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Post by misterc on Jul 1, 2022 14:03:48 GMT
Personally I would wait until you have listend to before deciding on ANY upgrade work. You make have a rethink
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Post by optical on Jul 1, 2022 14:07:08 GMT
Persdoanlly I would wait until you have listend to before deciding on ANY upgrade work. You make have a rethink Oh absolutely, it was not an off-the-cuff purchase as I researched as many elements as I could to hopefully forego having to immediately upgrade it. As ever the proof will be in the listening. |
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Post by misterc on Jul 1, 2022 14:52:16 GMT
I have two Metrom's a Pevane and the one above the one you purchased (not that good with these names sorry Chris), very sweet, open and fuild, but imho they very, very safe think Meridian safe
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Post by optical on Jul 1, 2022 15:52:26 GMT
I have two Metrom's a Pevane and the one above the one you purchased (not that good with these names sorry Chris), very sweet, open and fuild, but imho they very, very safe think Meridian safe Interesting Tony, what would you say is the characteristic that makes it sound 'safe' as you say? Lack of dynamics, lack of bite or transient attack? The other attributes you mention do give a positive impression for sure. |
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Post by misterc on Jul 1, 2022 16:13:20 GMT
I have two Metrom's a Pevane and the one above the one you purchased (not that good with these names sorry Chris), very sweet, open and fuild, but imho they very, very safe think Meridian safe Interesting Tony, what would you say is the characteristic that makes it sound 'safe' as you say? Lack of dynamics, lack of bite or transient attack? The other attributes you mention do give a positive impression for sure. Hi Chris
Its a modern take on the classic NOS approach, its not the most dynamically contrastive of dac's and for myself (others will feel different) it lack real musical insight the ability to get to the heart of the music.
It does a lot right, zero edges, good depth, respectable texture and a fluid unhurried sound, it is not in any way a bad piece for sure. The Pavane is the top of the older Metrome heap (he is now producing dacs again uder a another name I believe?) is just a more refined and bigger sounding version of the model you have purchased. It delivers a more realxed sound again with bigger staging and a lower noise floor. But the sonic traits are very much in the same mould. If you do not play to much energetic music you might find it will float your boat well.
Do remember the test system I use has a noise floor below human hearing and its straight, no artifical sweeting or naim like tearing of the musical soul, so all the equipment we evalute is laid open for its own abilities. You use Logies so you have a hear-throughess that not so many have, maybe the speed potnetial the Logies may help here.
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Post by optical on Jul 1, 2022 16:45:50 GMT
Interesting Tony, what would you say is the characteristic that makes it sound 'safe' as you say? Lack of dynamics, lack of bite or transient attack? The other attributes you mention do give a positive impression for sure. Hi Chris
Its a modern take on the classic NOS approach, its not the most dynamically contrastive of dac's and for myself (others will feel different) it lack real musical insight the ability to get to the heart of the music.
It does a lot right, zero edges, good depth, respectable texture and a fluid unhurried sound, it is not in any way a bad piece for sure. The Pavane is the top of the older Metrome heap (he is now producing dacs again uder a another name I believe?) is just a more refined and bigger sounding version of the model you have purchased. It delivers a more realxed sound again with bigger staging and a lower noise floor. But the sonic traits are very much in the same mould. If you do not play to much energetic music you might find it will float your boat well.
Do remember the test system I use has a noise floor below human hearing and its straight, no artifical sweeting or naim like tearing of the musical soul, so all the equipment we evalute is laid open for its own abilities. You use Logies so you have a hear-throughess that not so many have, maybe the speed potnetial the Logies may help here.
Thanks for the insight Tony, Yes it's certainly (and can often be) a balancing act and of course synergy is the name of the game. The Logan's do lay things bare but at the same time I have come to suspect they do impart a certain energy and impact to the performance, as well as possibly a slight colour of tone (American design) but not too much to throw the balance off. One thing they are never is soft or mushy so some of the less positive tendencies of NOS may not be the end of the world as you say. |
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Post by misterc on Jul 1, 2022 17:13:30 GMT
Spot on observation Chris, the overall balance of the system imho is the correct way forward, rather than tipping the front end or speaker section over he fulcrum so to speak
Though I strongly suspect you will enjoy finding out its many virtues
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Post by macca on Jul 2, 2022 8:21:39 GMT
The key phrase there is 'for me.' By all means share your subjective experiences but be aware that they are only valid for you, they are not universal truths and should not be expressed as such. There is no evidence to support the claim that 'better' transformers will improve the sound quality of a DAC. There is plenty of evidence that we should not trust our perceptions. People drawing technical conclusions by listening without any controls is, in my opinion, absolutely the worst thing about this hobby. That is why controlled listening tests and measurements are so important. They are the only methods that tell us if differences we perceived are actually real or just in our heads. of course if someone is happy there is a difference that is up to them, we all live in our own subjective universes, but it is no grounds to assume that the difference will be perceived by everyone else too. When you are considering spending a significant amount of money on something it's wise to take that into account. No I do not put any faith in other people's subjective impressions, absolutely nothing personal, I would not expect anyone to place any faith in mine either. They may enjoy reading them, but they would be foolish to take them as gospel. I am always mindful that someone reading such comments will think that they are missing out, that there are DACs that ae 'Streets ahead' of what they are using, and that they now become dissatisfied with the system that they were previously quite happily enjoying listening to music on. Fear of missing out. And the consequence may be that they spend money they cannot really afford to spend to purchase some illusory 'upgrade' just to restore their peace of mind. I am not of the opinion that all DACs sound the same, but barring large variations in frequency response, because of what a DAC does and how it works differences can, at best, be subtle. Sorry, this goes beyond accepting or not accepting if a DAC sounds different due to a change of this or that etc. It's the way you dismiss my suggestion of reasons behind the change. It's one thing to provide a different (and logical) point of view but it's quite another to repeatedly tell people that their subjective opinions simply cannot be valid or correct. At this stage whether a DAC sounds different or not is irrelevant, you won't affect my postings and enjoyment of the forum but having almost every subjective experience critiqued beyond need, will put people off from doing so, that's how people work Martin. I will tell you right now that is how you come off, I'm not having a go or telling you you are right or wrong, you go about your business however you want but it comes across very negatively and narrow minded. You clearly have no time for others opinions or subjective experiences when it comes to hifi, thats fine, but you don't have to try and tear them apart as a result. I'm not telling anyone to go out and buy something, I'm not telling anyone this or that is the best thing ever, if I was, your stance might hold a little more credibility but it's just repeatedly telling people they can't hear what they are hearing, it's frankly boring and rude. BUT in answer to your points, I'm not implying what I've said are universal truths etc, you have even quoted me as saying phrases such as "for me" etc, that literally negates that I'm stating a fact so I really don't understand your contradictive argument there. If what you have expressed above would be the case then no one would be able to express a single subjective opinion on absolutely anything unless the evaluation was carried out in a completely controlled environment as you state? My word Martin, can you actually imagine how awful this hobby would be were something like that to become the norm? i will open a new thread to respond rather than muck up this one further. |
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Post by optical on Jul 6, 2022 7:35:30 GMT
The Metrum arrived at the weekend, quality fast shipping from the seller there.  *Subjective observations alert* (copy and paste that into your heads, becasue I simply can't be bothered to write it repeatedly for those whom struggle to process it). Upon first listen it was apparent that the sound signature of the DAC leans more towards the richer/darker presentation without sacrificing too much in the resoltion area. More bite to string plucks and girth to instruments. I was able to move the subs frequency roll off down a notch (mid 40's down to 40Hz) as there was clearly some more low end coming from the main speakers now. That's one thing I've noticed when changing any DAC (and also pre-amp/power amp/phono stage etc), they all exhibit unique characteristics which for whatever reason always mean re-fine-tuning the subs to augment their output to the change. This is somewhat annoying and tedious but will yield the best results and is worth doing. Anyway, back to the listening. Certain instruments which are known to occasionally cause issue with sibilance and shrill listening fatigue, horns, violins etc are very well contained and controlled. The roll off on the HF in the specs for the DAC (as pointed out by Oli) is a little early compared to most, which may account for some of the feeling of less resolution, but it has a pleasing effect here where I can listen to all instruments all day without it ever getting to a straining stage. Things were looking up. Yes that's a past tense . . . . nowt to do with the sound quality either, whcih makes it all the more galling. The DAC is only rated to 176/188 sample rate, (although apparently there are some 1/100 that can handle 192/196) unfortunately whilst playing some of the 176/188 material the DAC did 'choke' and struggled to lock on. It was probably only happening once every 5 or so songs (although this is still not acceptable I could maybe have lived with it as I don't have much above 96 sample rate). I also decided just to have a quick look in the power supply to check everything was as stated. Only one traffo inside, strange as the higher spec (15va) output version (which this was labelled as on the back) uses dual transformers. Seems it may have been mis-labelled at some point also. I'd always be wondering if the higher spec power supply was *that* much better or not now wouldn't I . . . . So it's going to have to go back, probably not the fault of the seller, I can believe that it's possible they may never have tried any 176/188 rate media through it and I could certainly understand that they never checked the power supply, either way as long as a full refund occurs, no damage has been done. A shame as like I say I was impressed by the sound quality but those two hiccups are not really acceptable for me, it should perform at least to spec and be spec'd according to the manufacturers indication on the case. I certainly haven't been put off Metrum DAC's however as I know there are a few on here whom seem to like them, they do a lot right from what I've heard so far. Oh well, another roll of the dice, you win some you lose some. Gladly no real harm done and more knowledge gained. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 6, 2022 8:09:22 GMT
That's a real shame, but top marks for getting the lid off and making sure it was what it said on the tin.
Have you contacted the seller? Has he agreed to the return or have you go e through the "not as described" method?
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Post by optical on Jul 6, 2022 8:23:34 GMT
That's a real shame, but top marks for getting the lid off and making sure it was what it said on the tin. Have you contacted the seller? Has he agreed to the return or have you go e through the "not as described" method? Oh yeah the seller (she!) is fine with it and will accept the return no problem. I have a video of it stuttering with the material and took pics of thesingle traffo which I can compare with stock pics of the correct one. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 6, 2022 8:24:40 GMT
That's a real shame, but top marks for getting the lid off and making sure it was what it said on the tin. Have you contacted the seller? Has he agreed to the return or have you go e through the "not as described" method? Oh yeah the seller (she!) is fine with it and will accept the return no problem. I have a video of it stuttering with the material and took pics of thesingle traffo which I can compare with stock pics of the correct one. That's fair enough. Shane for her as I'd bet she had no idea. |
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Post by antonio on Jul 6, 2022 13:40:34 GMT
What a shame for both you and the seller, sounds like a dac that I would enjoy. Would have been interested to hear what Metrum have to say about the LPS, and if the have any spare ones that could replace yours. How old is the model you purchased?
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Post by optical on Jul 6, 2022 13:51:36 GMT
What a shame for both you and the seller, sounds like a dac that I would enjoy. Would have been interested to hear what Metrum have to say about the LPS, and if the have any spare ones that could replace yours. How old is the model you purchased? Not sure to be honest Dave, from the reviews I would say it's maybe 10 years old. I'm not particulary bothered, although it sounded good, I have a lot of DAC's which sound good. Although this did get a bit closer to what I have come to appreciate more in the sound that I'm after. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2022 15:14:24 GMT
I am still toying with the idea of a R2R DAC, as a few of the Denafrips are appearing on the 2nd market now.
The question is, will it be better, or just a bit different from my AKM chipped RME?
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Post by antonio on Jul 6, 2022 15:18:41 GMT
@cageyh My guess is just different, the question should be 'which one will I like the most'?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2022 16:13:09 GMT
That is what I qas thinking, and there is nothing wrong with the RME, so...
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Post by misterc on Jul 6, 2022 16:29:39 GMT
I am still toying with the idea of a R2R DAC, as a few of the Denafrips are appearing on the 2nd market now. The question is, will it be better, or just a bit different from my AKM chipped RME? Very different no question even in a modest system, they are quite opposite in nature, Denifrips are well ultra safe until the T + well that's just quite different to most things, not my bag at all, but its got enough pull with left field guys to keep it banging the used circuit for a few years no problem.
If you are looking to try a flavour of new school r2r then Pontus II is good choice, Alan's Holo Spring KTE is the next step in that section of the dac ladder (spot the pun  ) If you are a trditional TT guy then the new school r2r's are where you are looking to go. The other guys who like music as it was intended to sampled (another pun really?  ) then you need to look at the road Oli has trodden.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 6, 2022 17:27:27 GMT
That is what I qas thinking, and there is nothing wrong with the RME, so... There is nothing wrong with trying a new DAC, K. Some of the R-2R DACs are special sauce in a vanilla world of Sabre and AKM chip DACS, and regardless of measured data and it's pointer towards chip dacs being the future, my listening experience has been a direct contradiction of that Data. I genuinly don't think anything said here will push you in either direction, but you probably wont rest until you try. |
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) If you are a trditional TT guy then the new school r2r's are where you are looking to go. The other guys who like music as it was intended to sampled (another pun really? 
) then you need to look at the road Oli has trodden.