIs ( audioaddictsforum.com/thread/2466/floorstander-build-striving-high-end). They are a Troels Gravsen design with a significantly revamped cabinet design. The cabinet meets the key requirements set out by Troels, but aims to look very beautiful (IMHO) and be acoustically very well designed and built. DIY is a risk as well - there is a strong onus on the DIY builder to build well - the cabinet must be solid and not introduce too many spurious resonances. There is also a reliance on the design (driver choice and crossover) being good. Troels Gravesen is very renowned in the DIY speaker world and considered one of the best - yes, some people will disagree, but people disagree on every speaker brand! How good are my speakers? In all honesty, I have never AB testing them. They weigh 50kg and are not easy to move to a ‘bake off’ or a dealer for comparison. However, I have heard plenty of speakers at shows and in dealer showrooms (often with far superior electronics) and I’m pretty sure they compete well at a few times their build cost. I’ve reached a stage where I want to produce more speakers and, more particularly, I want to make more lovely cabinets. I think speakers can be made to a cost that will give others high performance at a relatively low cost! I sound a bit like some crap used car salesman, so please bear with me… I am not expecting anyone to take any big risks, although many of you have already put your faith into great DIY builds and realised the significant performance gains at a relatively low cost. I will first produce some demo speakers (build thread starting soon) and you can hear for yourself how good they are. If you don’t like them, you’ve lost nothing… If you love them, we can talk about building you a speaker. CAN YOU BUILD YOUR OWN DIY SPEAKERS?
Of course! If you have the time, equipment and skills I would thoroughly recommend it. I'm happy to offer advice where possible. HOWEVER, many people may not have the time and/or skills and/or equipment… I plan to make extremely good speakers at a very competitive cost (when compared to a retail speaker of similar sound quality and build). There is less risk for you as you should (where practical) be able to listen before you commit to anything - that is more difficult with self DIY. WHAT WILL THE FIRST SPEAKERS BE:
The initial plan is to build a small standmount. This won’t be for everyone, but I’ve got to start somewhere and the first demo speaker needs to be easy to move around and easily postable. It’ll be about 320mm (h) x 210mm (w) x 350mm (d) so pretty compact. Don’t fear… it will have decent bass that will surprise many people, and a slim floorstander based on the same great drivers will follow - this will build on the standmount's attributes with a noticeable increase in bass weight and depth (not that the standmount will be bad!). The floorstander will be about 1m high and 210mm wide, 350-400mm deep. I NEED YOUR HELP:
Before I finalise the details of the standmounts and floorstanders I’d like your views on a few things… I realise we are all different and what one person loves another may hate - I’m not planning to design the ideal speakers, they don’t exist for us all. I plan to design something that does the following: - A great speaker for a very competitive price.
- Very good drivers, much better than any retail speakers at a similar price point.
- High quality crossover components - again far in excess of any speaker at a similar price point.
- Very well made when compared at it's price point and well above.
- Beautiful, elegant and customisable within reason.
I'd be grateful if you can let me know the following:
- What finishes would interest you? Solid timber, birch ply, painted (matt or high gloss), veneered, or a mixture?
- Would you like the opportunity to upgrade a speaker over time? Better tweeter, better crossover caps? Everything is built to a price point, would it be useful/desirable to upgrade in a more cost effective way i.e. without completely replacing a speaker?
- Bespoke options - would people be interested in bespoke, one-off designs? Bear in mind that these could attract a significant cost premium.
- Anything else you think could be helpful?
PRICE POINTS:I've done some initial costing work, but don't have prices yet. This will become clearer in a month or two. All I can say is that they will represent great value for money. THANK YOU:
Thanks for your time folks, more details to follow soon. Please be gentle with me - I will take feedback/advice/constructive criticism on board, but please bear in mind that the speakers can't be everything to everyone. I'll design what I think is a great speaker. I will be taking input and ideas from various sources. They won't be for everyone, but I am confident some people will be rather taken with the results… Jason
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 3, 2022 11:08:55 GMT
Upgrades are always welcome, but I do often wonder "if there are upgrades, why not build it with them in the first place?"
I personally prefer to buy something that's maxed out. That's not usually the case though as many manufacturers just put the most readily available parts in things.
Go big. That's my opinion.
Greta photo BTW
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Post by stevew on Aug 3, 2022 11:22:25 GMT
Hey Jason
As you know, you had me at ‘standmount’. Lol.
Looking at the photos of your floorstanders I do wonder if within the design constraints of the standmounts, could they have a similarly curved side?
So basically a ‘cut down’ version of the floorstanders you’ve built?
In terms of standards of components I’d suggest that my preference would be for a price option at the order stage.
Great work and well done.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 3, 2022 11:27:00 GMT
Upgrades are always welcome, but I do often wonder "if there are upgrades, why not build it with them in the first place?" I personally prefer to buy something that's maxed out. That's not usually the case though as many manufacturers just put the most readily available parts in things. Go big. That's my opinion. Greta photo BTW Cheers for the feedback Oli. I see you point, but equally how many people can afford to to go Max straightaway? We're all too impatient, so want the next step up ASAP. I think we always have a budget and a few years later we often have more available for upgrades. I'm thinking of giving people the option to upgrade without changing the whole speaker. More environmentally friendly and more cost effective. I could go all out: - Absolute top notch drivers (the drivers I'm using are in speakers costing well over £10,000 anyway, so no slouches) - Spend a few £1000 on the crossover components. Capacitors can cost £500+ each - eek! - Build a highly complex and incredible cabinet. Then we'd have a small standmount speaker costing £15-20k... How many people have £15-20k to drop on a bespoke boutique speaker? Sadly I don't have the funds to build a demo speaker like that up front. Perhaps I'm setting the level too low, and should build a very high end competitor straightaway? BTW, my plan is still for an extremely good speaker - many would consider the sound quality high end for sure. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 3, 2022 11:51:06 GMT
Hey Jason As you know, you had me at ‘standmount’. Lol. Looking at the photos of your floorstanders I do wonder if within the design constraints of the standmounts, could they have a similarly curved side? So basically a ‘cut down’ version of the floorstanders you’ve built? In terms of standards of components I’d suggest that my preference would be for a price option at the order stage. Great work and well done. Hi Steve, Thanks so much for the feedback. Yes, I can build bespoke cabinets within the design constraints. Coincidently, I am already working on an optional cabinet design similar to my Ekta floorstanders! I suggest you listen to the demo pair and if you like them we can discuss bespoke/upgraded cabinet options. There would be uplift in price for a more complex cabinet design, however, I am trying to keep the ethos of my floorstander's cabinet whilst increasing build efficiency to optimise value for money. There will certainly be component options at the order stage. Cheers, Jason |
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Post by brian2957 on Aug 3, 2022 12:11:53 GMT
What a great offer Jason. I love your enthusiasm and, of course, the quality of your work. Finishes for me would have to be solid timber, birch ply, or a mixture of both. There are some very nice veneers available too. Yes, upgradeability built in is a great idea as not everyone can afford 'maxed out' but maybe could afford upgrades later on to already loved speakers. Also a biwireable option could be offered. TBH I'm not interested in bespoke speakers, too expensive probably. YMMV of course. Good idea to offer standmounts as an option as that is what I would be interested in. Also front grills/no front grills option, although some speakers sound better with grills on. What about offering matching stands too. I believe that it's important to build a reputation by building good sounding reasonably priced components before offering bespoke/expensive options. Just my opinion of course. The sizes you're suggesting look pretty good to me and should be easily transportable. Last but not least...good luck with your new venture, I hope it's a great success  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 3, 2022 12:26:53 GMT
By maxed out, I'm not talking about sticking Audyn Copper max on the tweeter, I'm talking about using the right components from the off.
Speakers usually have some metalized Polypropylene caps in there, some ceramic resistors etc, I'm just saying max it out by using Film and Foil polypropylene caps, Wirewound resistors, PC-TRIPLE C wiring etc. 9/10 these items cost way less than the marked up, boutique audiophile sh#te.
The best part for the job. Not the most expensive.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 3, 2022 12:31:42 GMT
What a great offer Jason. I love your enthusiasm and, of course, the quality of your work. Finishes for me would have to be solid timber, birch ply, or a mixture of both. There are some very nice veneers available too. Yes, upgradeability built in is a great idea as not everyone can afford 'maxed out' but maybe could afford upgrades later on to already loved speakers. Also a biwireable option could be offered. TBH I'm not interested in bespoke speakers, too expensive probably. YMMV of course. Good idea to offer standmounts as an option as that is what I would be interested in. Also front grills/no front grills option, although some speakers sound better with grills on. What about offering matching stands too. I believe that it's important to build a reputation by building good sounding reasonably priced components before offering bespoke/expensive options. Just my opinion of course. The sizes you're suggesting look pretty good to me and should be easily transportable. Last but not least...good luck with your new venture, I hope it's a great success Thanks for your kind words and feedback, much appreciated. I'm developing a design which allows the customer to choose different finishes for the main cabinet body (front, top, rear and base) and then a different choice in cheek finish. The cheeks will be removeable should people want a mini revamp. Solid work can have stability issues, so I think it may be better as a cheek material. Points noted re: grilles, bi-wire and stands - thank you. These will be developed and will be options at the ordering stage. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 3, 2022 12:36:01 GMT
By maxed out, I'm not talking about sticking Audyn Copper max on the tweeter, I'm talking about using the right components from the off. Speakers usually have some metalized Polypropylene caps in there, some ceramic resistors etc, I'm just saying max it out by using Film and Foil polypropylene caps, Wirewound resistors, PC-TRIPLE C wiring etc. 9/10 these items cost way less than the marked up, boutique audiophile sh#te. The best part for the job. Not the most expensive. Cheers Oli. I'll certainly try to achieve the best performance for the money. There will be lots of testing to find the best VFM and highest performance components. Happy to fit any components people would prefer too (within reason - some caps are so massive they wouldn't fit! LOL) |
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Post by stevew on Aug 3, 2022 15:37:50 GMT
Hi Jason, just one thing (that might not even be an issue with your speakers). It’s that of weight distribution. Now I have my stands on Townsend bars. As my ancient speakers are so front heavy, I have to set them really far back on the stand to get the bars to balance. Fortunately (well, possibly not in my room) but the rear of the speaker has a passive bass unit which gives some weight to the rear and stops the things becoming too front heavy… but it would be nice if the speakers could be centred on the stands. A solution for me might possibly to add more weight to the stands rear pillar. Something I’ve not got round to.. but May yet consider it.  |
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Post by antonio on Aug 3, 2022 16:01:04 GMT
Upgrades are always welcome, but I do often wonder "if there are upgrades, why not build it with them in the first place?" I personally prefer to buy something that's maxed out. That's not usually the case though as many manufacturers just put the most readily available parts in things. Go big. That's my opinion. Greta photo BTW I would agree with Oli, upgrades are always welcome, so I'll suggest why not give the option of the more affordable speaker and the upgraded version, I believe Definitive Audio did this with their speakers. I think it's a fab idea for you to build speakers, you obviously have the know how, and your threads have come across as it is something you enjoy doing. If I had known about this project 20yrs ago I'd have been snapping your hand off for a pair, but things have changed for me, you will know if you read my Antonio's Back Home thread. I'll just wish you luck with this project Jason |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 3, 2022 16:28:28 GMT
Hi Jason, just one thing (that might not even be an issue with your speakers). It’s that of weight distribution. Now I have my stands on Townsend bars. As my ancient speakers are so front heavy, I have to set them really far back on the stand to get the bars to balance. Fortunately (well, possibly not in my room) but the rear of the speaker has a passive bass unit which gives some weight to the rear and stops the things becoming too front heavy… but it would be nice if the speakers could be centred on the stands. A solution for me might possibly to add more weight to the stands rear pillar. Something I’ve not got round to.. but May yet consider it. Hi Steve, That is a very good point where sprung isolation is concerned. The speakers will have the crossover components in a compartment at the rear of the speaker. The total crossover should have a similar weight to the drivers. In any case, it would be very easy for me to balance your speakers - more damping material (similar to bitumen panels) could added internally where needed. How deep are your speakers front to back? Jason |
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Post by macca on Aug 3, 2022 17:54:33 GMT
are you doing this mostly for the fun or looking to actually make a business of it?
If the later then I would start with the statement speaker. Much easier to get a good reputation and establish your brand. Once you've done that you can offer cheaper speakers that have 'trickled down' from the statement.
To go the opposite route and start with the budget product it makes it much harder to break into the high end later, no matter how well the budget model is received.
In fact even if you are just doing it for fun I'd still start that way if I were you.
The statement can still be a standmount ofc.
One option would be to do a bespoke design for someone and then see if it is marketable to a wider audience.
Finishes are tricky since there is such a huge difference in taste. I hate that zebarano finish but others think it's the best thing ever. I'd be inclined to go Henry Ford on finish/colour. Maybe offer custom finishes on a one-off think of a number then double it charge. I've noticed most people seem okay with walnut, if that helps.
I am sort of in the market for some serious speakers, or will be in a few months time, so maybe we could have a chat at some point?
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Post by stevew on Aug 3, 2022 17:54:39 GMT
320 mm Jason.
So a bit shorter than your new design.
However.. the bitumen damping pad idea sounds an ideal solution to any imbalance. Bit like BMW putting the battery in the boot to keep the thing evenly balanced so I’m told.
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Post by gninnam on Aug 3, 2022 19:03:26 GMT
Love the work you have done so far so I am sure that your new venture will be a great success. Agree with Macca and aim high initially ( but still doesn't have to be silly money) with your first product - you could then offer a cheaper version with lower spec component's - should still sound good though! Not looking for a new speaker myself (unlike Oli I tend to keep components for many years  ) but will be interesting to see how this goes. What do you use to model the volume required and all the other variables to get a good sound from the cabinets? |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 3, 2022 20:09:42 GMT
320 mm Jason. So a bit shorter than your new design. However.. the bitumen damping pad idea sounds an ideal solution to any imbalance. Bit like BMW putting the battery in the boot to keep the thing evenly balanced so I’m told. Is that 320mm right to the front of the sculpted baffle? |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 3, 2022 20:20:45 GMT
are you doing this mostly for the fun or looking to actually make a business of it? If the later then I would start with the statement speaker. Much easier to get a good reputation and establish your brand. Once you've done that you can offer cheaper speakers that have 'trickled down' from the statement. To go the opposite route and start with the budget product it makes it much harder to break into the high end later, no matter how well the budget model is received. In fact even if you are just doing it for fun I'd still start that way if I were you. The statement can still be a standmount ofc. One option would be to do a bespoke design for someone and then see if it is marketable to a wider audience. Finishes are tricky since there is such a huge difference in taste. I hate that zebarano finish but others think it's the best thing ever. I'd be inclined to go Henry Ford on finish/colour. Maybe offer custom finishes on a one-off think of a number then double it charge. I've noticed most people seem okay with walnut, if that helps. I am sort of in the market for some serious speakers, or will be in a few months time, so maybe we could have a chat at some point? Thanks for all the feedback and comments - really useful. I think I need to get more of an understanding of what is a 'high end' price bracket for small (approx. A4 front baffle) standmount speaker... And also, what is a budget price bracket? I think high end can be quite different to different people. For some high end is a couple of £100k, for others £5k. I'll post more on the design concept soon, it will be very customisable without too much extra effort for me. Obviously, certain finishes will cost more. Drop me a PM if you'd like to discuss further. My Floorstander idea could work for you. Although we can explore many options and price points... You can always hear my speakers if you're near the Peak District... Edit: sorry I forgot to answer your fisrt question macca... A bit of both really. I have a background in Aerospace Engineering and Garden design, so a bit of a mix. I've been into HiFi and especially speakers for over 30 years. I feel that now is the time to create some amazing speakers for others to enjoy. I've only recently got a decent workshop space. It would be great for it to evolve into a decent business, yes. However, I love the bespoke and handbuilt side of it. I'd like it to grow, but not too big... I don't want to just manage a business whilst a factory makes my speakers. I love building stuff and wouldn't want to stop doing that. I'll be slightly guided by what people think of the first speakers too. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 3, 2022 20:34:10 GMT
Love the work you have done so far so I am sure that your new venture will be a great success. Agree with Macca and aim high initially ( but still doesn't have to be silly money) with your first product - you could then offer a cheaper version with lower spec component's - should still sound good though! Not looking for a new speaker myself (unlike Oli I tend to keep components for many years ) but will be interesting to see how this goes. What do you use to model the volume required and all the other variables to get a good sound from the cabinets? Thank so much for your comments and kind words. All 'off the shelf' drivers have published Thiele/Small parameters. I can use these to calculate optimum volume. Minimising cabinet resonance is more a case of experimenting and measuring and trying different options. There is a wealth of information on best practices and what is definitely preferable and beneficial... For example, high rigidity, well damped, minimising internal standing wave resonances etc. |
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Post by stevew on Aug 3, 2022 20:44:45 GMT
320 mm Jason. So a bit shorter than your new design. However.. the bitumen damping pad idea sounds an ideal solution to any imbalance. Bit like BMW putting the battery in the boot to keep the thing evenly balanced so I’m told. Is that 320mm right to the front of the sculpted baffle? Yes... |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 3, 2022 21:51:46 GMT
are you doing this mostly for the fun or looking to actually make a business of it? If the later then I would start with the statement speaker. Much easier to get a good reputation and establish your brand. Once you've done that you can offer cheaper speakers that have 'trickled down' from the statement. To go the opposite route and start with the budget product it makes it much harder to break into the high end later, no matter how well the budget model is received. In fact even if you are just doing it for fun I'd still start that way if I were you. The statement can still be a standmount ofc. One option would be to do a bespoke design for someone and then see if it is marketable to a wider audience. Finishes are tricky since there is such a huge difference in taste. I hate that zebarano finish but others think it's the best thing ever. I'd be inclined to go Henry Ford on finish/colour. Maybe offer custom finishes on a one-off think of a number then double it charge. I've noticed most people seem okay with walnut, if that helps. I am sort of in the market for some serious speakers, or will be in a few months time, so maybe we could have a chat at some point? I've said this. You need only have to look at Q Acoustics for an exact model of why starting out in the budget realm is an uphill battle. The Concept 500 are top class, but folk just aren't interested in them due to the price and the brand name. Trust me on this, if you start at budget level, you'll struggle to get out of it. Make the statement speakers first, and then you can offer a lighter version for the masses. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 5, 2022 12:29:07 GMT
are you doing this mostly for the fun or looking to actually make a business of it? If the later then I would start with the statement speaker. Much easier to get a good reputation and establish your brand. Once you've done that you can offer cheaper speakers that have 'trickled down' from the statement. To go the opposite route and start with the budget product it makes it much harder to break into the high end later, no matter how well the budget model is received. In fact even if you are just doing it for fun I'd still start that way if I were you. The statement can still be a standmount ofc. One option would be to do a bespoke design for someone and then see if it is marketable to a wider audience. Finishes are tricky since there is such a huge difference in taste. I hate that zebarano finish but others think it's the best thing ever. I'd be inclined to go Henry Ford on finish/colour. Maybe offer custom finishes on a one-off think of a number then double it charge. I've noticed most people seem okay with walnut, if that helps. I am sort of in the market for some serious speakers, or will be in a few months time, so maybe we could have a chat at some point? I've said this. You need only have to look at Q Acoustics for an exact model of why starting out in the budget realm is an uphill battle. The Concept 500 are top class, but folk just aren't interested in them due to the price and the brand name. Trust me on this, if you start at budget level, you'll struggle to get out of it. Make the statement speakers first, and then you can offer a lighter version for the masses. Thanks for the advise Oli and macca. It definitely makes sense, so I'll look more at options. I already have 3 people interested in a relatively high end standmount. I'm confident it will compete with similar sized speakers costing £3-6K, and will be priced very competitively. I am reluctant to aim this standmount at the extremely high end as it will be too expensive for what my potential customers would like (I am aware of some people's budgets). That being said, I am planning a new speaker for myself... This will be a large (ish) 3 way floorstander. This speaker will be designed to produce phenomenal clarity, dynamics and realism. I'm confident it will hold it's own in the £20-30k price bracket and maybe more, but again be very competitively priced. I'm aiming for a very high end look - it will be reasonably large, but designed to not dominate a space. Given your comments, this speaker is likely to become the flagship. There is also likely to be a narrow floorstander - this will be aimed at the £8-12k price bracket and again priced extremely competitively. |
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Post by ijrussell on Aug 5, 2022 19:56:28 GMT
I'd be happy to bring my Q Acoustics Concept 300 speakers over to compare against your speakers when you think that they're ready for road testing.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 5, 2022 20:18:38 GMT
I'd be happy to bring my Q Acoustics Concept 300 speakers over to compare against your speakers when you think that they're ready for road testing. Thank you very much. That's very kind of you. They're certainly a very similar size and I'm aiming for standmounts that will compete at that level. It'll be a very interesting comparison... |
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Post by stevew on Aug 5, 2022 20:22:53 GMT
I'd be happy to bring my Q Acoustics Concept 300 speakers over to compare against your speakers when you think that they're ready for road testing. Oh yes please. Perfect comparison. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 5, 2022 20:40:15 GMT
I'd be happy to bring my Q Acoustics Concept 300 speakers over to compare against your speakers when you think that they're ready for road testing. Oh yes please. Perfect comparison. I'd better get started... I've got the timber, crossover components and drivers... The design is pretty much done... Just some building to do. It'll be interesting to see if they compare favourably to the q300s or are at least similar.... No pressure 🙄😯 |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 19, 2022 11:29:19 GMT
I'd be happy to bring my Q Acoustics Concept 300 speakers over to compare against your speakers when you think that they're ready for road testing. The concept 300s certainly have a fantastic reputation and incredible reviews - it'll be quite a head to head. I must admit to being slightly nervous! Perhaps sometime in September? They'll be run in and ready for their first speaker meet! I'm in the Peak District if that works for a venue? Jason |
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Post by ijrussell on Aug 19, 2022 13:22:36 GMT
I'd be happy to bring my Q Acoustics Concept 300 speakers over to compare against your speakers when you think that they're ready for road testing. The concept 300s certainly have a fantastic reputation and incredible reviews - it'll be quite a head to head. I must admit to being slightly nervous! Perhaps sometime in September? They'll be run in and ready for their first speaker meet! I'm in the Peak District if that works for a venue? Jason I'm just north of Coventry, so it will be a couple of hours travel each way depending on where you are as the Peak District covers quite a large area. I have a bakeoff on the 10th Sept and a wedding on the 17th. Other than that, I'm available most Thursdays to Sundays to travel over. |
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Post by mikeyb on Aug 19, 2022 14:41:36 GMT
It's what Garrard did with their turntables, made them more expensive and people associated the price with quality.
If it's cheap it must be crap right?
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Post by sq225917 on Aug 19, 2022 18:32:39 GMT
Jason, bring your speakers over to sheffield if you fancy a day out. I'd love to hear them. Might help give you some perspective by hearing them in another system.
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Post by firebottle on Aug 19, 2022 19:09:08 GMT
Oh yes please. Perfect comparison. I'd better get started... I've got the timber, crossover components and drivers... The design is pretty much done... Just some building to do. It'll be interesting to see if they compare favourably to the q300s or are at least similar.... No pressure 🙄😯 I'm as keen to help compare as all on here. I'm very flexible with times and dates. I have Thiel CS 2.2 with recapped Xovers and OCC internal wiring if you are interested. Can come to you no problem. |
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) but will be interesting to see how this goes.
