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Post by macca on Nov 12, 2022 13:12:37 GMT
I listened to the LED opinions we had ages ago...orange and white are the only options now lol Orange is best for SQ too. There is ASR 'study' on it somewhere... Warmer sound. As opposed to the sterile sound of blue or the organic sound of green. Red, of course, sounds 'Vintage'.
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Post by macca on Nov 12, 2022 13:15:59 GMT
Wharfedale actually did test this back in the early 80s but with speaker colour rather than LED colour.
The speaker colour did correspond to the listeners impressions of sound quality with red being warm, yellow being bright-sounding etc. The speakers were identical apart from their colour. (The listeners did not know what was being tested).
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Post by macca on Nov 12, 2022 13:20:17 GMT
A bit early to be giving impressions but I was looking for something that came in between the ruthless explicitness of the DCB1 and the 1970s-style warmth and easy-listening qualities of the Philips and I think this might be it.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Nov 12, 2022 13:21:53 GMT
Wharfedale actually did test this back in the early 80s but with speaker colour rather than LED colour. The speaker colour did correspond to the listeners impressions of sound quality with red being warm, yellow being bright-sounding etc. The speakers were identical apart from their colour. (The listeners did not know what was being tested). I'm always faster when I ride in my yellow Jersey!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 12, 2022 13:53:12 GMT
A bit early to be giving impressions but I was looking for something that came in between the ruthless explicitness of the DCB1 and the 1970s-style warmth and easy-listening qualities of the Philips and I think this might be it. Thats a very interesting statement, because i know what you mean by it having had a couple of DCB1's here. I'll say no more and see what conclusion you arrive at, but it's good news that it's sounding like a positive experience so far.
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Post by macca on Nov 13, 2022 20:04:30 GMT
Okay second listening test, serious this time Took out the old pre-amp, put my patented washing machine feet in to separate it a useful distance from the transport below, redressed all the cables round the back. I don't tend to listen for the usual audiophile things like soundstage and imaging since I find it impossible to recall what they were like with other equipment unless instant switching is available. Instead I listen for problems like colouration and distortion, and for what might be missing. I also like to note whether or not I have to concentrate to perceive subtle elements of the recording. A good system should just present them. In terms of comparison my recent preamps have been the Philips AH280 'Black Tulip' and Nelson Pass DCB1. Not used the Pass pre in a while so bear in mind my memory may not be so good on that one. The Philips is a bit warm but with sparkle. It's a bit generic in its sound, especially in the bass. It's a relaxing and enjoyable listen but it's not neutral by any stretch. The Pass DCB1 is almost the opposite, quite scarily open and revealing of the differences between recordings, and of different instrumental tone. So I kicked off with 'Gaucho', an easy one to get right - and so it was, this recording did not really tell me anything, it's an impeccable recording it was impeccably reproduced. Only thing I noticed was that the keyboards tones seemed to be very real and natural, more so than usual. Moved on to demo favourite 'Brothers In Arms', again an impeccable recording (this was the 1990s re-master). But I wanted to listen to one thing in particular. In the outro to the tune 'Why Worry?' the rhythm meanders for a while and then picks up again with the drummer working a snare in the back right of the soundstage. With the DCB1 the snare could be heard in its own acoustic, sounding very real, and moreover this was totally obvious, not something you had to listen out for or concentrate on to hear, it was just there. I distinctly recall this from the first time I listened to this recording through the DCB1 because it had my jaw on the floor. You don't get it with the Philips - sure you hear the snare and it's in the same spot in the soundstage, but it's acoustic is not there, at least not so blatantly. You can listen for it and maybe then it becomes apparent but this is the difference between the best and the also rans. With the best you don't need to listen out. So with the BT2 the snare was there, the acoustic was apparent, the only difference was that the snare sound seemed slightly softer. Or maybe slightly blurred. It was not quite as sharp as with the DCB1. Next couple of albums I listened to sort of confirmed that impression I had when first plugging the BT2 in yesterday. Simply Red 'Stars', which is a workmanlike studio recording, all the best equipment used, not too many gizmos or effects just a fairly stripped-down band, well-recorded. With DCB1 this was like listening in the studio, serious impact, quite raw, the recording totally dissected. With the Philips, just a pleasant, musical sound. With the BT2 it was like the DCB1 with its 'full-on' nature just dialled back a fraction. Last up Rolling Stones 'Emotional Rescue'. More of the same. Sound is somewhere between raw studio control room and relaxing home listening. With vocals added reverb and doubling was obvious, as was their own acoustic space. Instrumental timbre was beautifully resolved, I noticed this with electronic keyboards especially. These are all attributes I valued the DCB1 for, they have not been lost with the BT2. What is' not there is that super-rawness of the DCB1. I sort of liked and hated that rawness at the same time. It was mesmerising to hear a recording so completely revealed, but it did make listening a little exhausting, especially with rock music. I was hoping from my memory of hearing the BT2 previously that it would not be quite so explicit, whilst still keeping the qualities I value reasonably intact. So far this does seem to be the case.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 13, 2022 20:56:13 GMT
Thanks for taking the time to share Macca.
Just a bit of my personal experience:
The DCB1 was an interesting preamp. I had three in various guises, but they always appeared to me that it had rawness about it, which, at times made things sound a little sharp here. Just sharp enough to make you wince a little with those high noted vocals from female singers. Not terrible, but defo there. This seemed to improve a bit as you whacked up the amps, and at 1.2A (Turbo build) things got a bit better, but it never lost that slightly aggressive (IMO) leading edge. When i compared it to the Neurochrome 8x2 preamp, the DCB1 felt heavier, thicker, and initially the Neurochrome impressed me hugely with it's transparency, speed and accuracy.
After a while, the BT2 prototype landed and there were clear differences (i had all three here at the time)
The DCB1 is orders of magnitude behind the Neurochrome and the BT2 for THD+N, SNR etc. My feeling at the time was that the DCB1 was the least refined of the three, which is why i sold it. MisterC then brought his Liquid Music round and it spanked the 8x2, so the 8x2 got a LPSU and improved greatly....but it never surpassed the refinement of the breadboard BT2. It was sold swiftly after i got the first PCBs for the BT2 proper.
Interestingly, the BT2 *can* be made to sound a little sharper/cleaner still (not harsher)...by changing the RCA sockets from CMC to WBT. Happy to discuss this with you if you feel it may be something you want to investigate. Yeah, i know that people will think that's bonkers, but it's absolutely true.....and significantly more expensive.
Don't forget, that BT2 is brand new. It can take a little bit for stuff to bed in, so may change a little with some use.
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Post by macca on Nov 13, 2022 21:24:44 GMT
You reminded me of something I was going to mention.
With 'Brothers In Arms', through the DCB1, when that synth kicks in right at the start of 'Walk Of Life'? That used to make me wince a bit, even at fairly low levels.
I can't recall any other music where that happened with DCB1 though, but there might have been a couple of other moments on other recordings that have slipped my mind. It was never harsh or hard though, like you say.
At this level it's very hard to say which presentation is more 'right'. DCB1 or BT2. I don't really think it matters that much. Ultimately it still comes down to which one we'd prefer to live with.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 13, 2022 21:35:13 GMT
You reminded me of something I was going to mention. With 'Brothers In Arms', through the DCB1, when that synth kicks in right at the start of 'Walk Of Life'? That used to make me wince a bit, even at fairly low levels. I can't recall any other music where that happened with DCB1 though, but there might have been a couple of other moments on other recordings that have slipped my mind. It was never harsh or hard though, like you say. At this level it's very hard to say which presentation is more 'right'. DCB1 or BT2. I don't really think it matters that much. Ultimately it still comes down to which one we'd prefer to live with. Yeah, you're absolutely right mate, it's all about what works for you. Glad I nudged a bit of grey matter and brought it up though, as it does suggest the DCB1 is exhibiting the same behaviour with you, even if it's an isolated incident at the moment. I suspect there would be more, as there was here, but no matter. Anyway, if you think you'd like a little more resolution, or even cleaner lines, let me know and we'll sort out some different sockets out for the difference in price. No problem at all. I can always use CMC sockets.
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Post by macca on Nov 13, 2022 21:56:07 GMT
You reminded me of something I was going to mention. With 'Brothers In Arms', through the DCB1, when that synth kicks in right at the start of 'Walk Of Life'? That used to make me wince a bit, even at fairly low levels. I can't recall any other music where that happened with DCB1 though, but there might have been a couple of other moments on other recordings that have slipped my mind. It was never harsh or hard though, like you say. At this level it's very hard to say which presentation is more 'right'. DCB1 or BT2. I don't really think it matters that much. Ultimately it still comes down to which one we'd prefer to live with. Glad I nudged a bit of grey matter and brought it up though, as it does suggest the DCB1 is exhibiting the same behaviour with you, even if it's an isolated incident at the moment. I suspect there would be more, as there was here, but no matter. I think it is indicative that the DCB1 is not quite neutral, even though that was the only 'wincing' moment I recall, it would still be putting that effect onto everything. It just wasn't triggering that extreme response in me with programme other than that one song. That I can recall, anyway. My room is pretty large and well damped though as you know and I'd expect that will ameliorate the effect compared to in a smaller, livelier room.
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 13, 2022 22:06:00 GMT
Glad I nudged a bit of grey matter and brought it up though, as it does suggest the DCB1 is exhibiting the same behaviour with you, even if it's an isolated incident at the moment. I suspect there would be more, as there was here, but no matter. I think it is indicative that the DCB1 is not quite neutral, even though that was the only 'wincing' moment I recall, it would still be putting that effect onto everything. It just wasn't triggering that extreme response in me with programme other than that one song. That I can recall, anyway. My room is pretty large and well damped though as you know and I'd expect that will ameliorate the effect compared to in a smaller, livelier room. Yep, makes sense. My room was very live with all the glass etc.
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Post by macca on Nov 20, 2022 9:24:59 GMT
Noticed yesterday I have some audible hum, only audible with ear right up against the midrange driver but it's still unacceptable.
I am going to have to rethink my set up so I can go back to using the Spotifre cable from pre to power. The longer Cambridge and Belden cables give hum with both DCB1 and the BT2, but not with the Philips pre. With Spotfire no hum at all. I'm not sure why that is but I'm not spending any more money on cables.
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 20, 2022 9:30:49 GMT
Noticed yesterday I have some audible hum, only audible with ear right up against the midrange driver but it's still unacceptable. I am going to have to rethink my set up so I can go back to using the Spotifre cable from pre to power. The longer Cambridge and Belden cables give hum with both DCB1 and the BT2, but not with the Philips pre. With Spotfire no hum at all. I'm not sure why that is but I'm not spending any more money on cables. Probably a shielding issue, but as to why that would be an issue....I don't know?.
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Post by macca on Nov 20, 2022 10:54:12 GMT
Noticed yesterday I have some audible hum, only audible with ear right up against the midrange driver but it's still unacceptable. I am going to have to rethink my set up so I can go back to using the Spotifre cable from pre to power. The longer Cambridge and Belden cables give hum with both DCB1 and the BT2, but not with the Philips pre. With Spotfire no hum at all. I'm not sure why that is but I'm not spending any more money on cables. Probably a shielding issue, but as to why that would be an issue....I don't know?. . The hum with DCB1 used with the Belden and Cambridge cables is audible at distance, with BT2 only audible right against the speaker. This difference also makes no sense to me. Indeed I would not have noticed it at all with the BT2 had I not decided to check it. troubleshooting it will be time consuming so I probably won't bother and just swap back to what works, but it must be something to do with a ground loop and the way the Cambridge and Belden cables are constructed compared to the Spotfire. Means I won't be able to have my transport and pre-amp at chest height which is annoying. Unless I raise the power amp cabinet up somehow, Anyway all a job for next weekend maybe, can't be arsed to do it today and I can't hear the problem from where I listen from even with no music playing.
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Post by macca on Nov 20, 2022 11:54:38 GMT
well hum or not just put on 'LA Woman' and it sounds joke good - you know when from just the first couple of bars you think 'Oh yeah - this is the Sh#t'?
Every tiny bit of the mix is there, not chucked at you like the DCB1 was prone to do, not slightly obscured so you had to listen for it like with the Philips.
Makes for a very involving listen, but relaxing to listen to at the same time.
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 20, 2022 12:39:12 GMT
well hum or not just put on 'LA Woman' and it sounds joke good - you know when from just the first couple of bars you think 'Oh yeah - this is the Sh#t'? Every tiny bit of the mix is there, not chucked at you like the DCB1 was prone to do, not slightly obscured so you had to listen for it like with the Philips. Makes for a very involving listen, but relaxing to listen to at the same time. The BT2 is a great match for any amp. It's should be doing great things with the Krell. Refinement equals relaxed listening, but it's not lacking in dynamic swing or excitement either. I shouldn't talk about it, because I make them lol
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Post by macca on Nov 20, 2022 12:45:07 GMT
Not been disappointed with anything I've listened to yet.
Got 'Use Your Illusion II' on right now and it's stunning. Okay so it's a showcase production but still it's a very busy mix for the equipment to negotiate.
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 20, 2022 13:01:05 GMT
Not been disappointed with anything I've listened to yet. Got 'Use Your Illusion II' on right now and it's stunning. Okay so it's a showcase production but still it's a very busy mix for the equipment to negotiate. That's good news. Usually, If something is gonna fall down, it shows it pretty early IME
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Post by macca on Nov 20, 2022 13:18:35 GMT
Not been disappointed with anything I've listened to yet. Got 'Use Your Illusion II' on right now and it's stunning. Okay so it's a showcase production but still it's a very busy mix for the equipment to negotiate. That's good news. Usually, If something is gonna fall down, it shows it pretty early IME Almost always, yes. I've encountered the odd exception over the years. Usual mistake to make is start testing with Audiophile recordings and then it's not until you get to 'Live And Dangerous' that you realise you actually bought some tat.
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Post by Arke on Nov 20, 2022 21:10:13 GMT
Not been disappointed with anything I've listened to yet. Got 'Use Your Illusion II' on right now and it's stunning. Okay so it's a showcase production but still it's a very busy mix for the equipment to negotiate. Glad to hear you're enjoying it! Sounds like the perfect balance: insightful resolution without becoming fatiguing. I've ordered one too and can't wait. Heard the BT2 in my system and loved what it did.
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Post by pete on Nov 20, 2022 21:26:32 GMT
The BT2 is a fantastic amp. You will, of course, want the Avalon phono stage with it too!😂
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Post by Arke on Nov 20, 2022 21:37:39 GMT
The BT2 is a fantastic amp. You will, of course, want the Avalon phono stage with it too!😂 Naturally, of course Pete. It is the one box BT2/Avalon. I'm v excited.
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Post by pete on Nov 20, 2022 23:04:44 GMT
The BT2 is a fantastic amp. You will, of course, want the Avalon phono stage with it too!😂 Naturally, of course Pete. It is the one box BT2/Avalon. I'm v excited. Very good choice, it is a brilliant piece of equipment that works like a dream, but sounds better, as you know.
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Post by macca on Nov 21, 2022 19:04:11 GMT
Not been disappointed with anything I've listened to yet. Got 'Use Your Illusion II' on right now and it's stunning. Okay so it's a showcase production but still it's a very busy mix for the equipment to negotiate. Glad to hear you're enjoying it! Sounds like the perfect balance: insightful resolution without becoming fatiguing. I've ordered one too and can't wait. Heard the BT2 in my system and loved what it did. I don't think you'll ever need to buy another pre-amp Listening to that Guns n Roses album yesterday it was just wow moment after wow moment. I wasn't getting that with the Philips pre-amp. I did get it with the DCB1 but that would also leave me feeling exhausted afterwards, like I'd actually been at a gig, and so I'd rarely feel like listening to two rock albums in succession.
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Post by macca on Dec 5, 2022 12:43:25 GMT
Update Got rid of the hum. I was using those Cambridge Pacific interconnects from pre to power because they are long enough but one thing always bothered me about those cables is that they have thuddy bass. yes, I know what you're thinking, and you're right, but I've had them about twenty years and anytime I use them I hear it and there's just no getting away from it for me whether it's real or just in my mind. That was bothering me more than the hum. So thought I would swap back to the Belkin cables. In doing so noticed that despite my best efforts to dress the cables, the right hand interconnect from pre to power was literally wrapped around the power cable coming out the back of the amp. How does this happen? I swear the things wriggle about on their own. So put the Belkin cables in and dressed them so they go nowhere near the power cable, and taped them to the back of the unit to hold them in place. And... the hum is gone. Now totally silent even with ear right up against the drivers. So I don't need to rethink and rebuild the rack. Result! Need to revisit that background snare on 'Brothers In Arms' now and see if it still sounds a bit fuzzy. Will get to that after some Curtis Mayfield and report back. In the meantime here's a gratuitous system pic:
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Post by pete on Dec 5, 2022 13:40:14 GMT
Great news macca . It is the law of any wiring that it will tangle itself around anything next to it. And if it is alone it will tangle itself up! Guess this shows cable dressing does have an impact. Talking of impact there is a very precarious pile of cds there!
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Post by robbiegong on Dec 5, 2022 14:17:11 GMT
Update Got rid of the hum. I was using those Cambridge Pacific interconnects from pre to power because they are long enough but one thing always bothered me about those cables is that they have thuddy bass. yes, I know what you're thinking, and you're right, but I've had them about twenty years and anytime I use them I hear it and there's just no getting away from it for me whether it's real or just in my mind. That was bothering me more than the hum. So thought I would swap back to the Belkin cables. In doing so noticed that despite my best efforts to dress the cables, the right hand interconnect from pre to power was literally wrapped around the power cable coming out the back of the amp. How does this happen? I swear the things wriggle about on their own. So put the Belkin cables in and dressed them so they go nowhere near the power cable, and taped them to the back of the unit to hold them in place. And... the hum is gone. Now totally silent even with ear right up against the drivers. So I don't need to rethink and rebuild the rack. Result! Need to revisit that background snare on 'Brothers In Arms' now and see if it still sounds a bit fuzzy. Will get to that after some Curtis Mayfield and report back. In the meantime here's a gratuitous system pic: Exactly Macca
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Post by antonio on Dec 5, 2022 14:27:46 GMT
Looks good macca, pleased you have that hum sorted. I'm sure you've mentioned before, but what's those fancy dan speaker cables you're using?
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Post by macca on Dec 5, 2022 16:04:11 GMT
Guess this shows cable dressing does have an impact. Talking of impact there is a very precarious pile of cds there! yeah I need to sort that out before it goes bad.
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Post by macca on Dec 5, 2022 16:06:49 GMT
Looks good macca , pleased you have that hum sorted. I'm sure you've mentioned before, but what's those fancy dan speaker cables you're using? Bigbottle Spotfire. Was suprised about the hum but like I say the signal cable had somehow wound itself snugly around the power cable, absolute worst-case scenario.
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