Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 7:12:24 GMT
I have been searching for a vintage DAC for a little while now, mainly due to the mutterings of content from our box-swapping expert Mr jandl100 and our resident "digital agitator" misterc. Both have been pretty convincing in regard to their respective "Old Skool" digital music makers. The draw to this particular model was the impressive build quality and the PCM63 engine under the hood. Visually, i don't think it's pulling up any trees but it does have a particular bomb-proof quality about it, which i like. Getting it out of the box was the first wow moment. You can see in the pictures of this model that it's pretty sturdy looking, but in the hands, it feels heavy, rigid and has a very robust textured finish on the case. A bit like you'd find on vintage power supplies etc. Really nice. I am not sure the feet are standard as they are cheap little plastic jobbies with gold tape around them. Aesthetically fine, but absolute tat. They will be replaced regardless. At the moment, this DAC is only capable of playing 16/44 or HDCD....which i do not own, so all listening is done with CD rips that are stored on my Aria Digibit Streamer. This may be seen as a hugely limiting factor, but i will explain later as to why it will not be. After giving the DAC a good 3-4 hours of warm up time, i decided to have a listen. One of my preferred test tracks is Marlon Williams - Everyone’s Got Something to Say. It's not a complex piece of music, but there are deliberate distortions in places, his vocals are very well recorded and the addition of a female vocalist on the track is a great way of hearing how well devices can separate the two, and prevent them singing over each other. When the vocal starts, i notice there is a very different presentation to this DAC, Vs the memory of my absent Soekris 2541. It's receded a little into the soundstage. There is less attack, it's not as visceral in the delivery, and most importantly, i am not as "close" to the singer as i have become accustomed to. The Vocals are clear though, lots of definition to them too, but the space isnt as large around them. With the Soekris, Holo DACs, there is a real sense of space, a freedom in which the vocals can flourish. It's not like the Parasound is miles off, it isn't, but we are talking fine margins. The vocals were very well separated and the guitar had a very convincing tone. It was positive. I moved on to some other material i know well, Ike Quebec - Blue and Sentimental. Again, i noticed the space wasn't as expansive around the performer via the Parasound. However, as i sat there listening to this masterpiece, there was something going on.....my foot was tapping and my chair was rocking. I was very absorbed into the music. Like a connection had unwittigngly, almost covertly occurred between my soul and the music. My mind wasn't involved. It felt good, it felt like i wasn't listening to digital music........."oh, hang on" i thought. Shuffling through my vast collection of ripped CDs, I happened upon Janos Starkers Cello works. It's about 3 million hours long, boring as sin, and to be honest i really don't know why i have it.....well i do now. Listening to this fella saw away at the Cello has, in the past, been a miserable affair. The Cello has NEVER produced a realistic sound, the conveyance of emotion was missing, there hasn't been ANYTHING i have really taken away from it with any fondness. Well listening via the Parasound made me reel in shock. The Cello had volume and mass, it had a rich, woody tone. It had presence, grandeur and Low frequency harmonic interplay! It was being played by a master, and the flair and passion for the instrument flowed from the performance. WOW.....i said to myself. I shuffled again and again, and listened for a few hours. Then i landed on Ocean Colour Scene - Robin Hood. From the opening slow played guitar chord...i was captured. Again, it was all very emotive, intimate, I was hanging on the timing changes....I was really into what i was listening to, like nothing else in the world was happening. Just like i used to be when this stuff came out and i heard it for the first time. I wasn't sitting there listening for the tiny nano sized details, i was listening to a song i really enjoy, by a band i have loved for 25 years....wow. At this point, i really was starting to think about what is actually the most important role of my system....was it unrelenting transparency, detail and nuances, extracting the most from the recording, or should it be aimed at extracting the most out of me? It's a big question to be asking myself after a relentless quest for the former, but there is something about how this DAC makes music that is raising more questions than i had answers. But that's due to how utterly detached from the modern-day DAC sound this thing is. I mean, ok....If I am being hyper critical, would I WANT that space around the instruments? Yes, I know it exists, but it's actually less important than I thought it would be. I have a lot of listening to do with this DAC. Actually, i WANT to do a lot more serious listening, but for that i need to open up the rest of my library of 24/96 files. To do this this, I need to do some minor modifications. You may recall that i mentioned that its only currently capable of 16/44 or HDCD, well it actually isnt. In stock form the unit comes with CS8412 SPDIF receiver and a PMD100 Digital filter installed. Perfectly fine 25 years ago. however, we can do better now, so i will be replacing them with CS8414 and DP1706 respectively. This will give the DAC 24/96 capability I am told this is a very decent improvement, but as always, the proof is in the pudding. I have ordered these bits from Audio-Tuning.de to find out. More to come.
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optical
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Post by optical on Jun 9, 2022 7:24:01 GMT
This is something I've been pondering for a while too, and also the reason I still switch back to my TDA1541 DAC. (Yes I know valve output etc etc, distortion etc etc . . . ).
But for some material it really does sound a lot more sympathetic. It's not a case of one DAC fits all (at least I haven't found it yet). Ideally yes it would be nice not to have to switch back and forth (depending on what sort of genre I'm listening to). As we've said before though, it seems you have to make a decision and find a balance between that nuanced detail (which can be extremely pleasing and addictive) and the classic analogue, smooth, lush presentation that just makes you want to listen forever.
It does sound like you may uncover a bit more of the air and space in the recordings with a few mods though to hopefully go some way to striking that perfect balance (which may not be at the same point for everyone of course).
Again I've literally just (yesterday) had it hit home even more that partnering equipment plays a vital role too. The slightly 'warmer' presentation of my Martin Logans plays well with the Soekris which if being hyper critical could be accused of being too detailed for some (maybe that's just a personal preference thought). Although the Soekris does manage a lovely analogue/lush presentation too . . . .
Interested to see how this pans out mate, good work.
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Post by macca on Jun 9, 2022 7:41:28 GMT
The feet are standard, they are the same as on the transport I have. You don't want to change them.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 7:58:56 GMT
This is something I've been pondering for a while too, and also the reason I still switch back to my TDA1541 DAC. (Yes I know valve output etc etc, distortion etc etc . . . ). But for some material it really does sound a lot more sympathetic. It's not a case of one DAC fits all (at least I haven't found it yet). Ideally yes it would be nice not to have to switch back and forth (depending on what sort of genre I'm listening to). As we've said before though, it seems you have to make a decision and find a balance between that nuanced detail (which can be extremely pleasing and addictive) and the classic analogue, smooth, lush presentation that just makes you want to listen forever. It does sound like you may uncover a bit more of the air and space in the recordings with a few mods though to hopefully go some way to striking that perfect balance (which may not be at the same point for everyone of course). Again I've literally just (yesterday) had it hit home even more that partnering equipment plays a vital role too. The slightly 'warmer' presentation of my Martin Logans plays well with the Soekris which if being hyper critical could be accused of being too detailed for some (maybe that's just a personal preference thought). Although the Soekris does manage a lovely analogue/lush presentation too . . . . Interested to see how this pans out mate, good work. I am sure there is a DAC out there that could strike a very happy medium. It may well be this one here once it is modded, but i wont know until i try it. Funny how these thing happen isnt it. One minute youre purring away with a 2541, the next you are seeing what a 25 year old dac can do. The 1541 you have isn't as smooth or refined as the 2541. I think you may foind some mileage trying one, if you can find a good, cheap used one. I suspect that the ML's will play nicely with one of those.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 7:59:24 GMT
The feet are standard, they are the same as on the transport I have. You don't want to change them. Why not? i wont bin them and they can be restored if need be.
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Post by misterc on Jun 9, 2022 8:12:22 GMT
Hello Oli, You've had a reverse Martin T moment, welcome to the start of your new musical journey, just now with a more enjoyable sound with real three dimensional textural layering, something only trhe very best uber dac can achieve at the moment
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Post by macca on Jun 9, 2022 8:12:41 GMT
because they suit the overall look of the unit.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 8:14:22 GMT
Hello Oli, You've had a reverse Martin T moment, welcome to the start of your new musical journey, just now with a more enjoyable sound Trouble is, I now have to spend more money lol
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 8:15:32 GMT
because they suit the overall look of the unit. I'll give you that, but I like to isolate things so I'll be whacking some super soft feet underneath. I need to rid myself of this glass rack....then it will matter less.
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Post by antonio on Jun 9, 2022 8:17:19 GMT
Very pleased you have found plenty of plus points in your new/old Parasound, from my experience pretty much all hifi at this price point offers different pluses and minuses, it is only when spending considerably more you can have 'your cake and eat it'. Will be interested to find out what your intended mods, increasing up to 24/96 will do to the sq.
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Post by macca on Jun 9, 2022 8:17:53 GMT
isolating it won't make a scrap of difference, there could be a scale 8 earthquake going on and it would carry on working just fine.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 8:22:28 GMT
isolating it won't make a scrap of difference, there could be a scale 8 earthquake going on and it would carry on working just fine. I am not sure i agree, but i have nothing scientific to back it up with, so just put it down to neurotic tendacies lol
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Post by misterc on Jun 9, 2022 8:23:21 GMT
That is the name of the game I'm afraid Oli, the dac chips are capable of 706Khz (1704's for 768Khz) although you will need a slight different filter to achieve this.
The last pair of 27ix's I have just completed thus far stand £2K for components and the circuit redesign, however this is substanically better than a dcs/Audio Research etc
Would suggest around £300 and you will make a very postive difference. I forgot they use a DIR and sperate DIA's, a clock change works really well on thise, however you have two frequencies to concentrate on 16.934Mz & 18.432Mhz for the 44.1 and 48Khz multipules respectively.
Sounds like an interesting project
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 8:23:21 GMT
Very pleased you have found plenty of plus points in your new/old Parasound, from my experience pretty much all hifi at this price point offers different pluses and minuses, it is only when spending considerably more you can have 'your cake and eat it'. Will be interested to find out what your intended mods, increasing up to 24/96 will do to the sq. I am yet to hear ANYTHING in the digital realm that has been 100% perfect mate. Regardless of price. Maybe i need to get out more lol
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Post by antonio on Jun 9, 2022 8:23:43 GMT
macca There's still nothing wrong with trying further isolation, you maybe correct, but Oli's intention will prove to him one way or the other.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 8:24:40 GMT
That is the name of the game I'm afraid Oli, the dac chips are capable of 706Khz (1704's for 768Khz) although you will need a slight different filter to achieve this. The last pair of 27ix's I have just completed thus far stand £2K for components and the circuit redesign, however this is substanically better than a dcs/Audio Research etc Would suggest around £300 and you will make a very postive difference. I forgot they use a DIR and sperate DIA's, a clock change works really well on thise, however you have two frequencies to concentrate on 16.934Mz & 18.432Mhz for the 44.1 and 48Khz multipules respectively. Sounds like an interesting project I am at £150 for the replacement chips. If you can see any other drop in improvements let me know.
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Post by misterc on Jun 9, 2022 8:26:51 GMT
I am yet to hear ANYTHING in the digital realm that has been 100% perfect mate. Regardless of price. Maybe i need to get out more lol
Using the later 8414 will impress jitter its claimed 50fs, usually this translates into a more cohesive sound with better depth and improved noise floor and greater resolution, my colleague calls it 'wiping the window'
They are a great many dac/streamers that are quite stunning and now cover 95% of the bases, but you really will need to have a matching system no question cost, well that an individual concern
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Post by misterc on Jun 9, 2022 8:28:41 GMT
That is the name of the game I'm afraid Oli, the dac chips are capable of 706Khz (1704's for 768Khz) although you will need a slight different filter to achieve this. The last pair of 27ix's I have just completed thus far stand £2K for components and the circuit redesign, however this is substanically better than a dcs/Audio Research etc Would suggest around £300 and you will make a very postive difference. I forgot they use a DIR and sperate DIA's, a clock change works really well on thise, however you have two frequencies to concentrate on 16.934Mz & 18.432Mhz for the 44.1 and 48Khz multipules respectively. Sounds like an interesting project I am at £150 for the replacement chips. If you can see any other drop in improvements let me know. You can have done that for around £50 all you had to do was solder a SOIC to dip package £5, chips (Genuine 25 for 4) DIR 1706 maybe £12 at most and adpater board., Its just a little time Oli
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Post by antonio on Jun 9, 2022 8:29:47 GMT
Very pleased you have found plenty of plus points in your new/old Parasound, from my experience pretty much all hifi at this price point offers different pluses and minuses, it is only when spending considerably more you can have 'your cake and eat it'. Will be interested to find out what your intended mods, increasing up to 24/96 will do to the sq. I am yet to hear ANYTHING in the digital realm that has been 100% perfect mate. Regardless of price. Maybe i need to get out more lol Now you're splitting hairs Have you heard any hifi that is perfect regardless of price? I can honestly say my brother's system is pretty much 'there' for me at that price point, but would a different dac make it any better, maybe for some, but not necessarily for others.
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Post by misterc on Jun 9, 2022 8:29:57 GMT
macca There's still nothing wrong with trying further isolation, you maybe correct, but Oli's intention will prove to him one way or the other. Absolutely no question Dave, they only racka that a glass and steel here are for display purposes only.
They will never see the light of day in any system that I build
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 8:30:58 GMT
I am yet to hear ANYTHING in the digital realm that has been 100% perfect mate. Regardless of price. Maybe i need to get out more lol Now you're splitting hairs Have you heard any hifi that is perfect regardless of price? I can honestly say my brother's system is pretty much 'there' for me at that price point, but would a different dac make it any better, maybe for some, but not necessarily for others. Yes, I happen to have a vinyl setup that's pretty much perfect for me....just haven't got there with digital yet.
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Post by macca on Jun 9, 2022 8:59:34 GMT
Very pleased you have found plenty of plus points in your new/old Parasound, from my experience pretty much all hifi at this price point offers different pluses and minuses, it is only when spending considerably more you can have 'your cake and eat it'. Will be interested to find out what your intended mods, increasing up to 24/96 will do to the sq. I am yet to hear ANYTHING in the digital realm that has been 100% perfect mate. Regardless of price. Maybe i need to get out more lol I'm not sure exactly what it is you're looking for but I don't think it exists. You were happy with the sound when you brought your DAC (about five DACs ago lol) and amp round to mine though? I can tell you 100% that nothing would improve on that sound quality except better speakers and/or a better room. You'll never get it sounding like its a vinyl record that's playing, there's no point chasing that rainbow.
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optical
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Post by optical on Jun 9, 2022 9:12:56 GMT
I am yet to hear ANYTHING in the digital realm that has been 100% perfect mate. Regardless of price. Maybe i need to get out more lol I'm not sure exactly what it is you're looking for but I don't think it exists. You were happy with the sound when you brought your DAC (about five DACs ago lol) and amp round to mine though? I can tell you 100% that nothing would improve on that sound quality except better speakers and/or a better room. You'll never get it sounding like its a vinyl record that's playing, there's no point chasing that rainbow. I know what you mean Martin but you only have your top reference as that reference. I'm not saying you're wrong that it couldn't be improved upon, but it's difficult to stamp it with an absolute statement like that unless you've heard pretty much everything else or indeed something better (which would give you that new reference). There's a difference between being 'happy' with the sound and then hearing something you prefer, they are not mutually exclusive. Prolonged listening yields different long-term impressions, initial thoughts on presentation can change.
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Post by misterc on Jun 9, 2022 9:28:14 GMT
Its like if your a whippet thrasher & toe tapper (naimie) and you listen to real music reproduction its bit of a life changing event until you get home and have a self affermation about how good Sailsbury finest really is
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Post by mikeyb on Jun 9, 2022 9:52:07 GMT
See aw that foot tapping and rocking in your chair, it's an age thing, you'll only get better at it 😉 😂
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 10:54:59 GMT
I am yet to hear ANYTHING in the digital realm that has been 100% perfect mate. Regardless of price. Maybe i need to get out more lol I'm not sure exactly what it is you're looking for but I don't think it exists. You were happy with the sound when you brought your DAC (about five DACs ago lol) and amp round to mine though? I can tell you 100% that nothing would improve on that sound quality except better speakers and/or a better room. You'll never get it sounding like its a vinyl record that's playing, there's no point chasing that rainbow. I think we have tpo remember that i didn't sell the Soekris 2541 because i was unhappy with it, i wasnt. I think it's a world class DAC, certainly won't hesitate to buy another if the moods takes me. There was a Terminator T2 dangled in front of me and i gambled, and it didn't go my way. In fact from what i hear it didn't go in anyones way as the owner pulled out of an agreed sale. What i have done is take this as an opportunity to try something of interest, and like i say, it has raised more questions than answers. I was never unhappy with the sound the Soekris produced. I want that to be clear. I agree that trying to get digital to sound like vinyl is fools game, It's not what i am trying to do. however, after hearing this DAC and understanding how the Sorekris impressed me so much, i can now plot a path from what i now know digital can produce. I didn't know that such musical engagement was possible with digital. Only vinyl has ever truly whittled away hours, while feeling like only minutes have passed. Yesterday i listened to the Parasound and looked up at 19:15 realising id spent about 3.5hr listening. That is a rare occasion for me with digital. That feeling, the presence of the Parasound, the tonality, the fluidity, plus the expansiveness of the Soekris/Holo DACS......thats what i am after.
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Post by macca on Jun 9, 2022 11:44:50 GMT
I thought you had owned two different Soekris DACs, the first one you had was the one you brought round mine?
Oh well no matter.
I really couldn't fault that DAC but then I really can't fault the Topping E30 so whatever it is that your after I can't really relate to it.
Although having said that I still think in the back of my mind that the best digital source I had was the Sony SCD XB790 QS, I really should get the draw fixed on that and go back to it to see if that is true. I don't trust my memory of what things sounded like, especially if a fair bit of time has elapsed, which it has.
Plus I think some of it is state of mind at the time, sometimes I will listen five or six hours, sometimes just after one album I will switch off, but nothing has changed with the system, it's just the mood I am in. I've found with me at least that the arrival of new kit, or making some change, tends to get the blood up a bit until the novelty wears off.
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Post by jandl100 on Jun 9, 2022 11:58:54 GMT
Ah, good, interesting. I can't say I am surprised by your initial findings, Oli.
Setting aside our audiophile yearnings for the ultimate transparency, rez and dynamics can be a hard hurdle to put behind you. But the musical rewards can be substantial if you are able to.
It's all about a closer emotional connection to the musical event. I've no idea at all why the older digital tech can do this so much better than the latest technoperfect digital wizardry, but based on my own experience there's no doubt in my mind that it can.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 9, 2022 12:22:35 GMT
Yes macca I had the 1421 at yours, that Chris bought so I bought the 2541 because it had AES input. That was something I wanted so I made the move.
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Post by macca on Jun 9, 2022 12:42:30 GMT
Yes macca I had the 1421 at yours, that Chris bought so I bought the 2541 because it had AES input. That was something I wanted so I made the move. So I'm not going doolally then, you did have two of them.
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