Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 12, 2021 14:01:38 GMT
Martin I do not feel that the established understanding is incorrect in the way we phyiscal layer test, but more over in what are the relevent tests that would indicate what product 'x' sounds different from product 'y'.
Paul would never ignore anecdotal evidence, although he would not give it the credence as graphs and measurments UNTIL he had invetsigating. He thoughts were this, if enough totally independant observations were made and similar finidngs were reported he felt it wouldwarrant further investigation.
You mentioned linearity test for dac's, I suggested for the latets crop of r2r dsp controlled dacs they are quite significant differenices especially between the 44.1 and 48Khz smaple derivities, now whether this is due to these dacs have sperate ladders for each set of sample frequencies or swiyching in of multipule ladders, dsp is used the even out the freqency responses.
Below the Musicain Pegasus dac 48Khz linearity plot @ 48Kz, the second image is indentical setting of the Rhode & Schwartz UPV but this time @ 44.1Khz, you can cleary see the DSP at work there.
Last Image is of one of the stock Wadia 15's from 1994 linearity curve is very respecable indeed, which one sounds better based on thoose graps, the Pegasus has around another 10dBm lower noise floor, so you would expect graeter micro dynamics and a darker background to the music. the figures are 116s/n for the wadia dn 127s/n for the Pegasus. Listening delivers a totally different story. One has much more utterly definable ryhtymic drive and natural pace, the other is quite flat and linear with a much more resevered and laid back sound.
Pegasus 48Khz linearity plot
Pegasus 44.1Khz linearity plot
Wadia 15 linearity plot 44.1Khz
Lastly the Soekris 2541 linearity plot 44.1Khz
Pretty sure you can find plenty more of the plots oof Golden Sound and asr Martin
The Soekris does OK there |
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Dec 12, 2021 14:05:04 GMT
Martin I do not feel that the established understanding is incorrect in the way we phyiscal layer test, but more over in what are the relevent tests that would indicate what product 'x' sounds different from product 'y'.
Paul would never ignore anecdotal evidence, although he would not give it the credence as graphs and measurments UNTIL he had invetsigating. He thoughts were this, if enough totally independant observations were made and similar finidngs were reported he felt it wouldwarrant further investigation.
You mentioned linearity test for dac's, I suggested for the latets crop of r2r dsp controlled dacs they are quite significant differenices especially between the 44.1 and 48Khz smaple derivities, now whether this is due to these dacs have sperate ladders for each set of sample frequencies or swiyching in of multipule ladders, dsp is used the even out the freqency responses.
Below the Musicain Pegasus dac 48Khz linearity plot @ 48Kz, the second image is indentical setting of the Rhode & Schwartz UPV but this time @ 44.1Khz, you can cleary see the DSP at work there.
Last Image is of one of the stock Wadia 15's from 1994 linearity curve is very respecable indeed, which one sounds better based on thoose graps, the Pegasus has around another 10dBm lower noise floor, so you would expect graeter micro dynamics and a darker background to the music. the figures are 116s/n for the wadia dn 127s/n for the Pegasus. Listening delivers a totally different story. One has much more utterly definable ryhtymic drive and natural pace, the other is quite flat and linear with a much more resevered and laid back sound.
The Soekris does OK there As I infer from Tony's post, that is more of a happy happenstance than an indicator of a musically good DAC... which by all accounts the Soekris qualifies. |
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Dec 12, 2021 14:10:39 GMT
Its not conclusive Bruce but I feel its a good indicator
|
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Dec 12, 2021 18:10:52 GMT
This Is relevant to what Alan (Firebottle) mentioned a few pages ago in relation to looking at specific frequencies when testing say dacs or amps. usually the dac (D2A test involves a J-test for jitter and a single 1Khz sine wave at various sample rates by a high-quality signal generator contained withn the audio analyser which is set at a very specific amplitude (level)) Which delivers a very pure and accurate (in relation to most test equipment function generators anyway!). The SG I am using has an accuracy of 0.1 Hz and you can see the average drift is 94 millihertz. However, music is made up of very complex patterns of frequencies, the number of actual signals (tracks, for example 1 bass guitar/one synthesizer, a singers, Lead and possibly rhythm guitar. Plus they maybe double tracking on the bass etc, and multiple vocal and guitar layering so you may have well over 20+ individual tracks contained within that one song plus again various amplitudes on each of those tracks. So earlier I made some illustrations of a very accurate 1Khz 2V Rms sine wave (which is around 5.7V peak to peak btw) this is the industry standard for single ended (Rca opertaion on a line level analogue output) I have left the statists on so you can see around 3 thousand samples were taken at the point of the image capture and the parameters are clearly marked for you. The second image is of real music playing via a dvd player I use in the lab for testing its being measured by the RCA analogue outputs no viable volume control is available on this unit. This the La Bodega by the Fun Loving criminals As you can see they are very different in composition, now what Alan was suggesting is that music is totally different perceptually when compared again a single sine wave output when level matched due to the very complex nature of music signals.
They maybe more at work hear than a simple SINAD/signal to noise ration/linearity/Implse response and J-testing etc. As I have mentioned before I take a two-pronged approach to all audio electronics modelling/testing and measurements really help in conceptual design and product creation, but also in 'seeing' how other products are positioned and targeting specific market points. The other is absolutely listening and refining to achieve that desired finished sonic presentation.
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 13, 2021 7:42:12 GMT
Gentleman, I'm just going to point out that yet again, another thread has descended into another bore-fest of arguing about measurements. As I mentioned the other day, it's boring the bollocks off me, so I'm going to tidy this thread up and kindly remind all that if you want to discuss/contemplate/argue/ about measurements, either start a thread elsewhere on the forum, or preferably take the option of accepting that folk hear what they hear and that's what matters. I am entire encouraging of having a separate thread on such matters. The original question that prompted this discussion was 'Does the Pegasus have foot-tapping ability?' which naturally led to a discussion of whether or not that is something a DAC can even have. So to my mind it was all totally relevant to the o/p's question. How can a DAC affect what we hear? Very hard to talk about that in nay meaningful or useful way without talking about measured performance. I think the reason such questions get asked in the first place is indicative of how dumbed-down hi-fi mags and forums are. No-one wants to talk about the stuff that actually matters, instead it's a poetry class interspersed with a few banalities like 'We all hear differently' and 'Trust your ears'. oh well. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 13, 2021 7:50:22 GMT
Gentleman, I'm just going to point out that yet again, another thread has descended into another bore-fest of arguing about measurements. As I mentioned the other day, it's boring the bollocks off me, so I'm going to tidy this thread up and kindly remind all that if you want to discuss/contemplate/argue/ about measurements, either start a thread elsewhere on the forum, or preferably take the option of accepting that folk hear what they hear and that's what matters. I am entire encouraging of having a separate thread on such matters. The original question that prompted this discussion was 'Does the Pegasus have foot-tapping ability?' which naturally led to a discussion of whether or not that is something a DAC can even have. So to my mind it was all totally relevant to the o/p's question. How can a DAC affect what we hear? Very hard to talk about that in nay meaningful or useful way without talking about measured performance. I think the reason such questions get asked in the first place is indicative of how dumbed-down hi-fi mags and forums are. No-one wants to talk about the stuff that actually matters, instead it's a poetry class interspersed with a few banalities like 'We all hear differently' and 'Trust your ears'. oh well. Yeah the foot tapping and PRaT stuff was all fine, but then we descended into measurements, graphs and all that stuff. Which I enjoy, btw....just don't think we need to be having the same discussion on every thread where digital kit is mentioned. If the theoretical or scientific measurements on sonic performance between kit is what folks want to discuss, then I think that's best on a separate thread ..so I started this one. I may have over trimmed the Pegasus thread, but I had to start somewhere. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 13, 2021 8:11:38 GMT
There's lots of threads on this forum where discussion of measurements is relevant but there is no discussion since it is just someone giving thelr own impression of what they heard. Might be a cable, phono stage or whatever.
But in the case of the Pegasus thread the o/p asked a direct question which warranted bringing up the subject i.e = what is it in what a DAC does that can make it foot-tapping - or not?
It would be good if such questions could be answered intelligently and with real information. I started reading audio forums back in 2009 because I had come to realise that there was no useful information in the magazines that would help me improve my system. Regrettably most of the forums were and still are just the same as the mags.
I do appreciate that you at least allow the discussion of how devices actually work though, just shame that you think it needs to be in some sort of separate ghetto as though it isn't relevant when the reality is that it's the only thing that is relevant to improving sound quality/getting the sound you want.
Anyway just my thoughts, not interested in starting another argument/discussion.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Dec 13, 2021 8:33:59 GMT
There's lots of threads on this forum where discussion of measurements is relevant but there is no discussion since it is just someone giving thelr own impression of what they heard. Might be a cable, phono stage or whatever. But in the case of the Pegasus thread the o/p asked a direct question which warranted bringing up the subject i.e = what is it in what a DAC does that can make it foot-tapping - or not? It would be good if such questions could be answered intelligently and with real information. I started reading audio forums back in 2009 because I had come to realise that there was no useful information in the magazines that would help me improve my system. Regrettably most of the forums were and still are just the same as the mags. I do appreciate that you at least allow the discussion of how devices actually work though, just shame that you think it needs to be in some sort of separate ghetto as though it isn't relevant when the reality is that it's the only thing that is relevant to improving sound quality/getting the sound you want. Anyway just my thoughts, not interested in starting another argument/discussion. I value your thoughts and am happy to have the discussion! The trouble is, measurements and science is all very interesting, but not very interesting to all. I notice a distinct "withdrawal of interest" from some members in threads when they hit the point of technical jargon, but an increase in interest from others, so my thinking was that maybe by separating the technical from the anecdotal, there would be room for everyone to discuss the things that they want to, and hopefully make the forum a bit more involving to the general audiophile. Ideally, this thread should be called "Can a DAC affect PRaT" or something similar, but I was under the cosh last night so just made a few preliminary moves. It'll make sense when it develops from an idea Into actuality |
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623 
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Dec 13, 2021 11:25:37 GMT
macca swap the Soncoz in use coax input and the 'FAM' filter and tell me the bass is not improved! What number filter is the FAM? Apologies for late reply macca minimum phase fast roll off filter (FAM) (number 3) (I can hear the difference without the subs on to be fair, although obviously not as pronounced). |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 13, 2021 12:00:45 GMT
Okay I will give it a try. I think that was the filter I was using originally until I got around to flipping through them to see if there was any change.
Can you suggest a recording (that I might have) that would highlight the difference?
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Dec 13, 2021 12:06:20 GMT
Okay I will give it a try. I think that was the filter I was using originally until I got around to flipping through them to see if there was any change. Can you suggest a recording (that I might have) that would highlight the difference? Dire Straits - 6 Blade Knife (Dire Straits remastered) Steely Dan - My Rival (Gaucho) But various tracks on both those wonderful albums to be fair. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 13, 2021 12:13:44 GMT
Got both of those so no issues there. I will have a play when I knock off work.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Dec 13, 2021 12:17:14 GMT
Got both of those so no issues there. I will have a play when I knock off work. You'll be listening for it now so you'll definitely hear it (or won't!) haha. Could double un/subconsciously bias yourself negatively . . . . I'd imagine your Focal's will reveal a difference if there, it's not just how much lower the Soncoz goes (compared to the Topping) but the 'impact' of the lower registers in general. Just in my experience of course. EDIT - FYI I also quite like filter number 5 (2 on from the "FAM") for bass 'impact'. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 13, 2021 13:14:32 GMT
wait - so should I be hearing this difference between filters on the Soncoz, or just between the Topping and the Soncoz on filter 3?
If it's the latter I'm not going to hear it unless it's obvious since subtle differences are forgotten in the time it takes to swap the DACs over.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Dec 13, 2021 13:20:52 GMT
wait - so should I be hearing this difference between filters on the Soncoz, or just between the Topping and the Soncoz on filter 3? If it's the latter I'm not going to hear it unless it's obvious since subtle differences are forgotten in the time it takes to swap the DACs over. Initially the filters on the Soncoz (where as I've mentioned 3 and 5 seem to have the 'most' bass) but ultimately when swapping the Topping for the Soncoz it's really not hard to KNOW that the bass has more impact with the Soncoz. Forget level matching etc even if I'm listening to the Soncoz more quietly than the Topping DB-wise, you can feel the bass a lot more even without the subs. You may not find this of course, it may be that my room is reinforcing certain parts which is more apparent with the Soncoz but in a bigger room or one which has less reinforcement (booming etc) it may not be as apparent. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 13, 2021 13:41:02 GMT
I've got no means to level match anyway. I don't know if the output levels are different on the two DACs. Maybe I don't listen at high enough levels for this to become apparent? Everyone who comes round seems to want gig-levels, I very rarely have it cranked up that much. I shall report back later  |
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,623
Member is Online
|
Post by optical on Dec 13, 2021 13:53:08 GMT
I've got no means to level match anyway. I don't know if the output levels are different on the two DACs. Maybe I don't listen at high enough levels for this to become apparent? Everyone who comes round seems to want gig-levels, I very rarely have it cranked up that much. I shall report back later Certainly a factor - I agree at what is a 'reasonable' listening level (but what may be a bit low/quiet for some) differences are a lot harder to discern. I find quite a lot of music to sound quite flat unless I crank it (a little bit) as the 686 is fairly powerful and the Logan's are meant to be driven with high watts and fairly high current, because my room is a bit small for them they rarely reach their dynamic potential, if ever. That's what I get for cramming giant speakers in a relatively small area . . . . again, haha. BUT . . . . but . . sometimes at exactly the right volume for the music they completely fill every inch with sound along with completely disappearing themselves, well worth the trade off in my opinion. |
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Dec 13, 2021 18:47:39 GMT
I'm a fan of a good multitone imd test for separating bad dacs from others. If it can manage -130db with a 32 tone test it's doing something right.
Of course thetes some dacs that can't that still sound good as we're very good at ignoring aberrations within a moderately tight frequency band.
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Dec 14, 2021 8:49:18 GMT
got sidetracked last night, was knackered anyway so probably not the best state to be doing critical comparisons.
|
|
