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Post by optical on Nov 26, 2021 11:07:49 GMT
Hi Chaps, not quite sure if this is "Digital sources" or "Cables" etc . . . . anyway. I've heard there can be some advantages to converting the balanced signal from a DAC for example, to a single ended output. Sometimes this is necessary if using the balanced signal and your pre-amp/amp only has SE inputs but there are a few (and I can see their logic) whom argue that if the signal is balanced to begin with there is degradation within the DAC's own inferior circuit to convert the signal into SE before it reaches the DAC's SE outputs. There are active and passive routes (personally I would assume passive with high quality components would be the way to go) and there is a thread dedicated to the construction of said device, which gets quite in-depth regarding design/construction and eventually manufacture and selling of such devices. www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/balanced-to-single-ended-converter-xlr-to-rca-bal-to-se.9506/I've also come across these kind of things on ebay (I wonder if it works in reverse??) I would have thought this could be built for a fair amount less outlay but the case does look lovely to be fair. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265210091032?hash=item3dbfc0d618:g:uQ8AAOSwCrRg1dE0I wouldn't have thought maintaining maximum sonic quality is the main objective of this device but another option here: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265339374862?hash=item3dc7758d0e:g:GsoAAOSw0YhhIS6oMy issue is that my current pre-amp only 'converts' the balanced signal with a rudimentary resistor in series of a circuit and isn't 'balanced' as such. One of these devices would allow me to take the higher quality balanced signal and retain the SQ into the single ended inputs of my preamp. Anyone else ever come across this or have any thoughts on the issue? Or want to build me one to try for a good price and a bit of fun!! Haha. Cheers guys. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 26, 2021 11:26:07 GMT
Hi Chaps, not quite sure if this is "Digital sources" or "Cables" etc . . . . anyway. I've heard there can be some advantages to converting the balanced signal from a DAC for example, to a single ended output. Sometimes this is necessary if using the balanced signal and your pre-amp/amp only has SE inputs but there are a few (and I can see their logic) whom argue that if the signal is balanced to begin with there is degradation within the DAC's own inferior circuit to convert the signal into SE before it reaches the DAC's SE outputs. There are active and passive routes (personally I would assume passive with high quality components would be the way to go) and there is a thread dedicated to the construction of said device, which gets quite in-depth regarding design/construction and eventually manufacture and selling of such devices. www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/balanced-to-single-ended-converter-xlr-to-rca-bal-to-se.9506/I've also come across these kind of things on ebay (I wonder if it works in reverse??) I would have thought this could be built for a fair amount less outlay but the case does look lovely to be fair. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265210091032?hash=item3dbfc0d618:g:uQ8AAOSwCrRg1dE0I wouldn't have thought maintaining maximum sonic quality is the main objective of this device but another option here: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265339374862?hash=item3dc7758d0e:g:GsoAAOSw0YhhIS6oMy issue is that my current pre-amp only 'converts' the balanced signal with a rudimentary resistor in series of a circuit and isn't 'balanced' as such. One of these devices would allow me to take the higher quality balanced signal and retain the SQ into the single ended inputs of my preamp. Anyone else ever come across this or have any thoughts on the issue? Or want to build me one to try for a good price and a bit of fun!! Haha. Cheers guys. Why not adapt the cable itself and remove all the extra connections and wiring those devices would create? |
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optical
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Post by optical on Nov 26, 2021 11:29:19 GMT
Hi Chaps, not quite sure if this is "Digital sources" or "Cables" etc . . . . anyway. I've heard there can be some advantages to converting the balanced signal from a DAC for example, to a single ended output. Sometimes this is necessary if using the balanced signal and your pre-amp/amp only has SE inputs but there are a few (and I can see their logic) whom argue that if the signal is balanced to begin with there is degradation within the DAC's own inferior circuit to convert the signal into SE before it reaches the DAC's SE outputs. There are active and passive routes (personally I would assume passive with high quality components would be the way to go) and there is a thread dedicated to the construction of said device, which gets quite in-depth regarding design/construction and eventually manufacture and selling of such devices. www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/balanced-to-single-ended-converter-xlr-to-rca-bal-to-se.9506/I've also come across these kind of things on ebay (I wonder if it works in reverse??) I would have thought this could be built for a fair amount less outlay but the case does look lovely to be fair. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265210091032?hash=item3dbfc0d618:g:uQ8AAOSwCrRg1dE0I wouldn't have thought maintaining maximum sonic quality is the main objective of this device but another option here: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265339374862?hash=item3dc7758d0e:g:GsoAAOSw0YhhIS6oMy issue is that my current pre-amp only 'converts' the balanced signal with a rudimentary resistor in series of a circuit and isn't 'balanced' as such. One of these devices would allow me to take the higher quality balanced signal and retain the SQ into the single ended inputs of my preamp. Anyone else ever come across this or have any thoughts on the issue? Or want to build me one to try for a good price and a bit of fun!! Haha. Cheers guys. Why not adapt the cable itself and remove all the extra connections and wiring those devices would create? I think the design requires a transformer to really 'step down' the voltage/signal correctly doesn't it? Balanced is usually 4v+ and unbalanced 2 or below. Might overload the inputs on some devices? I don't really know. If there's an easier/simpler way I'd be all for it. Some nice copper XLR plugs, a couple of quality resistors, bit of OCC cable with copper RCA on the end? Bob is uncle perhaps? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 26, 2021 11:53:00 GMT
Why not adapt the cable itself and remove all the extra connections and wiring those devices would create? I think the design requires a transformer to really 'step down' the voltage/signal correctly doesn't it? Balanced is usually 4v+ and unbalanced 2 or below. Might overload the inputs on some devices? I don't really know. If there's an easier/simpler way I'd be all for it. Some nice copper XLR plugs, a couple of quality resistors, bit of OCC cable with copper RCA on the end? Bob is uncle perhaps? Well, yeah there's the voltage issue bit in reality it's not a big issue. I've made them before with just a few lengths of OCC and a plug or socket at either end. Worked fine for experiments |
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Post by optical on Nov 26, 2021 11:58:10 GMT
I think the design requires a transformer to really 'step down' the voltage/signal correctly doesn't it? Balanced is usually 4v+ and unbalanced 2 or below. Might overload the inputs on some devices? I don't really know. If there's an easier/simpler way I'd be all for it. Some nice copper XLR plugs, a couple of quality resistors, bit of OCC cable with copper RCA on the end? Bob is uncle perhaps? Well, yeah there's the voltage issue bit in reality it's not a big issue. I've made them before with just a few lengths of OCC and a plug or socket at either end. Worked fine for experiments Nice, I have some more of those monosaudio plugs coming so should be able to do something with them. Cheers |
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Post by sq225917 on Nov 26, 2021 12:00:48 GMT
There's no voltage issue if you use xlr to se cables. The higher voltage on xlr comes from the difference between + and -. If you convert xlr to se your driving - to gnd so the voltage halves, same as the se outputs in almost every case.
I'm not aware of any dac where the se outputs are disadvantaged beyond the reduction in snr from the higher voltage available on the xlr, so it's a zero sum game.
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Post by optical on Nov 26, 2021 12:03:10 GMT
There's no voltage issue if you use xlr to se cables. The higher voltage on xlr comes from the difference between + and -. If you convert xlr to se your driving - to gnd so the voltage halves, same as the se outputs in almost every case. I'm not aware of any dac where the se outputs are disadvantaged beyond the reduction in snr from the higher voltage available on the xlr, so it's a zero sum game. Apparently on the Schiit Gungnir multibit the signal runs through some FETs before it goes out of the SE outputs . . . . Lot's of users report SQ improvement from the balanced outputs. They could be imagining it of course thinking the balanced 'should' be better but there is a majority opinion there. |
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Post by sq225917 on Nov 26, 2021 12:08:04 GMT
There's always an edge case. My money is on it being the volume difference and volume pot steps not aligning perfectly with the difference in voltage.
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Post by optical on Nov 26, 2021 12:12:23 GMT
There's always an edge case. My money is on it being the volume difference and volume pot steps not aligning perfectly with the difference in voltage. On a lot of peoples (different) kit? Or do you mean a potential problem with the DAC itself? In my experience the volume pots are likely to be worse lower down (less volume) as there is more attenuation so I would have thought it would be the other way round with the SE's sounding better as the pot provides less attenuation for same volume of balanced output (higher). Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying? (probably!!). |
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 26, 2021 12:35:30 GMT
For years I noticed that the balanced signal from my DAC was a little better than the RCA so used that when I had a preamp that internally handled both. When I switched to a simple SE buffer preamp, I justy used an XLR>RCA converter out of the back of the DAC and connected the RCA interconnects to that. Yes, it was a higher voltage out but no big deal and let me use the better XLR outs of the DAC.
I was surprised not not hear a degradation with an adaptor, but just compared RCA IC's using RCA jacks, to RCA IC's using XLR adaptors.
Neutrik or Hosa adaptors are good. Some of the other nonames are poorly contructed and may fall apart when unplugging. |
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optical
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Post by optical on Nov 26, 2021 12:55:31 GMT
For years I noticed that the balanced signal from my DAC was a little better than the RCA so used that when I had a preamp that internally handled both. When I switched to a simple SE buffer preamp, I justy used an XLR>RCA converter out of the back of the DAC and connected the RCA interconnects to that. Yes, it was a higher voltage out but no big deal and let me use the better XLR outs of the DAC.
I was surprised not not hear a degradation with an adaptor, but just compared RCA IC's using RCA jacks, to RCA IC's using XLR adaptors.
Neutrik or Hosa adaptors are good. Some of the other nonames are poorly contructed and may fall apart when unplugging. Bruce, I have those exact adapters in use in my vinyl rig to take an analogue signal from my DEQ processor. I will try it from my DAC balanced out tonight. Thanks. Assumed they wouldn't be great but at least I can do a proper comparison. |
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Post by macca on Nov 26, 2021 12:59:30 GMT
I've used balanced to single ended cables loads of times, there's no problem with them. Cost a couple of quid off of Amazon.
balanced is good for avoiding ground loops or RFI pick up over very long runs, the SQ advantages some report are because levels were not matched in the comparison (if any proper comparison actually took place, which is unlikely in most cases). Just use SE and turn the levels up a bit, hey presto - better SQ!
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optical
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Post by optical on Nov 26, 2021 13:15:14 GMT
I've used balanced to single ended cables loads of times, there's no problem with them. Cost a couple of quid off of Amazon. balanced is good for avoiding ground loops or RFI pick up over very long runs, the SQ advantages some report are because levels were not matched in the comparison (if any proper comparison actually took place, which is unlikely in most cases). Just use SE and turn the levels up a bit, hey presto - better SQ! I agree on a lot of kit there is no difference assuming the levels are matched but my specific example (Schiit Gungnir) does things a little differently on the output stages of balanced vs SE. Also people are building cool little boxes with sweet transformers in them (I'd put a perspex cover on personally to expose the wiring and tranny's) so that also got me interested . . . . |
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Post by macca on Nov 26, 2021 13:50:49 GMT
so you just want a mini ORAC?
I can dig that.
Really it doesn't matter how the device implements balanced connection. just another thing not worth worrying about (at least for me anyways).
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Post by optical on Nov 26, 2021 13:57:28 GMT
so you just want a mini ORAC? I can dig that. Really it doesn't matter how the device implements balanced connection. just another thing not worth worrying about (at least for me anyways). Haha, had to look that one up to be fair, but yeah something along those lines. Like a Pi with transformers. Like I say a few people (quite a few) have reported that even matched the balanced sounded better than SE (due to the extra circuitry on the SE) . . . but they may not be hearing any difference and yes it is a bit too rabbit holey perhaps . . . even for me. |
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Post by macca on Nov 26, 2021 15:58:10 GMT
before you do anything more with the hi-fi you need to sit down and watch all four series of Blakes 7.
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 26, 2021 16:15:17 GMT
I keep (occasionally) trying, but for my ears I always prefer single ended RCA to balanced XLR cables.
See the classifieds for my latest attempt!
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optical
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Post by optical on Nov 26, 2021 17:21:40 GMT
before you do anything more with the hi-fi you need to sit down and watch all four series of Blakes 7. From what little I've seen and occasionally the old man referencing it I'm in full agreement. |
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Post by mrian on Dec 14, 2021 18:44:45 GMT
If you need gain matching too the best solution i found, by trial and error, was an aphex 124.
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Post by misterc on Dec 14, 2021 19:26:40 GMT
If you can avoid like the pleague, any form of adapater causes more issues than it cures imho.
For the audio analyser I actually made specific XLR to RCA cables for the job, and I have plenty of quality genuine adapters, they get you out of a hole but as permanent solution imho NO
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Post by mrian on Dec 14, 2021 19:31:48 GMT
I did say, if you need gain conversion, if not a cable is the way to go
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optical
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Post by optical on Dec 14, 2021 19:37:47 GMT
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