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Post by optical on Jun 30, 2022 11:49:24 GMT
The intersting part for me is how vinyl still manages (at least here) to trump all of this digital wizardry. Thinking in that way, the spec and measuring bragging rights that everyone seems to be chasing, can't be the be all and end all of the resultant listening performance. there must be something else that is critical, and they are not doing it to these modern day dacs, or the new chips can't be worked the same way? I just don't know. I have had DACs here that lead the way on ASR for measurements. I have got a DAC that they would lambast, and it is doing a far more capable job than the leader of the pack does. I don't understand why this is, but i can't ignore how much more i am enjoying digital with it in situ. The only thing i can really point to is probably the power supply and the output stage. They are significant in the Parasound, and it looks like the power supplied have been separated throughout the DAC. I don't recall seeing this in other DACs i have had, but then again it may have been done differently. Soncoz SGD1 has separate linear supplies for analogue and digital sections. It does but they are cheapo Talema ones, not bad but can do better for similar money from experience, in that I've heard the exact same DAC with those and with a larger toroidal and the latter was streets ahead. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 30, 2022 11:57:31 GMT
Not all Talema transformers are equal, and the ones in the blue casings are pretty standard fare. How they perform is affected by saturation and efficiancy.
I'd wager the larger traffos were a much higher Va?
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Post by optical on Jun 30, 2022 12:05:05 GMT
Not all Talema transformers are equal, and the ones in the blue casings are pretty standard fare. How they perform is affected by saturation and efficiancy. I'd wager the larger traffos were a much higher Va? I think they were a couple of 15v (2 x 7.5v) ones (The Talema), can't remember the traffos but I imagine they would be higher spec although similary priced. The Talema are neat and tidy though and perfectly adequate in a lot of applications but I don't like adequate. |
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Post by misterc on Jun 30, 2022 12:10:01 GMT
Left field suggestion the Schiit Yggdrasil but the (less is more version), it can be made to sound really good have worked on three now and they really did deliver plus a its a sensible price and Schiit (USA) are a good bunch
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 30, 2022 12:19:26 GMT
Not all Talema transformers are equal, and the ones in the blue casings are pretty standard fare. How they perform is affected by saturation and efficiancy. I'd wager the larger traffos were a much higher Va? I think they were a couple of 15v (2 x 7.5v) ones (The Talema), can't remember the traffos but I imagine they would be higher spec although similary priced. The Talema are neat and tidy though and perfectly adequate in a lot of applications but I don't like adequate. No, I agree in the "adequate" part, but I was saying Talema (the brand) actually make some decent traffos. We use them, and we like them. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 30, 2022 12:19:49 GMT
Left field suggestion the Schiit Yggdrasil but the (less is more version), it can be made to sound really good have worked on three now and they really did deliver plus a its a sensible price and Schiit (USA) are a good bunch Made to sound good at what cost T? |
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Post by misterc on Jun 30, 2022 12:22:33 GMT
Hi Oli
If you are prepared to do the work I feel £350 should cover it
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Post by optical on Jun 30, 2022 12:51:59 GMT
Left field suggestion the Schiit Yggdrasil but the (less is more version), it can be made to sound really good have worked on three now and they really did deliver plus a its a sensible price and Schiit (USA) are a good bunch Indeed, hence me saying I wanted to hear one on the last page!  Always liked the design and they seem to know what they're doing re multibit implementation. Good call going to the USA as Schiit UK are . . . . well, just that  I enquired about a Freya+ for about a year and each time was, "well give us an email next week as we're expecting *some* stock" . . . haha |
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Post by sq225917 on Jun 30, 2022 12:52:56 GMT
Seconded on the 360s, one of the top ten dacs IMO.
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Post by macca on Jun 30, 2022 14:17:13 GMT
Soncoz SGD1 has separate linear supplies for analogue and digital sections. It does but they are cheapo Talema ones, not bad but can do better for similar money from experience, in that I've heard the exact same DAC with those and with a larger toroidal and the latter was streets ahead. it's a DAC, it doesn't need big, fancy transformers. I mean what is the maximum current draw? As long as the power supply isn't bleeding noise then it's as good as it can be. I don't agree that it is possible for any DAC to be 'Streets ahead' of another, not unless one is faulty. You preferred it for some reason or reasons, fair enough, but for every person who loves a DAC I can find another who will claim he couldn't live with it in his system. We're not evaluating quality here, just personal taste I think. Suspect it is likely the one you preferred simply had a higher output voltage. It was slightly louder, and so sounded more confident, muscular, authoritative, pick your adjective. Lots of expensive fancy DACs at the show the other weekend, they weren't doing anything the cheaper ones didn't. I mean there was a Nagra DAC that retails for £26K there playing through £27K speakers. Sound was good but there weren't any revelations happening compared to what I'm used to at home. |
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Post by optical on Jun 30, 2022 14:36:42 GMT
It does but they are cheapo Talema ones, not bad but can do better for similar money from experience, in that I've heard the exact same DAC with those and with a larger toroidal and the latter was streets ahead. it's a DAC, it doesn't need big, fancy transformers. I mean what is the maximum current draw? As long as the power supply isn't bleeding noise then it's as good as it can be. I don't agree that it is possible for any DAC to be 'Streets ahead' of another, not unless one is faulty. You preferred it for some reason or reasons, fair enough, but for every person who loves a DAC I can find another who will claim he couldn't live with it in his system. We're not evaluating quality here, just personal taste I think. Suspect it is likely the one you preferred simply had a higher output voltage. It was slightly louder, and so sounded more confident, muscular, authoritative, pick your adjective. Lots of expensive fancy DACs at the show the other weekend, they weren't doing anything the cheaper ones didn't. I mean there was a Nagra DAC that retails for £26K there playing through £27K speakers. Sound was good but there weren't any revelations happening compared to what I'm used to at home. Not 'fancy' transformers, just better ones. If that's your outlook on it then I gladly accept that. I'm not sure why some people seem so unreceptive to differences between DAC's (although it will save you a ton of cash) but for me the differences can be huge and obvious at any volume. This bias/volume matching thing is tedious, it only really comes into play in double blind ABX testing bla bla bla which I have no interest in doing becasue I trust my ears to bypass all that. That stuff is for people on a mission to prove crap to other people, not interested. It doesn't really bother me that you never put any faith in a word I say, it does bother me slightly that you tell me why I have come to the conclusion I have and that it can't have anything to do with my suggestions, only yours. It's beyond dismissive Martin. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 30, 2022 16:46:35 GMT
Transformers are not all equal, and if you think they don'[t have a bearing on the sound you get, you are dead wrong.
We heard Audible differences with traffos when experimenting with the BB3, BBu, BT2 and the Avalon. Despite them all delivering Minimum current draw requirements, the quality of the transformer made a difference. So did the type. EI, O-Core, Squat Traffo, Tall traffo, they all had an influence. A DAC is not unsusceptible to any change of power supply, Transformer change or anything else for that matter.
DACs are not special or immune. It's actually quite easy to start making them sound different with a few minor mods.
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Post by misterc on Jun 30, 2022 17:22:00 GMT
Transformers are not all equal, and if you think they don'[t have a bearing on the sound you get, you are dead wrong. We heard Audible differences with traffos when experimenting with the BB3, BBu, BT2 and the Avalon. Despite them all delivering Minimum current draw requirements, the quality of the transformer made a difference. So did the type. EI, O-Core, Squat Traffo, Tall traffo, they all had an influence. A DAC is not unsusceptible to any change of power supply, Transformer change or anything else for that matter. DACs are not special or immune. It's actually quite easy to start making them sound different with a few minor mods. That has been happening for many, many years an with benefical results.
The WHOLE power supply circuit is CRITCAL with an serial data movement and digital audio is TDME /L or R justfied or I2s and make no mistake its critical for quality sound reproduction. This is why we have our own (small) transformer winding company we have total control of how/why we wind this way and which materials we use for the exact products.
The transformers are a critical part of that circuit, that said no point in having a 750Va core for a 250ma max current draw @ 3.3Vdc or lower on all digital circuits
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 30, 2022 18:33:25 GMT
Transformers are not all equal, and if you think they don'[t have a bearing on the sound you get, you are dead wrong. We heard Audible differences with traffos when experimenting with the BB3, BBu, BT2 and the Avalon. Despite them all delivering Minimum current draw requirements, the quality of the transformer made a difference. So did the type. EI, O-Core, Squat Traffo, Tall traffo, they all had an influence. A DAC is not unsusceptible to any change of power supply, Transformer change or anything else for that matter. DACs are not special or immune. It's actually quite easy to start making them sound different with a few minor mods. That has been happening for many, many years an with benefical results. The WHOLE power supply circuit is CRITCAL with an serial data movement and digital audio is TDME /L or R justfied or I2s and make no mistake its critical for quality sound reproduction. This is why we have our own (small) transformer winding company we have total control of how/why we wind this way and which materials we use for the exact products. The transformers are a critical part of that circuit, that said no point in having a 750Va core for a 250ma max current draw @ 3.3Vdc or lower on all digital circuits
We know this T. We do the experiments, we do the listening and the measurements. |
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Post by macca on Jul 1, 2022 8:35:42 GMT
it's a DAC, it doesn't need big, fancy transformers. I mean what is the maximum current draw? As long as the power supply isn't bleeding noise then it's as good as it can be. I don't agree that it is possible for any DAC to be 'Streets ahead' of another, not unless one is faulty. You preferred it for some reason or reasons, fair enough, but for every person who loves a DAC I can find another who will claim he couldn't live with it in his system. We're not evaluating quality here, just personal taste I think. Suspect it is likely the one you preferred simply had a higher output voltage. It was slightly louder, and so sounded more confident, muscular, authoritative, pick your adjective. Lots of expensive fancy DACs at the show the other weekend, they weren't doing anything the cheaper ones didn't. I mean there was a Nagra DAC that retails for £26K there playing through £27K speakers. Sound was good but there weren't any revelations happening compared to what I'm used to at home. Not 'fancy' transformers, just better ones. If that's your outlook on it then I gladly accept that. I'm not sure why some people seem so unreceptive to differences between DAC's (although it will save you a ton of cash) but for me the differences can be huge and obvious at any volume. This bias/volume matching thing is tedious, it only really comes into play in double blind ABX testing bla bla bla which I have no interest in doing becasue I trust my ears to bypass all that. That stuff is for people on a mission to prove crap to other people, not interested. It doesn't really bother me that you never put any faith in a word I say, it does bother me slightly that you tell me why I have come to the conclusion I have and that it can't have anything to do with my suggestions, only yours. It's beyond dismissive Martin. The key phrase there is 'for me.' By all means share your subjective experiences but be aware that they are only valid for you, they are not universal truths and should not be expressed as such. There is no evidence to support the claim that 'better' transformers will improve the sound quality of a DAC. There is plenty of evidence that we should not trust our perceptions. People drawing technical conclusions by listening without any controls is, in my opinion, absolutely the worst thing about this hobby. That is why controlled listening tests and measurements are so important. They are the only methods that tell us if differences we perceived are actually real or just in our heads. of course if someone is happy there is a difference that is up to them, we all live in our own subjective universes, but it is no grounds to assume that the difference will be perceived by everyone else too. When you are considering spending a significant amount of money on something it's wise to take that into account. No I do not put any faith in other people's subjective impressions, absolutely nothing personal, I would not expect anyone to place any faith in mine either. They may enjoy reading them, but they would be foolish to take them as gospel. I am always mindful that someone reading such comments will think that they are missing out, that there are DACs that ae 'Streets ahead' of what they are using, and that they now become dissatisfied with the system that they were previously quite happily enjoying listening to music on. Fear of missing out. And the consequence may be that they spend money they cannot really afford to spend to purchase some illusory 'upgrade' just to restore their peace of mind. I am not of the opinion that all DACs sound the same, but barring large variations in frequency response, because of what a DAC does and how it works differences can, at best, be subtle. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 1, 2022 9:01:53 GMT
Not 'fancy' transformers, just better ones. If that's your outlook on it then I gladly accept that. I'm not sure why some people seem so unreceptive to differences between DAC's (although it will save you a ton of cash) but for me the differences can be huge and obvious at any volume. This bias/volume matching thing is tedious, it only really comes into play in double blind ABX testing bla bla bla which I have no interest in doing becasue I trust my ears to bypass all that. That stuff is for people on a mission to prove crap to other people, not interested. It doesn't really bother me that you never put any faith in a word I say, it does bother me slightly that you tell me why I have come to the conclusion I have and that it can't have anything to do with my suggestions, only yours. It's beyond dismissive Martin. There is no evidence to support the claim that 'better' transformers will improve the sound quality of a DAC. There isnt any evidence to say they don't improve SQ either. In fact, i can't find a single article where people have run a full set of measurements with a test DAC and swapped the transformer for different kinds. Therefore one should keep in mind that the lack of evidence isnt proof of anything other than a lack of documented experimentation. Measurements do not tell you how something sounds. It only tells you that the device reaches a certain level of capability based criteria. |
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Post by optical on Jul 1, 2022 9:08:01 GMT
Not 'fancy' transformers, just better ones. If that's your outlook on it then I gladly accept that. I'm not sure why some people seem so unreceptive to differences between DAC's (although it will save you a ton of cash) but for me the differences can be huge and obvious at any volume. This bias/volume matching thing is tedious, it only really comes into play in double blind ABX testing bla bla bla which I have no interest in doing becasue I trust my ears to bypass all that. That stuff is for people on a mission to prove crap to other people, not interested. It doesn't really bother me that you never put any faith in a word I say, it does bother me slightly that you tell me why I have come to the conclusion I have and that it can't have anything to do with my suggestions, only yours. It's beyond dismissive Martin. The key phrase there is 'for me.' By all means share your subjective experiences but be aware that they are only valid for you, they are not universal truths and should not be expressed as such. There is no evidence to support the claim that 'better' transformers will improve the sound quality of a DAC. There is plenty of evidence that we should not trust our perceptions. People drawing technical conclusions by listening without any controls is, in my opinion, absolutely the worst thing about this hobby. That is why controlled listening tests and measurements are so important. They are the only methods that tell us if differences we perceived are actually real or just in our heads. of course if someone is happy there is a difference that is up to them, we all live in our own subjective universes, but it is no grounds to assume that the difference will be perceived by everyone else too. When you are considering spending a significant amount of money on something it's wise to take that into account. No I do not put any faith in other people's subjective impressions, absolutely nothing personal, I would not expect anyone to place any faith in mine either. They may enjoy reading them, but they would be foolish to take them as gospel. I am always mindful that someone reading such comments will think that they are missing out, that there are DACs that ae 'Streets ahead' of what they are using, and that they now become dissatisfied with the system that they were previously quite happily enjoying listening to music on. Fear of missing out. And the consequence may be that they spend money they cannot really afford to spend to purchase some illusory 'upgrade' just to restore their peace of mind. I am not of the opinion that all DACs sound the same, but barring large variations in frequency response, because of what a DAC does and how it works differences can, at best, be subtle. Sorry, this goes beyond accepting or not accepting if a DAC sounds different due to a change of this or that etc. It's the way you dismiss my suggestion of reasons behind the change. It's one thing to provide a different (and logical) point of view but it's quite another to repeatedly tell people that their subjective opinions simply cannot be valid or correct. At this stage whether a DAC sounds different or not is irrelevant, you won't affect my postings and enjoyment of the forum but having almost every subjective experience critiqued beyond need, will put people off from doing so, that's how people work Martin. I will tell you right now that is how you come off, I'm not having a go or telling you you are right or wrong, you go about your business however you want but it comes across very negatively and narrow minded. You clearly have no time for others opinions or subjective experiences when it comes to hifi, thats fine, but you don't have to try and tear them apart as a result. I'm not telling anyone to go out and buy something, I'm not telling anyone this or that is the best thing ever, if I was, your stance might hold a little more credibility but it's just repeatedly telling people they can't hear what they are hearing, it's frankly boring and rude. BUT in answer to your points, I'm not implying what I've said are universal truths etc, you have even quoted me as saying phrases such as "for me" etc, that literally negates that I'm stating a fact so I really don't understand your contradictive argument there. If what you have expressed above would be the case then no one would be able to express a single subjective opinion on absolutely anything unless the evaluation was carried out in a completely controlled environment as you state? My word Martin, can you actually imagine how awful this hobby would be were something like that to become the norm? |
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Post by antonio on Jul 1, 2022 10:08:28 GMT
Having changed my dac very recently, Calyx 24/192 (which I rated highly) to a Soekris 2541 with ext PS at a cost difference of £850, was it worth it and is there a difference in sq? £850 is a substantial amount for many and I would think quite a number of folk would baulk at that for the 'subtle' improvement in sound that I now get. Previously I changed a Topping D30 to a XiangSheng DA 05ii at approx double the cost of the D30, I suppose I got a similar amount of improvement at a much lower cost. macca, you may be correct in saying improvements in dac's is subtle, but it is definitely there, the higher up the ladder you climb the differences in sq may well reduce but for long term listening many think it is worth the expense. |
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Post by optical on Jul 1, 2022 10:17:54 GMT
Having changed my dac very recently, Calyx 24/192 (which I rated highly) to a Soekris 2541 with ext PS at a cost difference of £850, was it worth it and is there a difference in sq? £850 is a substantial amount for many and I would think quite a number of folk would baulk at that for the 'subtle' improvement in sound that I now get. Previously I changed a Topping D30 to a XiangSheng DA 05ii at approx double the cost of the D30, I suppose I got a similar amount of improvement at a much lower cost. macca , you may be correct in saying improvements in dac's is subtle, but it is definitely there, the higher up the ladder you climb the differences in sq may well reduce but for long term listening many think it is worth the expense. To be fair Dave I don't think macca is saying there aren't SQ differences between DAC's, and even if he was that is not a problem for me in the slightest. It's the immediate dismissal of an opinion becasue it hasn't met his own criteria to be valid that I took issue with. Anyway I hope we can continue the thread towards the discussion of old DAC's and topologies, becasue I'm loving most of the discussion. I do appreciate Martin's principals, I'll state that for the record and I know it's coming from a place of good will, but sometimes the focussed dismissal of subjective opinion flat out, is a bit unecessary in my opinion. That's all folks. |
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Post by optical on Jul 1, 2022 11:32:21 GMT
Well I've gone and bought a DAC . . . not that I really needed one but fancied going for something a bit different, it's not 'vintage' as such but it's topology is in fact fairly unique from what I can tell. No buffer/output stage as such, the 8 chips (4 per channel) are made to handle 75ohm signals so they are both the conversion and output devices, straight into them and straight out the RCA's. It uses industrial multibit chips not specifically designed for audio but chosen specifically for decoding speed and accuracy. Big power supply with dual transformers and lots of smoothing caps in there. Sound signature leans more towards the warm/lush presentation apparently (subjective of course) but it sounds like it could tick a few of the boxes I've outlined earlier in the thread, it arrives next week so we shall see. . . Ladies and genbtlemen, the Metrum Acoustics NOS mini Octave.    |
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Post by misterc on Jul 1, 2022 12:21:33 GMT
Nice..................................................................
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Post by firebottle on Jul 1, 2022 12:26:33 GMT
It doesn't use those horrible TDA1543's does it?
Sorry Chris, just saying it like it is, I have a CD player with one of those chips in.
I don't rate them, they have distortion at lower levels that is unacceptable.
At least with 8 chips it will be a bit of an improvement.
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Post by optical on Jul 1, 2022 12:33:59 GMT
It doesn't use those horrible TDA1543's does it? Sorry Chris, just saying it like it is, I have a CD player with one of those chips in. I don't rate them, they have distortion at lower levels that is unacceptable. At least with 8 chips it will be a bit of an improvement. Nope, they are not 'audio' chips as such. Sourced from the computer industry apparently. The serials and identity markings are removed before installation apparently so as to keep them anonymous . . . . Reviews are hard to come by (apart from the 6 moons obligatory waffling, although does outline the technical topology quite well). Although there were a bunch of initial rave reviews but production run was fairly short so seems to have flown under the radar a little. Designer had access to a lot of very high tech industry and manufacturing techniques from the radar/sonar sector of the manufacturing industry. So I'd imagine tolerances and accuracy are tight. There are a few graphs here Alan, I'm not quite sure what means what (although I understand a tiny bit!). Look decent enough to me anyway. reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/dac/metrum-nos-mini-dac-octave.php#gsc.tab=0 |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 1, 2022 13:26:29 GMT
Rolls off a touch earlier than I'd expect, but none of the measurements are utterly terrible....
Matters not, see how it sounds!
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 1, 2022 13:32:05 GMT
Iirc they're actually video dac chips.
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Post by optical on Jul 1, 2022 13:34:00 GMT
Iirc they're actually video dac chips. Makes sense, hence the 75ohm design . . . Or do you mean they are for a DAC within a video application and wouldn't actually process any digital video data at 75ohm?? Just audio data but within another application? |
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Post by mikeyb on Jul 1, 2022 13:41:55 GMT
Got two traffos that'll be cos it's stereo?
😜
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 1, 2022 13:50:29 GMT
Iirc they're actually video dac chips. Makes sense, hence the 75ohm design . . . Or do you mean they are for a DAC within a video application and wouldn't actually process any digital video data at 75ohm?? Just audio data but within another application? "They are also used in televisions and mobile phones to convert digital video data into analog video signals which connect to the screen drivers to display monochrome or color images" |
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Post by edward on Jul 1, 2022 13:50:36 GMT
Nice new dac there Chris. Waiting with bated breath as to how you upgrade the Metrum and your opinion of it doing something nice. I'll then bring over my Metrum for you do your magic on it.   |
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Post by optical on Jul 1, 2022 13:56:03 GMT
Nice new dac there Chris. Waiting with bated breath as to how you upgrade the Metrum and your opinion of it doing something nice. I'll then bring over my Metrum for you do your magic on it. Thanks Edward but I think I'll be leaving it well alone. The space is quite tight on the board so won't be swapping components (certainly not at first  ). The power supply also looks well sorted so nothing to be done there either hopefully. My modding powers are not up to doing anything more than swapping caps/wiring and connectors really and although that covers most of what DAC's are this one is built by CAD-CAM rather than the human hand so best leave it that way I suspect. Yes, your Metrum was on my list but I fancied something a bit different . . . WIll update with my impressions soon as its in the setup! |
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