|
|
Post by antonio on Dec 10, 2021 12:14:09 GMT
Does the pegasus encourage you to tap your foot? Some may say how is it for PRaT? The DAC has nothing to do with that. PRAT is a function of the loudspeakers, their interaction with the room, and the amplifier's interaction with the loudspeakers. Loudspeakers with deep bass but not properly driven by the amp - no PRAT Room making loudspeakers boomy due to overly slow decay of bass frequencies- no PRAT Crap loudspeakers - no PRAT. Avoid those issues and all DACs will have PRAT - assuming the recording has it to begin with. Substituting a turntable for a dac, my Lenco boogy's along more so than my PT, and that's no slouch, so why not dac's |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 10, 2021 12:15:46 GMT
just a small difference in volume level can change everything, over 80 DACs there's going to be some relatively large variations in output level even if the amplifier is on the same volume setting for all of them.
providing the system can cope with it turning up the level is the second-best way of improving subjective sound quality (having a few drinkies is the best way obvs).
I think it's very possible that could account for the different perceptions of rhythmic drive.
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 10, 2021 12:16:35 GMT
The DAC has nothing to do with that. PRAT is a function of the loudspeakers, their interaction with the room, and the amplifier's interaction with the loudspeakers. Loudspeakers with deep bass but not properly driven by the amp - no PRAT Room making loudspeakers boomy due to overly slow decay of bass frequencies- no PRAT Crap loudspeakers - no PRAT. Avoid those issues and all DACs will have PRAT - assuming the recording has it to begin with. Substituting a turntable for a dac, my Lenco boogy's along more so than my PT, and that's no slouch, so why not dac's because a DAC has nothing in common with a turntable? |
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Dec 10, 2021 12:32:43 GMT
I believe it plays music, they are both the source, there's two things in common.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 14,644
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 10, 2021 12:41:52 GMT
OK, so I have delved deep into the memory files for this subject because I know digital sounds different. So, the M2tech DAC I had AGES ago had speed, dynamics and propulsion, but it couldn't shake off its "digital" sound. No foot tapping, just shed loads of detail and glare in truth. The RPI Allo Boss had all the ability to get you moving, get your foot tapping, get your head bopping. I preferred it to a Chord DAVE in that respect. It had Pace, Rhythm, and Timing, but lacked transparency Pegasus, lacked whatever the Boss had that got me moving in the chair, involuntarily. Holo did well. It had BAGS of detail and the soundstage was very expansive, but the Soekris 1421 seemed to have more of that involuntary movement inducing ability. It lost out in other areas, but for sheer "feels" it was better IMO. The 2541 Does similar to the Holo in terms of detail and soundstage, but it too has you moving , an di think the reason is propulsion. As in how it gets fired out of the speakers. Upon loaning the 1421 to Chris, a comment he made was "the drums REALLY sound like drums" I know exactly what he meant and its all about the propulsion and dynamics. macca is right that speakers can be accountable for this too, but ime it isn't an exclusive trait that can only happen in speakers. Cartridges do it too and so do Phonostages. Even tonearms can affect this feeling, so if that feeling is caused by PRaT, the Pegasus didn't have it. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 10, 2021 13:49:42 GMT
I believe it plays music, they are both the source, there's two things in common. A DAC just converts a varying voltage representing digital data into a varying voltage representing an analogue waveform. A turntable just goes round at (hopefully) a constant speed. It's the cartridge picks up vibrations from a spiral groove and converts them into a varying voltage that represents an analogue waveform. neither is 'playing music' they are just producing a variable voltage over time. That same voltage energises a magnet and moves a driver which moves air. It's only when that air movement is picked up by our ears and analysed by our brain that it becomes 'music.' How they collect and convert that varying voltage could not be more different. Plus a DAC isn't a source component, it's just fed a varying voltage by a source component like a streamer or transport. yes pedantic I know but I find looking at the process that way instead of the 'magic happens' way is far more useful when pursuing better sound quality. I agree that Lencos and other idler-drive decks have more subjective 'drive' than many belt drive decks though even though I'm not that keen on them as turntables overall. |
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,279 
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Dec 10, 2021 13:55:40 GMT
I believe it plays music, they are both the source, there's two things in common. A DAC just converts a varying voltage representing digital data into a varying voltage representing an analogue waveform. A turntable just goes round at (hopefully) a constant speed. It's the cartridge picks up vibrations from a spiral groove and converts them into a varying voltage that represents an analogue waveform. neither is 'playing music' they are just producing a variable voltage over time. That same voltage energises a magnet and moves a driver which moves air. It's only when that air movement is picked up by our ears and analysed by our brain that it becomes 'music.' How they collect and convert that varying voltage could not be more different. Plus a DAC isn't a source component, it's just fed a varying voltage by a source component like a streamer or transport. yes pedantic I know but I find looking at the process that way instead of the 'magic happens' way is far more useful when pursuing better sound quality. I agree that Lencos and other idler-drive decks have more subjective 'drive' than many belt drive decks though even though I'm not that keen on them as turntables overall. Pedantic - diamond on stylus vibrating through grooves is reproducing music before it is amplified to significant voltage. No further process needed at that stage. That's how a gramophone works. Sorry for pedantic-ness |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 10, 2021 13:56:30 GMT
cs. macca is right that speakers can be accountable for this too, but ime it isn't an exclusive trait that can only happen in speakers. Cartridges do it too and so do Phonostages. Even tonearms can affect this feeling, yes fair point with which I agree, but pickups and arms have nothing in common with how a DAC works. Don't agree that a DAC can have more or less 'drive'. Would need to see some sort of technical analysis to convince me of that. Not uncontrolled subjective comparisons since I've done them like we all have and I've not detected any drive issues that way. I mean I had a good listen to the Pegasus at Alan's place and at no point did I think 'Hmm....lacks drive.' And in my own system my leg gets sore from the involuntary foot tapping. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 10, 2021 13:59:14 GMT
A DAC just converts a varying voltage representing digital data into a varying voltage representing an analogue waveform. A turntable just goes round at (hopefully) a constant speed. It's the cartridge picks up vibrations from a spiral groove and converts them into a varying voltage that represents an analogue waveform. neither is 'playing music' they are just producing a variable voltage over time. That same voltage energises a magnet and moves a driver which moves air. It's only when that air movement is picked up by our ears and analysed by our brain that it becomes 'music.' How they collect and convert that varying voltage could not be more different. Plus a DAC isn't a source component, it's just fed a varying voltage by a source component like a streamer or transport. yes pedantic I know but I find looking at the process that way instead of the 'magic happens' way is far more useful when pursuing better sound quality. I agree that Lencos and other idler-drive decks have more subjective 'drive' than many belt drive decks though even though I'm not that keen on them as turntables overall. Pedantic - diamond on stylus vibrating through grooves is reproducing music before it is amplified to significant voltage. No further process needed at that stage. That's how a gramophone works. Sorry for pedantic-ness lol yes fair point. |
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Dec 10, 2021 14:53:38 GMT
Quite happy to level match the volume no problem at all.
SINAD will juts tell how quiet its going to be lol, dynamic range will indicate that its hould cope with complex passgae of music and large transients swings and hopefully those micro dynaic details and spatial layering.
However the AP 555x doensn't pocess a Whippet thrashing dector as far as I am aware.
Most of the dacs I feel offer more life and vitality do have very specific digital filtration curves, and NO they are not all the same by any stretch.
This is a jolly fine Friday afternoon wheeze
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 10, 2021 16:26:41 GMT
I know people think that they can hear the difference between various filters but I think that's all in the mind unless they are very young (which they never are) or the filter is very extreme (which seems to be very rare).
Someone says they can hear differences and even describes the differences and then everyone thinks they can because god-forbid they might be thought by their peers to be undiscriminating or that their system isn't up to it. I mean it's audiophile badges of pride isn't it?
Not saying there is not something in this, always open to some evidence that it's a real 'thing'.
I hear differences same as everybody but if there's no credible reason for them I just assume it's all in my mind until shown it's not.
You can end up wasting a lot of money down a lot of rabbit holes by thinking every perception is real. So better to think the other way by default.
|
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Dec 10, 2021 17:29:33 GMT
Ok I have a fully adjustable perception awaremess filter which I can switch in and out depending on which audio saleman calls to sell product 'x' or 'y' Martin
What I am talking about is NOT the switchable Fast/slow roll over, phase linear or ultra bell end polishing one that makes you feel all happy and warm inside.
I am discussing the they way the synthetic incoming audio data section reciever se up and PLL handles the data stream and how this presents the data to the dac section this is NOT adjustable feature in the vast majority of dacs but a hardware feature programmed into the spartan 6/7 FPGA or similar.
On the filter differenices we can agree in general most make only slight changes for sure, some do have a more significant effect on the sound, although not always a postive one!
A lot of people feel the main differences are in the the final I/V stages that the real game changers are made as if all things are equal the in tehir eyes thats is the only place the real flavours are created.
Well going to totally disagree here, BUT a quality current to voltage stage is essential imho.
The latest fix for those ultra sinad asr testicle ticklers is the nested feed back loop, it delivers a high sinad at the expense of linearity and overall desirability case in point Gustard X26pro with its 'fully discrete' 40W class 'a' stage (not sure what is really under those passive heat sinks but will find out next week, new toy coming industrial x-ray machine)
If you take the same style of desig ESS 38pro chips in differenal, LPS etc and have say the usual OPA 1612's in the multiple configuration and lest say all of the digital circuit was indentical would it sound the same?
Personally I prefer the A22 a much more rounded and even handed approach to the sound, the X26 pro is quite blood and thunder slightly tamed but with not much musical insight fine hifi but not musically satisfying imho.
So lots of facts can and do effect dac performance the biggest one (If the correct design criteria is applied and carefully thought out rather than the next one off the conveyor belt production line in Shuzon city etc) RF contamination/ rail line quietness / total isolation between digital and analogue circutry, correct board spacing, layouts and veer & strip lines placement to reduce aggressor tracks causing issues.
It really isn't difficult to design a dac that measures all asr jizz fest incorporated, however its a different matter to product a dac that customers are very happy with and will keep it as a long term listening prospect not box swapping to eternity.
Make zero mistake they do all sound quite different. Even on a Benchmark AHb2 amplifier and studio monitors which theorectically should be the best available (lol) Its all about how the data is used, signal integrity is protected and how the DESIGNER wishes it to sound imho
|
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Dec 10, 2021 22:48:55 GMT
When talking about drive, does this mean the same to everyone as PRaT, ie in the sense of Naim amps?
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 11, 2021 8:52:33 GMT
Ok I have a fully adjustable perception awaremess filter which I can switch in and out depending on which audio saleman calls to sell product 'x' or 'y' Martin What I am talking about is NOT the switchable Fast/slow roll over, phase linear or ultra bell end polishing one that makes you feel all happy and warm inside. I am discussing the they way the synthetic incoming audio data section reciever se up and PLL handles the data stream and how this presents the data to the dac section this is NOT adjustable feature in the vast majority of dacs but a hardware feature programmed into the spartan 6/7 FPGA or similar. On the filter differenices we can agree in general most make only slight changes for sure, some do have a more significant effect on the sound, although not always a postive one! A lot of people feel the main differences are in the the final I/V stages that the real game changers are made as if all things are equal the in tehir eyes thats is the only place the real flavours are created. Well going to totally disagree here, BUT a quality current to voltage stage is essential imho. The latest fix for those ultra sinad asr testicle ticklers is the nested feed back loop, it delivers a high sinad at the expense of linearity and overall desirability case in point Gustard X26pro with its 'fully discrete' 40W class 'a' stage (not sure what is really under those passive heat sinks but will find out next week, new toy coming industrial x-ray machine) If you take the same style of desig ESS 38pro chips in differenal, LPS etc and have say the usual OPA 1612's in the multiple configuration and lest say all of the digital circuit was indentical would it sound the same? Personally I prefer the A22 a much more rounded and even handed approach to the sound, the X26 pro is quite blood and thunder slightly tamed but with not much musical insight fine hifi but not musically satisfying imho. So lots of facts can and do effect dac performance the biggest one (If the correct design criteria is applied and carefully thought out rather than the next one off the conveyor belt production line in Shuzon city etc) RF contamination/ rail line quietness / total isolation between digital and analogue circutry, correct board spacing, layouts and veer & strip lines placement to reduce aggressor tracks causing issues. It really isn't difficult to design a dac that measures all asr jizz fest incorporated, however its a different matter to product a dac that customers are very happy with and will keep it as a long term listening prospect not box swapping to eternity. Make zero mistake they do all sound quite different. Even on a Benchmark AHb2 amplifier and studio monitors which theorectically should be the best available (lol) Its all about how the data is used, signal integrity is protected and how the DESIGNER wishes it to sound imho Tony - if two DACs sound different - and they can I'm not saying they all sound identical - then it can be measured. ASR - since you do keep bringing that site up for some reason - do measure linearity along with several other parameters, so any sacrifice in linearity will be shown. They don't just measure SINAD and no-one at ASR thinks SINAD is the only measure of anything. As you know there is only a limited amount by which a DAC designer can change the sound since the DAC has to do a fundamental job of voltage conversion which if it is wrong will sound very strange indeed. Therefore the differences between DACs can at best be very small. Whether these tiny differences actually matter to someone is entirely personal and subjective. But let's not pretend that the differences are of the same magnitude as a loudspeaker, or a pickup cartridge even. They are not and can not be. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 11, 2021 9:03:45 GMT
When talking about drive, does this mean the same to everyone as PRaT, ie in the sense of Naim amps? that's the trouble with these subjective terms, they mean different things to everyone. PRAT originally was a combination of a certain turntable, amp and speakers. The TT had a bass lift that gave a propulsive sound, the amp had a particular distortion signature, the speakers had no real bass and a midrange hump. All these things combined to give a fast, exciting sound, but as with any system that is far from accurate this enhanced some music and made other music unlistenable. It was a system favoured by those chasing the 'sounds like a live performance' thing. How that expression is used today probably means a lot of different things to everyone. For me if the music has pace and drive the system should not sit on that. But it should not add its own pace and drive like the old Lp12 / Naim Nait / Kan* system did. Not unless you want to start obsessing about 'recording quality' and listening to a couple of dozen albums that sound good to the exclusion of all else. (*Epos ES14 were a permitted substitute for the Kans, as were Heybrook HB2). |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 14,644
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 11, 2021 9:11:13 GMT
Ok I have a fully adjustable perception awaremess filter which I can switch in and out depending on which audio saleman calls to sell product 'x' or 'y' Martin What I am talking about is NOT the switchable Fast/slow roll over, phase linear or ultra bell end polishing one that makes you feel all happy and warm inside. I am discussing the they way the synthetic incoming audio data section reciever se up and PLL handles the data stream and how this presents the data to the dac section this is NOT adjustable feature in the vast majority of dacs but a hardware feature programmed into the spartan 6/7 FPGA or similar. On the filter differenices we can agree in general most make only slight changes for sure, some do have a more significant effect on the sound, although not always a postive one! A lot of people feel the main differences are in the the final I/V stages that the real game changers are made as if all things are equal the in tehir eyes thats is the only place the real flavours are created. Well going to totally disagree here, BUT a quality current to voltage stage is essential imho. The latest fix for those ultra sinad asr testicle ticklers is the nested feed back loop, it delivers a high sinad at the expense of linearity and overall desirability case in point Gustard X26pro with its 'fully discrete' 40W class 'a' stage (not sure what is really under those passive heat sinks but will find out next week, new toy coming industrial x-ray machine) If you take the same style of desig ESS 38pro chips in differenal, LPS etc and have say the usual OPA 1612's in the multiple configuration and lest say all of the digital circuit was indentical would it sound the same? Personally I prefer the A22 a much more rounded and even handed approach to the sound, the X26 pro is quite blood and thunder slightly tamed but with not much musical insight fine hifi but not musically satisfying imho. So lots of facts can and do effect dac performance the biggest one (If the correct design criteria is applied and carefully thought out rather than the next one off the conveyor belt production line in Shuzon city etc) RF contamination/ rail line quietness / total isolation between digital and analogue circutry, correct board spacing, layouts and veer & strip lines placement to reduce aggressor tracks causing issues. It really isn't difficult to design a dac that measures all asr jizz fest incorporated, however its a different matter to product a dac that customers are very happy with and will keep it as a long term listening prospect not box swapping to eternity. Make zero mistake they do all sound quite different. Even on a Benchmark AHb2 amplifier and studio monitors which theorectically should be the best available (lol) Its all about how the data is used, signal integrity is protected and how the DESIGNER wishes it to sound imho Tony - if two DACs sound different - and they can I'm not saying they all sound identical - then it can be measured. how? |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 11, 2021 9:20:25 GMT
How?
Because recorded music is just an electrical signal which by definition can only have frequency, magnitude and phase. All those parameters can be measured to the smallest degree.
You might want to argue that there are as yet undiscovered properties of an electrical signal. That's not impossible but it is highly improbable. it's even more improbable that such a massive scientific breakthrough could be made in the living room of an audiophile instead of in a lab at MIT or somewhere similar.
Why else do you think that theoretical physicists are not all over hi-fi like a rash, looking for their Nobel Prizes?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2021 9:31:44 GMT
Why else do you think that theoretical physicists are not all over hi-fi like a rash, looking for their Nobel Prizes? Because they have better/more important things to do, unlike us. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 14,644
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 11, 2021 9:40:00 GMT
How? Because recorded music is just an electrical signal which by definition can only have frequency, magnitude and phase. All those parameters can be measured to the smallest degree.You might want to argue that there are as yet undiscovered properties of an electrical signal. That's not impossible but it is highly improbable. it's even more improbable that such a massive scientific breakthrough could be made in the living room of an audiophile instead of in a lab at MIT or somewhere similar. Why else do you think that theoretical physicists are not all over hi-fi like a rash, looking for their Nobel Prizes? Yeah, but you arent measuring the "recorded music" you are measuring absolutely everything in the DAC at the output, ie the The Power suppy, the capacitor choices, the PSU filter, the RF...absolutely everything in that box. The measurements at the end are the accumulation of everything in it. When i build BB3's and swap the coupling caps, it makes absolutely no difference to the measurements i get. The SNR, the RIAA, the Distortion....all within a tight tolerance REGARDLESS of what decoupling caps i use. I can change valves and again, the signal and overall performance of the unit is within that same performance tolerance, yet if you change the caps or the valves, the unit can sound hugely different. Same with the input and output wiring. If i use Silver Vs OFC copper, there is a difference in the sound, but not in the measured performance of the unit. The measurements do not tell you how something will sound. They may give you a "top 3 measuring phonostage/DAC" on the ASR performance table, using specially selected measurable parameters, but the actual sound of the unit, no....they don't, and cant do that. If they could, they would. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 11, 2021 9:51:38 GMT
Why else do you think that theoretical physicists are not all over hi-fi like a rash, looking for their Nobel Prizes? Because they have better/more important things to do, unlike us. They have more important things to do than winning a Nobel for discovering an entirely new physical parameter of electricity? No I don't think they do. I have a mate who is a physicist, had a number of degrees and higher degrees, listens to lectures on quantum mechanics in the car. He would laugh at some of the things I used to come out with about hi-fi. He was right to do so. if you just take power cables alone some of the stuff the makers come out with, if it were true. would revolutionise physics. Physicists are not interested in investigating it because they already know it's complete bollocks. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 11, 2021 10:02:29 GMT
How? Because recorded music is just an electrical signal which by definition can only have frequency, magnitude and phase. All those parameters can be measured to the smallest degree.You might want to argue that there are as yet undiscovered properties of an electrical signal. That's not impossible but it is highly improbable. it's even more improbable that such a massive scientific breakthrough could be made in the living room of an audiophile instead of in a lab at MIT or somewhere similar. Why else do you think that theoretical physicists are not all over hi-fi like a rash, looking for their Nobel Prizes? Yeah, but you arent measuring the "recorded music" you are measuring absolutely everything in the DAC at the output, ie the The Power suppy, the capacitor choices, the PSU filter, the RF...absolutely everything in that box. The measurements at the end are the accumulation of everything in it. When i build BB3's and swap the coupling caps, it makes absolutely no difference to the measurements i get. The SNR, the RIAA, the Distortion....all within a tight tolerance REGARDLESS of what decoupling caps i use. I can change valves and again, the signal and overall performance of the unit is within that same performance tolerance, yet if you change the caps or the valves, the unit can sound hugely different. Same with the input and output wiring. If i use Silver Vs OFC copper, there is a difference in the sound, but not in the measured performance of the unit. The measurements do not tell you how something will sound. They may give you a "top 3 measuring phonostage/DAC" on the ASR performance table, using specially selected measurable parameters, but the actual sound of the unit, no....they don't, and cant do that. If they could, they would. No, what you mean is they sound different to you, listening sighted with no controls. Also you don't have the equipment to measure exactly enough so you can't claim they measure the same in any case. If they measure identical they will sound identical under controlled listening conditionsif not then either you didn't measure right or the listening condition controls were not sufficient. if you could really identify reliably, in controlled testing, between two devices where the only difference was the wiring was silver in one and OFC copper in the other then you would have made a significant scientific breakthrough which no-one else to date has discovered. How likely do you think that is to be the case? level match, and compare blind with controls, the differences will vanish. I guarantee it. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 14,644
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 11, 2021 10:15:29 GMT
Yeah, but you arent measuring the "recorded music" you are measuring absolutely everything in the DAC at the output, ie the The Power suppy, the capacitor choices, the PSU filter, the RF...absolutely everything in that box. The measurements at the end are the accumulation of everything in it. When i build BB3's and swap the coupling caps, it makes absolutely no difference to the measurements i get. The SNR, the RIAA, the Distortion....all within a tight tolerance REGARDLESS of what decoupling caps i use. I can change valves and again, the signal and overall performance of the unit is within that same performance tolerance, yet if you change the caps or the valves, the unit can sound hugely different. Same with the input and output wiring. If i use Silver Vs OFC copper, there is a difference in the sound, but not in the measured performance of the unit. The measurements do not tell you how something will sound. They may give you a "top 3 measuring phonostage/DAC" on the ASR performance table, using specially selected measurable parameters, but the actual sound of the unit, no....they don't, and cant do that. If they could, they would. If they measure identical they will sound identical under controlled listening conditionsif not then either you didn't measure right or the listening condition controls were not sufficient. if you could really identify reliably, in controlled testing, between two devices where the only difference was the wiring was silver in one and OFC copper in the other then you would have made a significant scientific breakthrough which no-one else to date has discovered. How likely do you think that is to be the case? level match, and compare blind with controls, the differences will vanish. I guarantee it. No, i am telling you that they sound different, because they quite clearly do. Regardless, what i have said is 100% true. You are not measuring music, you are measuring the output performance of a device. That device, depending on how it's made, topology, components used, the Power supply, wiring...EVERYTHING, may throw out similar measurments to other devices, but that does not mean it will sound the same. |
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,279
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Dec 11, 2021 10:20:22 GMT
Me thinks ASR brickwall filter is engaged.
The amount of people who test different DACs before they buy them to ascertain that they do sound different aren't all stupid.
Some of them yes....
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 11, 2021 10:24:28 GMT
It's possible they really do sound different , and if they do that will reflect in the measurements. If it doesn't then they don't regardless of whether we perceive that they do or not. if we compare without controls then we bring along a whole load of baggage that will dictate what we perceive. Just knowing we changed X or Y will alter what we hear and that can create a significant difference in what we hear. The brain does not just use the sole input of the sound waves hitting the ears when it creates a perception. We can trust our ears but we can't trust out brains  Short article about bias in audio perception here with references - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5016825/ |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 11, 2021 10:28:09 GMT
Me thinks ASR brickwall filter is engaged. The amount of people who test different DACs before they buy them to ascertain that they do sound different aren't all stupid. Some of them yes.... No they are not stupid but they either do not know, or they do not accept, that their perception does not equal reality. Obviously in some cases they really will sound different. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 11, 2021 11:23:06 GMT
listening to 'Psychadelic Furs' first album via Topping E30 - just noticed that foot is tapping like a bastard bet I would not have to look far to find someone who will say 'Topping E30 has no drive' |
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,279
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Dec 11, 2021 11:34:13 GMT
listening to 'Psychadelic Furs' first album via Topping E30 - just noticed that foot is tapping like a bastard bet I would not have to look far to find someone who will say 'Topping E30 has no drive' Don't disagree it's not a bad DAC when paired with decent equipment (like yours) but there's a lot of DACs which are way more musical and fun to listen to (which measure a lot worse!!). Soncoz is miles ahead on my system though, especially using AES input |
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,279
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Dec 11, 2021 11:38:16 GMT
macca swap the Soncoz in use coax input and the 'FAM' filter and tell me the bass is not improved!!
|
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Dec 11, 2021 12:06:49 GMT
It's possible they really do sound different , and if they do that will reflect in the measurements. If it doesn't then they don't regardless of whether we perceive that they do or not. No no no no. The measurements are using sine waves or multi discrete frequency inputs to 'represent' music. IMHO that representation is fatally flawed, music has a flow and rhythm that cannot be assessed with test tones. Music will reveal differences in the overall sound, test tones not. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 11, 2021 13:28:16 GMT
macca swap the Soncoz in use coax input and the 'FAM' filter and tell me the bass is not improved!! I've compared all the filters on the Soncoz before, with both optical and coax and with balanced to single ended and single ended interconnects. And different transports. I can go back to it if you want though. Think I mentioned before though - your speaker system with those subs has one, possibly two more octaves of bass than mine so if I don't hear any difference then that could be the reason. Also if I do hear a difference it could be just because you've now cued me to hear it... I'll try and remember to put the Soncoz in tomorrow before I start the Sunday session. I already got going for today. Just listening to 'Montrose' right now, sounds superb as did the previous four albums I've had on today. Just got zero desire to tinker, upgrade or in any way cock about with this set up as it is now. It's exactly right - for me anyway. What number filter is the FAM? |
|
