dt79
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Post by dt79 on Nov 20, 2021 17:06:47 GMT
I’ve always wanted to try out a 2M Black and I saw a very low hours one pop up on ebay which I won for a reasonable price. Over the last couple of weeks I’ve been going back and forth between that and my Cadenza Bronze and the results have surprised me. I’ve done as much of a direct comparison as it is possible to do. The only variables are that the 2M Black is on an ADC LMG-1 headshell with Audio Technica PC-OCC lead wires and 228pF capacitance (the natural total of tonearm cables, interconnects and BB3) and the CB is on a Korf HS-A02 headshell with Korf supplied lead wires and 100ohm resistance. Both aligned to Technics 52mm overhang with the only set-up difference being VTA/VTF tailored to each cartridge. As soon as used the 2M Black my first impression was of it digging more detail out of the grooves and every back and forth comparison has reinforced that. Overall I’d say the 2M Black wins out on the top half of the frequency range and the CB wins out on the bottom half. The 2M Black just has more presence, sparkle and clarity to the treble and this extends into the upper midrange. Cymbals have a more natural metallic ring to them whereas they sound a little muted on the CB. Voices are more nuanced and breathy and the decay is lovely. On the other hand the CB clearly has more pronounced bass (which I like). it seems to have more depth and power. Overall the tonal balance of the 2M Black is a touch leaner, whereas the CB is richer and seems to have a touch more tonal colour. On balance…I’m going to write what I was trying not to think… I prefer the 2M Black.  So what’s going on? The CB ought to slay the 2M Black in no uncertain terms. I did wonder if maybe the CB stylus was past its prime. It can’t have more than 1000 hours on it. I have no way of confirm the condition other than an amateur visual inspection and under a loupe it still looks very pointy. Through the course of my comparisons I did give the CB a touch more VTA but it didn’t make much difference. I’m going to try a 50ohm loading for the CB once the resistors arrive. Could it be time to start thinking about getting the CB re-tipped? Anyway, comparisons aside the 2M Black is a great cartridge in its own right. Very crisp and clear and even handed right the way through the frequency range, with amazing detail, a really nice soundstage and crisp dynamics. In isolation you’d never think the bass was lacking. I could really live with this. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 17:12:32 GMT
That sounds like an interesting outcome. The CB has a replicant stylus?
It may be worn, which could account for the difference, but I happily change between MI, MM and MC cartridges.
Each have there pros and cons, but if you prefer the 2M Black, it is going to be cheaper to live with in the long run.
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dt79
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Post by dt79 on Nov 20, 2021 17:24:25 GMT
That sounds like an interesting outcome. The CB has a replicant stylus? It may be worn, which could account for the difference, but I happily change between MI, MM and MC cartridges. Each have there pros and cons, but if you prefer the 2M Black, it is going to be cheaper to live with in the long run. Yes the replicant stylus. It has occurred to me that maybe this is a sign to stop dabbling with expensive MCs… |
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 20, 2021 18:07:28 GMT
It was the 2M Black that opened my eyes to what could be achieved with vinyl replay, it really was an eye opener as I'd never previously been any where near a proper quality cart. I loved that cart to bits at the time I had one, in the set up I had then, A stellar performer, so much so it is often regarded as the the best mm out there or at least in any list when that is put out there. The 2MB led me to its fellow Ortofon Shibata stylus clad 'upper' mc siblings, the Quintet Black and then the Cadenza Black - do they wipe the floor with it, no, they are probably a little more refined, with a little more depth, smoothness maybe, in certain set ups you may not even notice - A cracking cart. The one downside for me, which I find applies to Microlines generally - Shibata, Replicant, FGS etc, IME, is I found it a complete PITA to get perfectly into its sweetspot, and very fussy about set up, alignment, vta/sra, a slightly negative rake tended to be where I found the the magic lay, if set up isnt right, you will wonder what all the fuss is, nail it and very happy days / big smiles  |
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Post by karma67 on Nov 20, 2021 18:19:50 GMT
it doesn't seem a fair comparison to me,low hours against unknown high usage?
both would have to be new in my eyes for any outcome to have merit.
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dt79
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Nov 20, 2021 18:24:48 GMT
It was the 2M Black that opened my eyes to what could be achieved with vinyl replay, it really was an eye opener as I'd never previously been any where near a proper quality cart. I loved that cart to bits at the time I had one, in the set up I had then, A stellar performer, so much so it is often regarded as the the best mm out there or at least in any list when that is put out there. The 2MB led me to its fellow Ortofon Shibata stylus clad 'upper' mc siblings, the Quintet Black and then the Cadenza Black - do they wipe the floor with it, no, they are probably a little more refined, with a little more depth, smoothness maybe, in certain set ups you may not even notice - A cracking cart. The one downside for me, which I find applies to Microlines generally - Shibata, Replicant, FGS etc, IME, is I found it a complete PITA to get perfectly into its sweetspot, and very fussy about set up, alignment, vta/sra, a slightly negative rake tended to be where I found the the magic lay, if set up isnt right, you will wonder what all the fuss is, nail it and very happy days / big smiles I hear you on set-up. I have tinkered with the Cadenza endlessly and at times i have achieved audio nirvana only to try something else and totally mess things up. I thought I had it pretty nailed on again, but the 2M Black has opened my eyes. I think I may have got lucky with the setup on the latter, I put it on, set the VTA flat and it was really sweet right from the get go. I may try a slightly negative rake on it (it would be interesting to see what trading off a touch of ‘air’ to add a little weight to the bass does) and also reduce the resistive load on the Cadenza. Not sure where else there is to go on the Cadenza though in terms of set-up |
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dt79
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Post by dt79 on Nov 20, 2021 18:27:26 GMT
it doesn't seem a fair comparison to me,low hours against unknown high usage? both would have to be new in my eyes for any outcome to have merit. Let’s call it 900 hours on the Cadenza. That’s an average of 2 hours per day since I got it, which is probably a conservative (i.e. erring slightly on the high side) estimate. Would you expect the stylus to have significantly deteriorated? I’m gutted if that is the case. I must have wasted 500 hours of its life before I got anywhere near the right set-up for it. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 20, 2021 18:32:17 GMT
it doesn't seem a fair comparison to me,low hours against unknown high usage? both would have to be new in my eyes for any outcome to have merit. Let’s call it 900 hours on the Cadenza. That’s an average of 2 hours per day since I got it, which is probably a conservative (i.e. erring slightly on the high side) estimate. Would you expect the stylus to have significantly deteriorated? I’m gutted if that is the case. I must have wasted 500 hours of its life before I got anywhere near the right set-up for it. Yes. Quite possible it's not as crisp asbot once was. 900 hours is quite hefty use and I have had carts die at 700hrs The thing is, the fact you had that result says to me that the Cadenza may not be at its best, as the BB3, whilst excellent in MM, is actually better in MC because that's where all the clever circuitry is. The 2M black is no mug. I rate it highly and yes, versus most MC carts, it will deliver...and deliver well. Bags of detail, transparency and soul. Huge dynamics and presence too. Put an FGS stylus on it and it's better again. Interesting read. |
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Post by karma67 on Nov 20, 2021 18:34:45 GMT
it doesn't seem a fair comparison to me,low hours against unknown high usage? both would have to be new in my eyes for any outcome to have merit. Let’s call it 900 hours on the Cadenza. That’s an average of 2 hours per day since I got it, which is probably a conservative (i.e. erring slightly on the high side) estimate. Would you expect the stylus to have significantly deteriorated? I’m gutted if that is the case. I must have wasted 500 hours of its life before I got anywhere near the right set-up for it the only way to tell is to have it looked at under a microscope to be honest. |
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dt79
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Nov 20, 2021 18:44:09 GMT
Let’s call it 900 hours on the Cadenza. That’s an average of 2 hours per day since I got it, which is probably a conservative (i.e. erring slightly on the high side) estimate. Would you expect the stylus to have significantly deteriorated? I’m gutted if that is the case. I must have wasted 500 hours of its life before I got anywhere near the right set-up for it the only way to tell is to have it looked at under a microscope to be honest. I have a cheap USB microscope, I’ll see if i can get a decent image off of that and share it. Or I might invest in a decent microscope! |
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dt79
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Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Nov 20, 2021 18:47:20 GMT
Let’s call it 900 hours on the Cadenza. That’s an average of 2 hours per day since I got it, which is probably a conservative (i.e. erring slightly on the high side) estimate. Would you expect the stylus to have significantly deteriorated? I’m gutted if that is the case. I must have wasted 500 hours of its life before I got anywhere near the right set-up for it. Yes. Quite possible it's not as crisp asbot once was. 900 hours is quite hefty use and I have had carts die at 700hrs The thing is, the fact you had that result says to me that the Cadenza may not be at its best, as the BB3, whilst excellent in MM, is actually better in MC because that's where all the clever circuitry is. The 2M black is no mug. I rate it highly and yes, versus most MC carts, it will deliver...and deliver well. Bags of detail, transparency and soul. Huge dynamics and presence too. Put an FGS stylus on it and it's better again. Interesting read. Yeah, it really is excellent. very impressed. |
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Post by rexton on Nov 20, 2021 19:35:23 GMT
1000h on the Cadenza carts shouldn't be a problem. My old Cadenza black surpassed 1000h without any major loss of detail. It did start to sound ropey at 1500h+ and that is when it got the FGS and suspension damping mods.
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Post by lurch on Nov 21, 2021 0:21:09 GMT
If as I think you said, the CB is not so extended/airy in the upper frequencies then rather than, drop to 50 Ohm which will dampen the cart down I would try loading it at 130 to 150. This will let the CB of the leash a bit and open up the upper frequencies a bit.
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dt79
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Nov 21, 2021 8:27:48 GMT
If as I think you said, the CB is not so extended/airy in the upper frequencies then rather than, drop to 50 Ohm which will dampen the cart down I would try loading it at 130 to 150. This will let the CB of the leash a bit and open up the upper frequencies a bit. Thanks, I am always forgetting which way round it is! |
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Post by karma67 on Nov 21, 2021 8:56:28 GMT
regarding SRA/VTA just a touch above level is where the magic is with my bronze,see below replicant 100 stylus.  |
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dt79
Junior Member
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Post by dt79 on Nov 21, 2021 13:53:29 GMT
regarding SRA/VTA just a touch above level is where the magic is with my bronze,see below replicant 100 stylus. Thanks, that’s exactly how I have it. |
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dt79
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Post by dt79 on Nov 25, 2021 19:19:54 GMT
I dug out the digital microscope and managed to get these images. It's not the best microscope but hopefully these are good enough for someone with a keener eye than me to make sense of. The first one is the Cadenza Bronze, the second the 2M Black and the third is the MMC4 on my B&O Beogram 3300 which I thought I'd grab whilst I was at it. To my untrained eye I think the Cadenza looks good still.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2021 19:22:51 GMT
Well the good news is that the Diamond is still there, but it is hard to see if the faces are worn from those pictures.
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dt79
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Post by dt79 on Nov 25, 2021 19:24:47 GMT
Well the good news is that the Diamond is still there, but it is hard to see if the faces are worn from those pictures. OK, that's a start. What sort of image should I try to capture? Head on? Or do I simply need greater magnification/resolution? |
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Post by lurch on Nov 25, 2021 19:29:36 GMT
Well the good news is that the Diamond is still there, but it is hard to see if the faces are worn from those pictures. OK, that's a start. What sort of image should I try to capture? Head on? Or do I simply need greater magnification/resolution? Head on and side on, at a higher magnification of the diamond, ignore rest of cart. |
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dt79
Junior Member
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Post by dt79 on Nov 25, 2021 19:30:45 GMT
OK, that's a start. What sort of image should I try to capture? Head on? Or do I simply need greater magnification/resolution? Head on and side on, at a higher magnification of the diamond, ignore rest of cart. Ok thanks I'll give it a go. |
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Post by antonio on Nov 26, 2021 1:18:47 GMT
Well to my untrained eye those photos make the cartridges look like new  |
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dt79
Junior Member
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Post by dt79 on Nov 26, 2021 8:34:28 GMT
Alright, this is going to be the best I can do with this microscope. If these aren't good enough I don't mind getting a better microscope if someone can recommend one?
Cheers!
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Post by macca on Nov 26, 2021 9:20:01 GMT
1000h on the Cadenza carts shouldn't be a problem. My old Cadenza black surpassed 1000h without any major loss of detail. It did start to sound ropey at 1500h+ and that is when it got the FGS and suspension damping mods. It's highly unlikely that a stylus won't be significantly deformed after 1000 hours, if you can hear obvious degradation then you've already run it way past its best and will be damaging your records. 1000 hours should be considered an absolute limit for any stylus, it's probably best to replace after 500. That's the reality of it. As far as I'm aware Nagaoka are the only cartridge manufacturer who are honest about this. They advise that degradation will start at 250 hour and advise replacement at 500. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 26, 2021 9:46:43 GMT
1000h on the Cadenza carts shouldn't be a problem. My old Cadenza black surpassed 1000h without any major loss of detail. It did start to sound ropey at 1500h+ and that is when it got the FGS and suspension damping mods. It's highly unlikely that a stylus won't be significantly deformed after 1000 hours, if you can hear obvious degradation then you've already run it way past its best and will be damaging your records. 1000 hours should be considered an absolute limit for any stylus, it's probably best to replace after 500. That's the reality of it. As far as I'm aware Nagaoka are the only cartridge manufacturer who are honest about this. They advise that degradation will start at 250 hour and advise replacement at 500. I've not had a cart go past 1000 hours without it showing audible signs of wear. However, I suppose if your records are mint and you aren't playing 4-6hrs per day, you might get a bit more longevity out of it. This is why I tried to out do vinyl with digital. One big outlay for consistent and a possible lifetime of High quality replay. Then i stuck a PMAT MK8B, Avalon or a BBu into the system and you're served with an instant reminder of why vinyl is king and why we spend such ridiculous amounts on it. |
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dt79
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by dt79 on Nov 26, 2021 10:19:59 GMT
1000h on the Cadenza carts shouldn't be a problem. My old Cadenza black surpassed 1000h without any major loss of detail. It did start to sound ropey at 1500h+ and that is when it got the FGS and suspension damping mods. It's highly unlikely that a stylus won't be significantly deformed after 1000 hours, if you can hear obvious degradation then you've already run it way past its best and will be damaging your records. 1000 hours should be considered an absolute limit for any stylus, it's probably best to replace after 500. That's the reality of it. As far as I'm aware Nagaoka are the only cartridge manufacturer who are honest about this. They advise that degradation will start at 250 hour and advise replacement at 500. It's well over 500 and probably knocking on the door of 1000, so rather than spending money on a better microscope to try to prove it's still OK, perhaps I should just give Killian a shout and get it re-tipped. |
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Post by macca on Nov 26, 2021 12:11:57 GMT
It's highly unlikely that a stylus won't be significantly deformed after 1000 hours, if you can hear obvious degradation then you've already run it way past its best and will be damaging your records. 1000 hours should be considered an absolute limit for any stylus, it's probably best to replace after 500. That's the reality of it. As far as I'm aware Nagaoka are the only cartridge manufacturer who are honest about this. They advise that degradation will start at 250 hour and advise replacement at 500. I've not had a cart go past 1000 hours without it showing audible signs of wear. However, I suppose if your records are mint and you aren't playing 4-6hrs per day, you might get a bit more longevity out of it. This is why I tried to out do vinyl with digital. One big outlay for consistent and a possible lifetime of High quality replay. Then i stuck a PMAT MK8B, Avalon or a BBu into the system and you're served with an instant reminder of why vinyl is king and why we spend such ridiculous amounts on it. vinyl was never king, before digital came along reel to reel was king. I was paying £220 for a new stylus about every six months, which I decided was ridiculous. I can afford it but that's not the point, for me the game was not worth the candle when you can buy an exact digital copy of the master for under a tenner and have totally accurate playback of it for a total one-time spend of less than £600 But then I don't go for the whole 'romance' of the vinyl thing anyway, I've always viewed it as an imperfect, expensive, pain in the arse so it was an easy decision for me. |
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Post by macca on Nov 26, 2021 12:12:49 GMT
It's highly unlikely that a stylus won't be significantly deformed after 1000 hours, if you can hear obvious degradation then you've already run it way past its best and will be damaging your records. 1000 hours should be considered an absolute limit for any stylus, it's probably best to replace after 500. That's the reality of it. As far as I'm aware Nagaoka are the only cartridge manufacturer who are honest about this. They advise that degradation will start at 250 hour and advise replacement at 500. It's well over 500 and probably knocking on the door of 1000, so rather than spending money on a better microscope to try to prove it's still OK, perhaps I should just give Killian a shout and get it re-tipped. That's exactly what you should do. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 26, 2021 12:31:16 GMT
It's highly unlikely that a stylus won't be significantly deformed after 1000 hours, if you can hear obvious degradation then you've already run it way past its best and will be damaging your records. 1000 hours should be considered an absolute limit for any stylus, it's probably best to replace after 500. That's the reality of it. As far as I'm aware Nagaoka are the only cartridge manufacturer who are honest about this. They advise that degradation will start at 250 hour and advise replacement at 500. It's well over 500 and probably knocking on the door of 1000, so rather than spending money on a better microscope to try to prove it's still OK, perhaps I should just give Killian a shout and get it re-tipped. Yes....give Killian a shout and ask him to inspect it. If all is well, yous spent £40 on postage and have piece of mind. If its not, get yourself a new FGS stylus and relax for 1000 hours 😉 |
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dt79
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Post by dt79 on Nov 26, 2021 16:56:48 GMT
Arg, Killian is no longer servicing UK customers as he’s had too much grief with customs following Brexit. That’s a bummer. Anyone know any good UK based retippers?
Expert Stylus Company has been recommended to me.
There’s also a chap on Vinyl Engine (Cafe Latte) who seems to know his onions, but he’s in Australia, so not sure I fancy that.
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