Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 18, 2022 7:12:54 GMT
Last person to describe Tannoys to me said "absolutely no LF whatsoever" Sounds like an amplifier issue? Or possibly a hearing issue? Plenty of LF on my Tannoys. I doubt that was the issue. The describee is the owner of a good pair of ear. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 18, 2022 7:16:57 GMT
Where did you find the graphs Oli? I'd be interested to look. I think we all have a 'flavour' we prefer and speakers (with additional room interactions) normally impart the most colour or flavour to the sound reproduction. I believe we are all (especially after years of critical listening) used to a certain sound profile. It's very unlikely or rare that anyone is hearing a flat/neutral response in their system within their room. I believe that speaker/room interactions are inevitable and virtually impossible to avoid. The 20-300Hz is particularly influenced by room interactions. Room modes and speaker/boundary effects are difficult to avoid. A completely damped and treated room providing an almost flat response (with an almost perfectly 'flat' response system) would generally sound very strange and (I believe) most people would find it unlistenable and/or alien. I recently heard two recordings of a cello: one outside and one inside a church. The one outside sounded very strange and lifeless - it was particularly alien to listen to. The recording in the church sounded 'familiar' and the reverberation and reinforcement of certain frequencies sounded more 'right' and normal. We're all used to music and our systems in a room. I believe it is extremely unlikely anyone is listening to a flat response system/room. I think speakers especially are a very personal thing. There is plenty of evidence to show that we all have completely different 'frequency response' perception profiles. I think these differences between us all is what makes music/hifi such a great hobby/past-time/obsession! We simply don't hear the same thing and those differences of perception and experience is what makes hifi interesting and leads to many good debates. I'd love to hear some of these Tannoys one day. Many people love them. I'd guess the imaging and more 'realistic' bass weight and body would be very addictive. 😀 I'd imagine there would be some frequency responses variations due to the largish (parallel sided) cabinets, however, these can add a flavour that many like. |
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Post by jandl100 on Jul 18, 2022 9:05:00 GMT
Paul RFC has shown afaiac that it's the driver and the cab and the crossover that goes to make the Tannoy Sound (love it or loath it). It's one big cock up to my ears, but others really enjoy it, so fair do's. Nothing is perfect, so just choose your own poison. But the larger drivers sure as hell can move a lot of air in an impressively controlled way, and that's important for a lot of music. Last person to describe Tannoys to me said "absolutely no LF whatsoever" Sounds like an amplifier issue? Definitely not the fault of big Tannoys. They can flex the walls, rattle the windows and lift the roof off when appropriately driven. I heard Marco's at Scalford. Grainy but huge bass depth and power imo. They do need a suitable amp to strut their stuff. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 18, 2022 9:38:19 GMT
Last person to describe Tannoys to me said "absolutely no LF whatsoever" Sounds like an amplifier issue? Definitely not the fault of big Tannoys. They can flex the walls, rattle the windows and lift the roof off when appropriately driven. I heard Marco's at Scalford. Grainy but huge bass depth and power imo. They do need a suitable amp to strut their stuff. Ah, thats good news then. I had suspicions about the "showpiece" amp that was used with them, but as i wasnt there i couldn't comment. |
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Post by hifinutt on Jul 18, 2022 11:01:28 GMT
Last person to describe Tannoys to me said "absolutely no LF whatsoever" Sounds like an amplifier issue? Or possibly a hearing issue? Plenty of LF on my Tannoys. my standmount tannoys have several levels of isolation and stands and i can still feel bass in my chair !!! My friend is a organ meistro and he took to them with organ music |
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Post by rexton on Jul 18, 2022 12:47:29 GMT
100w is probably bass line (sorry for that) for driving the big tannoys 3watt SET won’t cut it. I’ve 100watts and could probably do with more
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 18, 2022 13:51:02 GMT
Or possibly a hearing issue? Plenty of LF on my Tannoys. my standmount tannoys have several levels of isolation and stands and i can still feel bass in my chair !!! My friend is a organ meistro and he took to them with organ music I think I need a listen to a pair. To be honest, I've not known one pair of speakers to cause such a division of opinion |
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Post by hifinutt on Jul 18, 2022 16:03:22 GMT
yes does seem so . PFM love them and the wam doesn`t really !!!
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Post by macca on Jul 18, 2022 20:08:00 GMT
research actually shows that around eighty percent of us will like speakers that are designed to have an (anechoic) flat response - since in a room such a speaker will have a lift in the bass and attenuation in the top end, and so will sound natural and balanced.
Of course 1 in 5 are outliers and will prefer highly coloured speakers like Audionote and that. But the thing about everyone liking a different sound is actually a myth.
Noticed that before going around shows with people, there's rarely any disagreement about the merits or not of each system. Does happen but not often.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jul 18, 2022 21:00:16 GMT
research actually shows that around eighty percent of us will like speakers that are designed to have an (anechoic) flat response - since in a room such a speaker will have a lift in the bass and attenuation in the top end, and so will sound natural and balanced. Of course 1 in 5 are outliers and will prefer highly coloured speakers like Audionote and that. But the thing about everyone liking a different sound is actually a myth. Noticed that before going around shows with people, there's rarely any disagreement about the merits or not of each system. Does happen but not often. Well, going round Cranage we did broadly agree about the same speakers. Though there will almost certainly be other influencing factors, like partnering equipment, acoustics, even music choices. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jul 18, 2022 21:05:15 GMT
research actually shows that around eighty percent of us will like speakers that are designed to have an (anechoic) flat response - since in a room such a speaker will have a lift in the bass and attenuation in the top end, and so will sound natural and balanced. Of course 1 in 5 are outliers and will prefer highly coloured speakers like Audionote and that. But the thing about everyone liking a different sound is actually a myth. Noticed that before going around shows with people, there's rarely any disagreement about the merits or not of each system. Does happen but not often. That's intersting and contrary to some studies I've seen. Many studies showed it was normal for us all to lose high frequency sensitivity with age, however, the amount of loss varies person to person. This explains why some may find treble fwd and others not. Other research shows that we all have a heightened sensitivity in the midrange (around the human voice frequencies). However, the degree of this sensitivity varies from person to person also. Some will find midrange more fwd than others on the same system. I realise the internet is full of studies and research, and much of it will be conflicting. I am not an acoustic engineer, so would certainly be interested to have an experts take on it. As a little aside, my brother (also into hifi) recently took his speakers to a guy to measure them and redesign the crossover. They had a terrible crossover which had been badly designed by another company. In addition to measuring the drivers and their response in the cabinet, he measured my Brother's perception of different frequency response curves. He played music repeatedly with different curves... Some flat through the treble, some with treble lift and some with treble attenuation. He also played the music with different levels of midrange attenuation and forwardness. It turned out my bro preferred the sound with an attenuated treble and slightly recessed midrange. The speaker designer had measured quite a few people and did say people vary in their preferences. Probably quite a small sample but interesting nonetheless. It backed up what my brother (and I) thought of systems at the Northwest show. Many people (in forum/facebook reports) loved systems that we found bright and edgy. Maybe we just have weird hearing genes! Maybe we're the 1 in 5! |
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Post by jandl100 on Jul 18, 2022 21:10:40 GMT
research actually shows that around eighty percent of us will like speakers that are designed to have an (anechoic) flat response - since in a room such a speaker will have a lift in the bass and attenuation in the top end, and so will sound natural and balanced. Of course 1 in 5 are outliers and will prefer highly coloured speakers like Audionote and that. But the thing about everyone liking a different sound is actually a myth. Noticed that before going around shows with people, there's rarely any disagreement about the merits or not of each system. Does happen but not often. There are some broad, sweeping statements there, seeming to imply broad, sweeping preferences for the overall tonal presentation of a speaker. Which is probably fair enough. But it doesn't seem to say anything useful about the more detailed and deep differences in tonal, resolution and dynamic presentations between each and every speaker that I have heard. Or maybe that was all down to small differences in volume. Of course it was.  |
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Post by karma67 on Jul 19, 2022 5:14:25 GMT
research actually shows that around eighty percent of us will like speakers that are designed to have an (anechoic) flat response - since in a room such a speaker will have a lift in the bass and attenuation in the top end, and so will sound natural and balanced. Of course 1 in 5 are outliers and will prefer highly coloured speakers like Audionote and that. But the thing about everyone liking a different sound is actually a myth. Noticed that before going around shows with people, there's rarely any disagreement about the merits or not of each system. Does happen but not often. That's intersting and contrary to some studies I've seen. Many studies showed it was normal for us all to lose high frequency sensitivity with age, however, the amount of loss varies person to person. This explains why some may find treble fwd and others not. Other research shows that we all have a heightened sensitivity in the midrange (around the human voice frequencies). However, the degree of this sensitivity varies from person to person also. Some will find midrange more fwd than others on the same system. I realise the internet is full of studies and research, and much of it will be conflicting. I am not an acoustic engineer, so would certainly be interested to have an experts take on it. As a little aside, my brother (also into hifi) recently took his speakers to a guy to measure them and redesign the crossover. They had a terrible crossover which had been badly designed by another company. In addition to measuring the drivers and their response in the cabinet, he measured my Brother's perception of different frequency response curves. He played music repeatedly with different curves... Some flat through the treble, some with treble lift and some with treble attenuation. He also played the music with different levels of midrange attenuation and forwardness. It turned out my bro preferred the sound with an attenuated treble and slightly recessed midrange. The speaker designer had measured quite a few people and did say people vary in their preferences. Probably quite a small sample but interesting nonetheless. It backed up what my brother (and I) thought of systems at the Northwest show. Many people (in forum/facebook reports) loved systems that we found bright and edgy. Maybe we just have weird hearing genes! Maybe we're the 1 in 5! great post and very interesting. |
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Post by macca on Jul 19, 2022 6:23:42 GMT
research actually shows that around eighty percent of us will like speakers that are designed to have an (anechoic) flat response - since in a room such a speaker will have a lift in the bass and attenuation in the top end, and so will sound natural and balanced. Of course 1 in 5 are outliers and will prefer highly coloured speakers like Audionote and that. But the thing about everyone liking a different sound is actually a myth. Noticed that before going around shows with people, there's rarely any disagreement about the merits or not of each system. Does happen but not often. That's intersting and contrary to some studies I've seen. Many studies showed it was normal for us all to lose high frequency sensitivity with age, however, the amount of loss varies person to person. This explains why some may find treble fwd and others not. Other research shows that we all have a heightened sensitivity in the midrange (around the human voice frequencies). However, the degree of this sensitivity varies from person to person also. Some will find midrange more fwd than others on the same system. I realise the internet is full of studies and research, and much of it will be conflicting. I am not an acoustic engineer, so would certainly be interested to have an experts take on it. As a little aside, my brother (also into hifi) recently took his speakers to a guy to measure them and redesign the crossover. They had a terrible crossover which had been badly designed by another company. In addition to measuring the drivers and their response in the cabinet, he measured my Brother's perception of different frequency response curves. He played music repeatedly with different curves... Some flat through the treble, some with treble lift and some with treble attenuation. He also played the music with different levels of midrange attenuation and forwardness. It turned out my bro preferred the sound with an attenuated treble and slightly recessed midrange. The speaker designer had measured quite a few people and did say people vary in their preferences. Probably quite a small sample but interesting nonetheless. It backed up what my brother (and I) thought of systems at the Northwest show. Many people (in forum/facebook reports) loved systems that we found bright and edgy. Maybe we just have weird hearing genes! Maybe we're the 1 in 5! yes, everything you say is correct, but regardless of that there is a general trend in preference that can be identified. HF hearing loss doesn't tend to affect what speakers we prefer (most music is done by about 10Khz anyway) and our high sensitivity to midband frequencies means you are more likely to prefer a speaker that is flat - or as you say, slightly dished - across the midband, Also 1 in five outliers is a lot of outliers! but if you are in the business of selling speakers it makes sense to aim them at the 80 percent. |
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Post by macca on Jul 19, 2022 6:24:39 GMT
research actually shows that around eighty percent of us will like speakers that are designed to have an (anechoic) flat response - since in a room such a speaker will have a lift in the bass and attenuation in the top end, and so will sound natural and balanced. Of course 1 in 5 are outliers and will prefer highly coloured speakers like Audionote and that. But the thing about everyone liking a different sound is actually a myth. Noticed that before going around shows with people, there's rarely any disagreement about the merits or not of each system. Does happen but not often. There are some broad, sweeping statements there, seeming to imply broad, sweeping preferences for the overall tonal presentation of a speaker. Which is probably fair enough. But it doesn't seem to say anything useful about the more detailed and deep differences in tonal, resolution and dynamic presentations between each and every speaker that I have heard. Or maybe that was all down to small differences in volume. Of course it was. well they did the research by having people listen to speakers and asking them which they preferred, is there a better method? |
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Post by antonio on Jul 19, 2022 6:31:57 GMT
macca Were they blindfolded?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 19, 2022 6:38:11 GMT
macca Were they blindfolded? 🤣 I was waiting for that lol |
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jul 19, 2022 13:05:44 GMT
macca Were they blindfolded? You might be thinking of the old Linn "single speaker" demonstrations, where the listener was blindfolded, sleep-deprived, and denied food drink or a toilet break until the listener said he liked the speakers  Anyway, blindfolding the listener would give the ugly speakers an unfair advantage. A bit like Blind Date. |
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Post by macca on Jul 20, 2022 6:14:29 GMT
macca Were they blindfolded? they tested sighted and blind, some people's preference did change between blind and sighted. |
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Post by antonio on Jul 20, 2022 7:52:16 GMT
macca I was only pulling you're leg 
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jul 20, 2022 9:00:23 GMT
That's intersting and contrary to some studies I've seen. Many studies showed it was normal for us all to lose high frequency sensitivity with age, however, the amount of loss varies person to person. This explains why some may find treble fwd and others not. Other research shows that we all have a heightened sensitivity in the midrange (around the human voice frequencies). However, the degree of this sensitivity varies from person to person also. Some will find midrange more fwd than others on the same system. I realise the internet is full of studies and research, and much of it will be conflicting. I am not an acoustic engineer, so would certainly be interested to have an experts take on it. As a little aside, my brother (also into hifi) recently took his speakers to a guy to measure them and redesign the crossover. They had a terrible crossover which had been badly designed by another company. In addition to measuring the drivers and their response in the cabinet, he measured my Brother's perception of different frequency response curves. He played music repeatedly with different curves... Some flat through the treble, some with treble lift and some with treble attenuation. He also played the music with different levels of midrange attenuation and forwardness. It turned out my bro preferred the sound with an attenuated treble and slightly recessed midrange. The speaker designer had measured quite a few people and did say people vary in their preferences. Probably quite a small sample but interesting nonetheless. It backed up what my brother (and I) thought of systems at the Northwest show. Many people (in forum/facebook reports) loved systems that we found bright and edgy. Maybe we just have weird hearing genes! Maybe we're the 1 in 5! yes, everything you say is correct, but regardless of that there is a general trend in preference that can be identified. HF hearing loss doesn't tend to affect what speakers we prefer (most music is done by about 10Khz anyway) and our high sensitivity to midband frequencies means you are more likely to prefer a speaker that is flat - or as you say, slightly dished - across the midband, Also 1 in five outliers is a lot of outliers! but if you are in the business of selling speakers it makes sense to aim them at the 80 percent. have you got a link to this study? I'd be very interested to see it - it would be particularly interesting to know what the non-flat response speakers looked like? Did they attenuate/amplify certain bands by a few dB or did they introduce large notches or peaks (say 6-10db). I think most people would notice a 6-10db especially in the most sensitive vocal ranges. I completely agree that a speaker manufacturer must aim to get the frequency response as flat as possible - a speaker (or any hifi component) should appeal to as many people as possible. It is very important to have a flat response as a foundation on which to build. I know a little about high frequency hearing loss as my father suffers from it (to a high degree) and has a corrective hearing aid. HF hearing loss is generally from 2kHz upwards, and generally worst in the 2-8kHz range. Although we do lose a lot of sensitivity in the 10-20kHz region, this rarely affects everyday life (or music). Unfortunately 2-8kHz it is very much within the music reproduction bandwidth and does mean that some people perceive HF very differently to others. That being said, I still completely agree with you that a speaker's response should be flat. Some speakers have the ability to attenuate or boost the treble - generally from 2-3kHz upwards depending on crossover frequency. This is very useful to tweak a speaker's HF response to suit a room or the listener's preferences. I have it on my speakers and find +/-1dB makes a noticeable difference. It's a fascinating subject as there is so much complexity, and it's particularly interesting to those who love music and music reproduction. Speakers should definitely have a good flat frequency response as this is the foundation for their performance. However, you can have two speakers with almost identical frequency response curves (and similar sensitivity/impedance) that sound very different. I think Frequency Response is just one piece of the puzzle - many other factors can have a large effect on the perceived sound quality: dynamic response, distortion, off-axis response, driver displacement, driver integration, cabinet coloration etc. This brings us back to Tannoy speakers... The Tannoys (being discussed) generally have larger bass drivers and can (when properly implemented) reproduce a more realistic, visceral and live rendition of lower frequencies. You can't really cheat physics and I've not heard any small (say 5-8") diameter bass drivers that come close to 'real' bass. Yes, some smaller drivers do a reasonable job, but there is no substitute for displacement. This was highlighted to me at Cranage - the only speakers I heard that got close to a grand piano, kick drum or cello had at least 12" bass drivers. I did thoroughly enjoy some of the smaller speakers, but there are always compromises. It's simply not practical for most of us to have massive speakers, so a speaker manufacturer will strive to get the best sound possible from a smaller cabinet - it is always a balancing act between sensitivity, LF response and cabinet size... You can't have everything! |
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Post by macca on Jul 20, 2022 18:21:18 GMT
yes, everything you say is correct, but regardless of that there is a general trend in preference that can be identified. HF hearing loss doesn't tend to affect what speakers we prefer (most music is done by about 10Khz anyway) and our high sensitivity to midband frequencies means you are more likely to prefer a speaker that is flat - or as you say, slightly dished - across the midband, Also 1 in five outliers is a lot of outliers! but if you are in the business of selling speakers it makes sense to aim them at the 80 percent. have you got a link to this study? I'd be very interested to see it - it would be particularly interesting to know what the non-flat response speakers looked like? Did they attenuate/amplify certain bands by a few dB or did they introduce large notches or peaks (say 6-10db). I think most people would notice a 6-10db especially in the most sensitive vocal ranges. I completely agree that a speaker manufacturer must aim to get the frequency response as flat as possible - a speaker (or any hifi component) should appeal to as many people as possible. It is very important to have a flat response as a foundation on which to build. I know a little about high frequency hearing loss as my father suffers from it (to a high degree) and has a corrective hearing aid. HF hearing loss is generally from 2kHz upwards, and generally worst in the 2-8kHz range. Although we do lose a lot of sensitivity in the 10-20kHz region, this rarely affects everyday life (or music). Unfortunately 2-8kHz it is very much within the music reproduction bandwidth and does mean that some people perceive HF very differently to others. That being said, I still completely agree with you that a speaker's response should be flat. Some speakers have the ability to attenuate or boost the treble - generally from 2-3kHz upwards depending on crossover frequency. This is very useful to tweak a speaker's HF response to suit a room or the listener's preferences. I have it on my speakers and find +/-1dB makes a noticeable difference. It's a fascinating subject as there is so much complexity, and it's particularly interesting to those who love music and music reproduction. Speakers should definitely have a good flat frequency response as this is the foundation for their performance. However, you can have two speakers with almost identical frequency response curves (and similar sensitivity/impedance) that sound very different. I think Frequency Response is just one piece of the puzzle - many other factors can have a large effect on the perceived sound quality: dynamic response, distortion, off-axis response, driver displacement, driver integration, cabinet coloration etc. This brings us back to Tannoy speakers... The Tannoys (being discussed) generally have larger bass drivers and can (when properly implemented) reproduce a more realistic, visceral and live rendition of lower frequencies. You can't really cheat physics and I've not heard any small (say 5-8") diameter bass drivers that come close to 'real' bass. Yes, some smaller drivers do a reasonable job, but there is no substitute for displacement. This was highlighted to me at Cranage - the only speakers I heard that got close to a grand piano, kick drum or cello had at least 12" bass drivers. I did thoroughly enjoy some of the smaller speakers, but there are always compromises. It's simply not practical for most of us to have massive speakers, so a speaker manufacturer will strive to get the best sound possible from a smaller cabinet - it is always a balancing act between sensitivity, LF response and cabinet size... You can't have everything! To get the full details all in one place you'd need to get a copy of 'Sound Reproduction', which I'd highly recommend. Although here's a discussion with Dr Sean Olive who did a lot of the research, it goes into some detail: |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jul 20, 2022 18:53:59 GMT
Much appreciated macca. Is that 'Sound Reproduction' by Floyd Toole? |
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Post by macca on Jul 20, 2022 19:03:19 GMT
Yes that's the one.
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Post by hifinutt on Jul 21, 2022 8:32:04 GMT
research actually shows that around eighty percent of us will like speakers that are designed to have an (anechoic) flat response - since in a room such a speaker will have a lift in the bass and attenuation in the top end, and so will sound natural and balanced. Of course 1 in 5 are outliers and will prefer highly coloured speakers like Audionote and that. But the thing about everyone liking a different sound is actually a myth. Noticed that before going around shows with people, there's rarely any disagreement about the merits or not of each system. Does happen but not often. That's intersting and contrary to some studies I've seen. Many studies showed it was normal for us all to lose high frequency sensitivity with age, however, the amount of loss varies person to person. This explains why some may find treble fwd and others not. Other research shows that we all have a heightened sensitivity in the midrange (around the human voice frequencies). However, the degree of this sensitivity varies from person to person also. Some will find midrange more fwd than others on the same system. I realise the internet is full of studies and research, and much of it will be conflicting. I am not an acoustic engineer, so would certainly be interested to have an experts take on it. As a little aside, my brother (also into hifi) recently took his speakers to a guy to measure them and redesign the crossover. They had a terrible crossover which had been badly designed by another company. In addition to measuring the drivers and their response in the cabinet, he measured my Brother's perception of different frequency response curves. He played music repeatedly with different curves... Some flat through the treble, some with treble lift and some with treble attenuation. He also played the music with different levels of midrange attenuation and forwardness. It turned out my bro preferred the sound with an attenuated treble and slightly recessed midrange. The speaker designer had measured quite a few people and did say people vary in their preferences. Probably quite a small sample but interesting nonetheless. It backed up what my brother (and I) thought of systems at the Northwest show. Many people (in forum/facebook reports) loved systems that we found bright and edgy. Maybe we just have weird hearing genes! Maybe we're the 1 in 5! brilliantly put . I was in a garden recently and my son said whats that noise ? i couldnt hear it although i count myself as having good hearing . It was a high pitched cat repeller with sonic noise . i just couldnt hear it at all ! |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jul 21, 2022 10:21:05 GMT
That's intersting and contrary to some studies I've seen. Many studies showed it was normal for us all to lose high frequency sensitivity with age, however, the amount of loss varies person to person. This explains why some may find treble fwd and others not. Other research shows that we all have a heightened sensitivity in the midrange (around the human voice frequencies). However, the degree of this sensitivity varies from person to person also. Some will find midrange more fwd than others on the same system. I realise the internet is full of studies and research, and much of it will be conflicting. I am not an acoustic engineer, so would certainly be interested to have an experts take on it. As a little aside, my brother (also into hifi) recently took his speakers to a guy to measure them and redesign the crossover. They had a terrible crossover which had been badly designed by another company. In addition to measuring the drivers and their response in the cabinet, he measured my Brother's perception of different frequency response curves. He played music repeatedly with different curves... Some flat through the treble, some with treble lift and some with treble attenuation. He also played the music with different levels of midrange attenuation and forwardness. It turned out my bro preferred the sound with an attenuated treble and slightly recessed midrange. The speaker designer had measured quite a few people and did say people vary in their preferences. Probably quite a small sample but interesting nonetheless. It backed up what my brother (and I) thought of systems at the Northwest show. Many people (in forum/facebook reports) loved systems that we found bright and edgy. Maybe we just have weird hearing genes! Maybe we're the 1 in 5! brilliantly put . I was in a garden recently and my son said whats that noise ? i couldnt hear it although i count myself as having good hearing . It was a high pitched cat repeller with sonic noise . i just couldnt hear it at all ! Yes, that's pretty normal, and I can't hear them either (I'm 46). I had thought that HF hearing loss was mainly in the 10-20kHz region. However, it is mainly classed as the 2kHz and above. This was only a recent discovery when my father (in his 70s) was diagnosed with it. His sensitivity is seriously compromised above 2kHz and throughout the important vocal frequencies and most music covered by a tweeter. This becomes the case for many people as they age, and most of us don't recognise the gradual decline. Most people start to lose the ability to hear voices as well in our 60s and 70s. It does explain why my brother (early 30s) found some speakers painful to listen to at Cranage! Those rooms were invariably full of people at least 20-30years his senior (including the exibitor). When we asked them what they thought, they said 'perfectly balanced and neutral'! We asked them if they found the sound bright or harsh and they said 'no'. |
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optical
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Post by optical on Jul 21, 2022 10:39:50 GMT
brilliantly put . I was in a garden recently and my son said whats that noise ? i couldnt hear it although i count myself as having good hearing . It was a high pitched cat repeller with sonic noise . i just couldnt hear it at all ! Yes, that's pretty normal, and I can't hear them either (I'm 46). I had thought that HF hearing loss was mainly in the 10-20kHz region. However, it is mainly classed as the 2kHz and above. This was only a recent discovery when my father (in his 70s) was diagnosed with it. His sensitivity is seriously compromised above 2kHz and throughout the important vocal frequencies and most music covered by a tweeter. This becomes the case for many people as they age, and most of us don't recognise the gradual decline. Most people start to lose the ability to hear voices as well in our 60s and 70s. It does explain why my brother (early 30s) found some speakers painful to listen to at Cranage! Those rooms were invariably full of people at least 20-30years his senior (including the exibitor). When we asked them what they thought, they said 'perfectly balanced and neutral'! We asked them if they found the sound bright or harsh and they said 'no'. I get this all the time. A lot of systems I have found screechy/shrill/bright are probably sounding absolutely balanced and spot on to the majority. I also have to request that the various mouse repelling devices around the in-law's house are switched off when we go there. The Mrs can't hear them either but me and my young lad are staring at them in disbelief wondering 'how can this not bother you'  Well if they can't hear it, why would it! I think most people are completely unaware of any hearing loss, I know mine has taken a dive in the last 5 years or so (I'm 35) and I still 'think' I can hear fine up to 17.5khz (rudimentary test). |
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Post by Arke on Jul 21, 2022 12:36:15 GMT
Yes, that's pretty normal, and I can't hear them either (I'm 46). I had thought that HF hearing loss was mainly in the 10-20kHz region. However, it is mainly classed as the 2kHz and above. This was only a recent discovery when my father (in his 70s) was diagnosed with it. His sensitivity is seriously compromised above 2kHz and throughout the important vocal frequencies and most music covered by a tweeter. This becomes the case for many people as they age, and most of us don't recognise the gradual decline. Most people start to lose the ability to hear voices as well in our 60s and 70s. It does explain why my brother (early 30s) found some speakers painful to listen to at Cranage! Those rooms were invariably full of people at least 20-30years his senior (including the exibitor). When we asked them what they thought, they said 'perfectly balanced and neutral'! We asked them if they found the sound bright or harsh and they said 'no'. I get this all the time. A lot of systems I have found screechy/shrill/bright are probably sounding absolutely balanced and spot on to the majority. I also have to request that the various mouse repelling devices around the in-law's house are switched off when we go there. The Mrs can't hear them either but me and my young lad are staring at them in disbelief wondering 'how can this not bother you'Â Well if they can't hear it, why would it! I think most people are completely unaware of any hearing loss, I know mine has taken a dive in the last 5 years or so (I'm 35) and I still 'think' I can hear fine up to 17.5khz (rudimentary test). I know, I am amazed at how much our hearing degrades from the 2kHz area and above. I'm 46, so based on averages for my age it's still OK (ish) and reasonably flat up to 8khz, which is mainly what counts for music. These charts show the average drop off in frequency sensitivity with age:  This chart is taken from a study published in the Lancet. It was a sample of over 10000 Japanese people (hearing should be similar worldwide) - there are many similar studies with similar results. www.thelancet.com/journals/lanwpc/article/PIIS2666-6065%2821%2900040-7/fulltextIt actually shows that in our 50s, 60s and beyond the change in sensitivity from the 125Hz to 10kHz range is actually pretty dramatic. The drop off around 8 kHz can be 20-30dB or more compared to younger adults. That is pretty massive. Obviously this change is gradual and our brain will adjust and compensate too. So I imagine a violin or a cymbal would still seem to sound the same as one ages. However, with 30db and even 40db drops in sensitivity possible around 8kHz (at age 70+) we may not even hear certain low level sounds in music or life. I still strongly believe that a hifi system needs to have as flat a response as possible. It can't cater for our wide differences in hearing and can only really be as faithful to real life as possible. I just find it incredibly interesting and have learnt more as my father started to suffer hearing loss. It explains why many (often older people) like a hifi setup which is far brighter than I can stand. They may have 30db less sensitivity at 8kHz and that is massive. |
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Post by macca on Jul 23, 2022 7:16:43 GMT
brilliantly put . I was in a garden recently and my son said whats that noise ? i couldnt hear it although i count myself as having good hearing . It was a high pitched cat repeller with sonic noise . i just couldnt hear it at all ! Yes, that's pretty normal, and I can't hear them either (I'm 46). I had thought that HF hearing loss was mainly in the 10-20kHz region. However, it is mainly classed as the 2kHz and above. This was only a recent discovery when my father (in his 70s) was diagnosed with it. His sensitivity is seriously compromised above 2kHz and throughout the important vocal frequencies and most music covered by a tweeter. This becomes the case for many people as they age, and most of us don't recognise the gradual decline. Most people start to lose the ability to hear voices as well in our 60s and 70s. It does explain why my brother (early 30s) found some speakers painful to listen to at Cranage! Those rooms were invariably full of people at least 20-30years his senior (including the exibitor). When we asked them what they thought, they said 'perfectly balanced and neutral'! We asked them if they found the sound bright or harsh and they said 'no'. It would be interesting to know which speakers he found too bright. I'll forget harsh since harsh is something totally different to bright at least in my book. Harsh = distortion and that's a separate issue. You could also have a speaker that does not have an elevated mid or top, but does lack bass and that's also going to skew the perception towards 'bright'. Likewise a highly reflective room - although at a show even if they do not do any room treatment you've still often got a fair few people in the room acting as HF absorbers. At 53 I'd be a fool to think my hearing is as acute as it was at 35 but thinking back to when I was that age I am hard-pressed to recall a set-up that was too bright too listen to. Too Sh#t to listen to, yes, but that's not the same. i can think of a fair few that did not have any bass below about 100Hz, those little single driver open backed floorstanders for example, but they are just unsatisfying to me rather than bright. Some people may have elevated sensitivity around 1-4 Khz so I can see why they would find a lot of speakers bright but that's a hearing anomaly, not a fault with the speaker. Most won't find it bright. That your brother found some of the speakers 'painful' - I mean that is extreme - suggests to me that it's his individual hearing response curve, and not a problem with the speakers. I think for someone who has high sensitivity to upper mid frequencies they are best off using eq to adjust to their taste rather than trying to find a speaker that has a dip built in just where they want it. No-one is designing speakers to appeal to people with hearing anomalies. Well, maybe Audionote. |
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Post by macca on Jul 23, 2022 7:27:38 GMT
FR of musical instruments:  What is happening at 8Khz? Not a lot. Even if hearing is so screwed that you can't perceive 8Khz at all it's not actually that much of an issue, at least with acoustic instruments. Pop music has a lot more HF content, that is true, but I think in realty it's still not going to prevent that person enjoying it and perceiving the vast majority of what is happening in the mix. |
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