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Post by phonomac on Jul 23, 2022 7:45:27 GMT
If an instrument is playing G above C7, how do I know if it is a violin, a piccolo or a piano?
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jul 23, 2022 8:08:49 GMT
FR of musical instruments: What is happening at 8Khz? Not a lot. Even if hearing is so screwed that you can't perceive 8Khz at all it's not actually that much of an issue, at least with acoustic instruments. Pop music has a lot more HF content, that is true, but I think in realty it's still not going to prevent that person enjoying it and perceiving the vast majority of what is happening in the mix. That is very true for the fundamental harmonics of a note or sound. However, (I believe) it's all the multiple order harmonics and overtones above that continue up into the 5-8kHz and above. Many percussive instruments have harmonics easily up to 10khz and avove.
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Post by macca on Jul 23, 2022 8:39:31 GMT
Yes there's harmonics but then you've got to consider perceptual masking. We just don't hear a lot of that HF stuff because louder sounds lower down obscure it, that's how the data reduction algorithms work for MP3 and other codecs. Even with a solo instrument recording the fundamental obscures the harmonics.
Of course it is best to be able to hear as high as possible but in the real world of just enjoying music it's not really necessary. I mean look at FM - it cuts off at 15Khz (and it's digital - oh no!) did not stop a whole generation of classical music fans listening to Radio 3. For over a decade, until CD, it was widely considered the best domestic sound quality available.
Then it go silly with 24/96 and 192, an answer to a problem nobody had. It's funny with this hi-fi hobby that so often what is considered important is not actually important at all and what is thought irrelevant is actually very important.
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Post by Arke on Jul 23, 2022 10:09:17 GMT
If an instrument is playing G above C7, how do I know if it is a violin, a piccolo or a piano? Do elaborate? I assume there are a lot of other harmonics and timbres (depending on instrument material and method of excitation) a these differentiate the same note on different instruments.
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Post by Arke on Jul 23, 2022 11:03:55 GMT
Yes there's harmonics but then you've got to consider perceptual masking. We just don't hear a lot of that HF stuff because louder sounds lower down obscure it, that's how the data reduction algorithms work for MP3 and other codecs. Even with a solo instrument recording the fundamental obscures the harmonics. Of course it is best to be able to hear as high as possible but in the real world of just enjoying music it's not really necessary. I mean look at FM - it cuts off at 15Khz (and it's digital - oh no!) did not stop a whole generation of classical music fans listening to Radio 3. For over a decade, until CD, it was widely considered the best domestic sound quality available. Then it go silly with 24/96 and 192, an answer to a problem nobody had. It's funny with this hi-fi hobby that so often what is considered important is not actually important at all and what is thought irrelevant is actually very important. Ah OK. I'm definitely not an expert in the area, so it always interesting to learn more others who are more knowledgeable - it's certainly something I find very interesting. I shall be buying the book you recommended too. So essentially (in your view), a shelving off from 4khz (with maybe a 10-20db reduction at 8khz for someone over 60) in our hearing sensitivity wouldn't be that noticeable, since most instruments are below 4khz That seems counterintuitive to me, I guess one way to know for sure is to play music and use dsp to attenuate it from 4khz upwards (with a curve similar to a 60-69year old) and see if any instruments sound different.
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Post by phonomac on Jul 23, 2022 11:04:04 GMT
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Post by macca on Jul 23, 2022 11:15:35 GMT
Yes there's harmonics but then you've got to consider perceptual masking. We just don't hear a lot of that HF stuff because louder sounds lower down obscure it, that's how the data reduction algorithms work for MP3 and other codecs. Even with a solo instrument recording the fundamental obscures the harmonics. Of course it is best to be able to hear as high as possible but in the real world of just enjoying music it's not really necessary. I mean look at FM - it cuts off at 15Khz (and it's digital - oh no!) did not stop a whole generation of classical music fans listening to Radio 3. For over a decade, until CD, it was widely considered the best domestic sound quality available. Then it go silly with 24/96 and 192, an answer to a problem nobody had. It's funny with this hi-fi hobby that so often what is considered important is not actually important at all and what is thought irrelevant is actually very important. Ah OK. I'm definitely not an expert in the area, so it always interesting to learn more others who are more knowledgeable - it's certainly something I find very interesting. I shall be buying the book you recommended too. So essentially (in your view), a shelving off from 4khz (with maybe a 10-20db reduction at 8khz for someone over 60) in our hearing sensitivity wouldn't be that noticeable, since most instruments are below 4khz That seems counterintuitive to me, I guess one way to know for sure is to play music and use dsp to attenuate it from 4khz upwards (with a curve similar to a 60-69year old) and see if any instruments sound different. It wouldn't be noticeable to them since they can't hear it regardless But if you can hear it and you close down those frequencies above 4Khz then you do notice it, of course. If you have not tried it though, try it, it's not anything like as bad as you might expect. Personally I can perceive adjustments up to about 12Khz, after that I can cut the lot to nothing and it's barely noticeable. I suspect with Classical music you wouldn't notice at all. The point I was trying to make though is that most of those speakers on demo at Cranage were not designed to be bright or to appeal to a target audience with HF hearing loss. That your young brother found many of them bright or harsh I think is down to some other factor, not the in-room response of the speaker.
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Post by macca on Jul 23, 2022 11:20:58 GMT
I actually found the KEF LS60 to be too dull at that show, although that is active so you can do some limited adjustments to their balance. I don't know how they had them set up in that respect. IIRC Steve and Mike who were with me thought the same, and Steve is a few years older than me.
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Post by Arke on Jul 23, 2022 11:58:59 GMT
Ah OK. I'm definitely not an expert in the area, so it always interesting to learn more others who are more knowledgeable - it's certainly something I find very interesting. I shall be buying the book you recommended too. So essentially (in your view), a shelving off from 4khz (with maybe a 10-20db reduction at 8khz for someone over 60) in our hearing sensitivity wouldn't be that noticeable, since most instruments are below 4khz That seems counterintuitive to me, I guess one way to know for sure is to play music and use dsp to attenuate it from 4khz upwards (with a curve similar to a 60-69year old) and see if any instruments sound different. It wouldn't be noticeable to them since they can't hear it regardless But if you can hear it and you close down those frequencies above 4Khz then you do notice it, of course. If you have not tried it though, try it, it's not anything like as bad as you might expect. Personally I can perceive adjustments up to about 12Khz, after that I can cut the lot to nothing and it's barely noticeable. I suspect with Classical music you wouldn't notice at all. The point I was trying to make though is that most of those speakers on demo at Cranage were not designed to be bright or to appeal to a target audience with HF hearing loss. That your young brother found many of them bright or harsh I think is down to some other factor, not the in-room response of the speaker. Oh yes, i realise the speakers at Cranage wouldn't be deliberately made brighter for an older audience. We just noticed that people often had a different perception of how systems sounded. I just find it interesting how we all perceive things differently and there is not really a way to ever hear what someone else is hearing.
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Post by jandl100 on Jul 23, 2022 12:53:24 GMT
As a 66yo with average hearing loss (I can hear 8khz but not 9khz) I don't notice any difference in the music (mostly classical).
Of course, my hearing has slowly worsened over the years, so maybe I'm just used to it. But I can definitely say that I'm enjoying my hifi system at least as much as I ever have.
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Post by karma67 on Jul 23, 2022 12:59:53 GMT
As a 66yo with average hearing loss (I can hear 8khz but not 9khz) I don't notice any difference in the music (mostly classical). Of course, my hearing has slowly worsened over the years, so maybe I'm just used to it. But I can definitely say that I'm enjoying my hifi system at least as much as I ever have. to be fair if you have hearing loss you wont notice it will you,if you did you wouldn't have hearing loss
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jul 23, 2022 13:04:58 GMT
It would be interesting to know which speakers he found too bright. I'll forget harsh since harsh is something totally different to bright at least in my book. Harsh = distortion and that's a separate issue. You could also have a speaker that does not have an elevated mid or top, but does lack bass and that's also going to skew the perception towards 'bright'. Likewise a highly reflective room - although at a show even if they do not do any room treatment you've still often got a fair few people in the room acting as HF absorbers. At 53 I'd be a fool to think my hearing is as acute as it was at 35 but thinking back to when I was that age I am hard-pressed to recall a set-up that was too bright too listen to. Too Sh#t to listen to, yes, but that's not the same. i can think of a fair few that did not have any bass below about 100Hz, those little single driver open backed floorstanders for example, but they are just unsatisfying to me rather than bright. Some people may have elevated sensitivity around 1-4 Khz so I can see why they would find a lot of speakers bright but that's a hearing anomaly, not a fault with the speaker. Most won't find it bright. That your brother found some of the speakers 'painful' - I mean that is extreme - suggests to me that it's his individual hearing response curve, and not a problem with the speakers. I think for someone who has high sensitivity to upper mid frequencies they are best off using eq to adjust to their taste rather than trying to find a speaker that has a dip built in just where they want it. No-one is designing speakers to appeal to people with hearing anomalies. Well, maybe Audionote. Yes, yes, yes and yes. I can see my speakers, my hearing problems and my room in every part of this post. And so I've ditched (for now) the idea of changing my speakers, which I can barely afford, and might only change one set of issues for another, and have instead bought a sub (with another to be added soon) and plan to have a go at eq the set up. I will also be interested to see how a fellow forum member gets on with a hearing aid he intends to get.
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Post by jandl100 on Jul 23, 2022 13:10:57 GMT
As a 66yo with average hearing loss (I can hear 8khz but not 9khz) I don't notice any difference in the music (mostly classical). Of course, my hearing has slowly worsened over the years, so maybe I'm just used to it. But I can definitely say that I'm enjoying my hifi system at least as much as I ever have. to be fair if you have hearing loss you wont notice it will you,if you did you wouldn't have hearing loss Umm. I'm not sure that I follow your logic. The point about age related hearing loss is that it changes with time. Cymbals sound just as splashy and shimmery as ever. High trumpets just as delightfully squealy. Etc etc. Would I notice if my hearing loss continued to progress and rolled off at 2khz? I expect so.
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Post by Arke on Jul 23, 2022 13:12:36 GMT
As a 66yo with average hearing loss (I can hear 8khz but not 9khz) I don't notice any difference in the music (mostly classical). Of course, my hearing has slowly worsened over the years, so maybe I'm just used to it. But I can definitely say that I'm enjoying my hifi system at least as much as I ever have. The most important thing is that we still enjoy the music. I think age related hearing change is so gradual that we just adjust over time and don't really notice. My Father (73) noticed his hearing loss (more drastic change) when he couldn't hear my mum anymore! He now has a (very expensive) hearing aid, but sometimes opts to switch it off (quieter life)! He says music is quite different with it on vs off.
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Post by karma67 on Jul 23, 2022 13:21:09 GMT
well they do say a rough test is if you can hear the birds chirping on pink floyds breathe track from dsotm
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jul 23, 2022 13:27:20 GMT
I actually found the KEF LS60 to be too dull at that show, although that is active so you can do some limited adjustments to their balance. I don't know how they had them set up in that respect. IIRC Steve and Mike who were with me thought the same, and Steve is a few years older than me.Eh? What's that? Were them speakers working? Sorry I'm a bit distracted, trying to remember where I left my slippers... Yes, I remember those KEFs. Detailed, smooth, but a bit dark tonally. Nothing that couldn't be tweaked to suit I'm sure. Thing is, I'm past caring what might be considered "faithful to the original performance", I just want what sounds good to me. The more I read here and elsewhere, the more convinced I am that DSP may be my friend. If I only knew what DSP is
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Post by Arke on Jul 23, 2022 13:31:42 GMT
Yes, that's pretty normal, and I can't hear them either (I'm 46). I had thought that HF hearing loss was mainly in the 10-20kHz region. However, it is mainly classed as the 2kHz and above. This was only a recent discovery when my father (in his 70s) was diagnosed with it. His sensitivity is seriously compromised above 2kHz and throughout the important vocal frequencies and most music covered by a tweeter. This becomes the case for many people as they age, and most of us don't recognise the gradual decline. Most people start to lose the ability to hear voices as well in our 60s and 70s. It does explain why my brother (early 30s) found some speakers painful to listen to at Cranage! Those rooms were invariably full of people at least 20-30years his senior (including the exibitor). When we asked them what they thought, they said 'perfectly balanced and neutral'! We asked them if they found the sound bright or harsh and they said 'no'. It would be interesting to know which speakers he found too bright. I'll forget harsh since harsh is something totally different to bright at least in my book. Harsh = distortion and that's a separate issue. You could also have a speaker that does not have an elevated mid or top, but does lack bass and that's also going to skew the perception towards 'bright'. Likewise a highly reflective room - although at a show even if they do not do any room treatment you've still often got a fair few people in the room acting as HF absorbers. At 53 I'd be a fool to think my hearing is as acute as it was at 35 but thinking back to when I was that age I am hard-pressed to recall a set-up that was too bright too listen to. Too Sh#t to listen to, yes, but that's not the same. i can think of a fair few that did not have any bass below about 100Hz, those little single driver open backed floorstanders for example, but they are just unsatisfying to me rather than bright. Some people may have elevated sensitivity around 1-4 Khz so I can see why they would find a lot of speakers bright but that's a hearing anomaly, not a fault with the speaker. Most won't find it bright. That your brother found some of the speakers 'painful' - I mean that is extreme - suggests to me that it's his individual hearing response curve, and not a problem with the speakers. I think for someone who has high sensitivity to upper mid frequencies they are best off using eq to adjust to their taste rather than trying to find a speaker that has a dip built in just where they want it. No-one is designing speakers to appeal to people with hearing anomalies. Well, maybe Audionote. I'll have a have a think about speakers at show... Me and my brother generally had a similar opinion on which systems were more 'bright' or fwd. It was often only slight, we were being a bit nit picky too! You're right that it was often due to distortion, as many systems were being pushed to hard. Like I've said before... I completely agree that speakers should be voiced flat. I tune my tweeter attenuation and room acoustics to tailor the top end how I like it, but i have the option to tweak a little.
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Post by Arke on Jul 23, 2022 13:41:12 GMT
I actually found the KEF LS60 to be too dull at that show, although that is active so you can do some limited adjustments to their balance. I don't know how they had them set up in that respect. IIRC Steve and Mike who were with me thought the same, and Steve is a few years older than me.Eh? What's that? Were them speakers working? Sorry I'm a bit distracted, trying to remember where I left my slippers... Yes, I remember those KEFs. Detailed, smooth, but a bit dark tonally. Nothing that couldn't be tweaked to suit I'm sure. Thing is, I'm past caring what might be considered "faithful to the original performance", I just want what sounds good to me. The more I read here and elsewhere, the more convinced I am that DSP may be my friend. If I only knew what DSP is I found the KEFs a bit bright and thin sounding. 😂. Didn't like them and left. Maybe my system would sound like soft gloopy mess to others? 🤔
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jul 23, 2022 13:43:56 GMT
As a 66yo with average hearing loss (I can hear 8khz but not 9khz) I don't notice any difference in the music (mostly classical). Of course, my hearing has slowly worsened over the years, so maybe I'm just used to it. But I can definitely say that I'm enjoying my hifi system at least as much as I ever have. My HF hearing loss is not a problem when listening to new (to me) music, but I don't like how so much low level HF sounds on music from my youth has all but disappeared. An example is when I bought a new 180gm pressing of "Wish You Were Here" a few years ago, and so much detail was absent I thought there was a problem with the pressing, or whether the thicker vinyl was showing up poor VTA with my 2M black. But later found the same issues with CD. Another example would be breaking glass on "Private Investigations". I know there was some, and now it is gone completely.
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Post by karma67 on Jul 23, 2022 13:46:01 GMT
As a 66yo with average hearing loss (I can hear 8khz but not 9khz) I don't notice any difference in the music (mostly classical). Of course, my hearing has slowly worsened over the years, so maybe I'm just used to it. But I can definitely say that I'm enjoying my hifi system at least as much as I ever have. My HF hearing loss is not a problem when listening to new (to me) music, but I don't like how so much low level HF sounds on music from my youth has all but disappeared. An example is when I bought a new 180gm pressing of "Wish You Were Here" a few years ago, and so much detail was absent I thought there was a problem with the pressing, or whether the thicker vinyl was showing up poor VTA with my 2M black. But later found the same issues with CD. Another example would be breaking glass on "Private Investigations". I know there was some, and now it is gone completely. that was kinda the point i was making.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jul 23, 2022 14:01:08 GMT
My HF hearing loss is not a problem when listening to new (to me) music, but I don't like how so much low level HF sounds on music from my youth has all but disappeared. An example is when I bought a new 180gm pressing of "Wish You Were Here" a few years ago, and so much detail was absent I thought there was a problem with the pressing, or whether the thicker vinyl was showing up poor VTA with my 2M black. But later found the same issues with CD. Another example would be breaking glass on "Private Investigations". I know there was some, and now it is gone completely. that was kinda the point i was making. Pigmy pony's experience is the point I have been making too. People will perceive music and systems differently, especially as we age and those with hearing damage from many gigs and loud music.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jul 23, 2022 15:06:32 GMT
that was kinda the point i was making. Pigmy pony's experience is the point I have been making too. People will perceive music and systems differently, especially as we age and those with hearing damage from many gigs and loud music. But you know, if we had our time over again, would we do things differently? I certainly wouldn't have been going to the concerts, festivals and raves with ear plugs in. All things considered my past fun was well worth the dodgy hearing I have today. The only thing that would change would be ear plugs when on me motorbikes. I came to doing that a bit late.
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Post by karma67 on Jul 23, 2022 15:19:58 GMT
i used to regularly go home from work with my ears ringing,i started to think i had tinnitus. i started wearing the 3m soft ear plugs and now its gone. im so used to wearing them now i cant be without them,every thing at work sounds bloody loud,drilling and especially centre punching metal does my head in,even the cackle of welding now is too loud!i suppose its a good thing,i wonder how the other guy i work with can work without any form of ear protection.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jul 23, 2022 15:52:14 GMT
i used to regularly go home from work with my ears ringing,i started to think i had tinnitus. i started wearing the 3m soft ear plugs and now its gone. im so used to wearing them now i cant be without them,every thing at work sounds bloody loud,drilling and especially centre punching metal does my head in,even the cackle of welding now is too loud!i suppose its a good thing,i wonder how the other guy i work with can work without any form of ear protection. So the way you hear things while at work has become normal for you, the same way that HF loss seems "normal" to those with it. Only reason we know it's not is by having a point of reference, such as remembering how it was, or in your case after taking the plugs out. We're very adaptable really.
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Post by karma67 on Jul 23, 2022 16:02:38 GMT
absolutely! spot on.you need a point of reference. im also aware that with the plugs in i tend to raise my voice. lol
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Post by edward on Jul 23, 2022 16:30:58 GMT
As a 66yo with average hearing loss (I can hear 8khz but not 9khz) I don't notice any difference in the music (mostly classical). Of course, my hearing has slowly worsened over the years, so maybe I'm just used to it. But I can definitely say that I'm enjoying my hifi system at least as much as I ever have. The most important thing is that we still enjoy the music. I think age related hearing change is so gradual that we just adjust over time and don't really notice. My Father (73) noticed his hearing loss (more drastic change) when he couldn't hear my mum anymore! He now has a (very expensive) hearing aid, but sometimes opts to switch it off (quieter life)! He says music is quite different with it on vs off. When you say your father says music is quite different with it (hearing aids) on vs off. Better or worse? Or just different?
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jul 23, 2022 17:08:47 GMT
The most important thing is that we still enjoy the music. I think age related hearing change is so gradual that we just adjust over time and don't really notice. My Father (73) noticed his hearing loss (more drastic change) when he couldn't hear my mum anymore! He now has a (very expensive) hearing aid, but sometimes opts to switch it off (quieter life)! He says music is quite different with it on vs off. When you say your father says music is quite different with it (hearing aids) on vs off. Better or worse? Or just different? I too would be interested to hear this. And whether there are marked differences between different models of hearing aid. Some are available on NHS I believe, how will they compare SQ wise with models costing a fortune? I wouldn't be bothering with something that sounds like an old Alba stereo turned up full...
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Post by antonio on Jul 23, 2022 18:21:37 GMT
Well I've got an appointment at the hospital in a couple of weeks to have hearing aids fitted: Someone on pfm advised me to go through the NHS rather than spend over #2K on aids purchased privately, he seemed to know what he was talking about having previously owned some at over #3k
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Post by Arke on Jul 23, 2022 19:05:11 GMT
The most important thing is that we still enjoy the music. I think age related hearing change is so gradual that we just adjust over time and don't really notice. My Father (73) noticed his hearing loss (more drastic change) when he couldn't hear my mum anymore! He now has a (very expensive) hearing aid, but sometimes opts to switch it off (quieter life)! He says music is quite different with it on vs off. When you say your father says music is quite different with it (hearing aids) on vs off. Better or worse? Or just different? I'll have a chat to him and find out more. Not sure if it adds much in a hifi experience. Although it does amplifier certain frequencies, it's certainly not to a decent audiophile quality.
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Post by edward on Jul 23, 2022 20:08:53 GMT
When you say your father says music is quite different with it (hearing aids) on vs off. Better or worse? Or just different? I'll have a chat to him and find out more. Not sure if it adds much in a hifi experience. Although it does amplifier certain frequencies, it's certainly not to a decent audiophile quality. Thanks. Yes I can quite imagine that it will not be up to audiophile quality. It will come down to the usual of what bit rate and sampling frequency is being used. There will, by its nature, have to be compromises made. But maybe we will be surprised and find it will be at Redbook standard or better. Certainly adc/dac chips have come on leaps and bounds in recent years.
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