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Post by optical on Nov 19, 2021 12:05:33 GMT
As my TDA1541 C3G tube dac makes it's way back to me (having failed to make it to Germany for repair due to DHL negligence) I'm pondering a 'cheap' DAC in the meantime. I'm trying to move my system away from tubes in the long term so it looks like it's going to be an SS one. Over the past few weeks combining a mixture of reviews and logic (only my own so probably wrong and wildly naive but optimistic) I've made a shortlist of a few DAC's which might fit the bill. Ultimately the sonics are the be all and end all here, Measurment's are good, but don't tell the whole story. My definition of 'better' is not necessarily the same as the next man's. Distortion, if kept within certain realms, isn't the absolute be all and end all. Musicality is. Having equipment that measures perfectly and has linear response may in theory equate to the most 'accurate' rendering of the source material. It may also equate to things sounding a bit dry/flat/boring in my experience. I want my hifi to bring texture to performances, a full-bodied sound without being over-blown or hard edged is my goal. Of course, I want accuracy in as much that I want equipment to reflect the quality of the material and recording but I also like to be impressed by the kit, should that come at the expense of some 'accuracy' in some people's opinions, so be it. Some would argue that is blasphemy and not faithful to the recording, I would argue that no two pairs of (different) speakers sound the same, nor do cartridges, phono stages etc so why should the same logic not be applied to digital equipment made up of different parts. Chips, boards, power supplies, wiring, connectors, oversampling, NOS, R2R, a million ways to skin the digital cat. Such is the choice nowadays; one simply has no idea where to start really. I think there is some mileage left in the 'older' chips. Looking at how they are built (good supplies/transformers) there's no reason they wouldn't compete with a lot of today's offerings. I've also chucked a few 'modern' ones in there which have a combination of trusted chip implementation and nice-looking build quality. I suppose budget would be under say £500. As ultimately, I will be upgrading to a 'top/mid (depending on where you sit) level' DAC in the future. Denafrips, Soekris, Musician etc. Anyway, enough ranting, I'll start here: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304209934517?hash=item46d45338b5:g:sI8AAOSwj9phgWZcwww.ebay.co.uk/itm/165163901977?hash=item2674892419:g:pbcAAOSwdMNhgZFH (Thanks to antonio for spotting this!) www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185061562728?hash=item2b16875968:g:v~kAAOSwDt9hSLlLwww.ebay.co.uk/itm/165107296548Modern DAC's: www.aliexpress.com/item/4000723766797.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.1a5bc761Hf9zyj&algo_pvid=63370bd1-1082-4b3a-9b4c-dcc70a43edab&algo_exp_id=63370bd1-1082-4b3a-9b4c-dcc70a43edab-28&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2210000006285889686%22%7Dwww.aliexpress.com/item/32956781578.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.517938dcYbii2v&algo_pvid=fb3b36c5-bd51-4a90-afe3-1e6e0a98c2ae&algo_exp_id=fb3b36c5-bd51-4a90-afe3-1e6e0a98c2ae-24&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2266437873476%22%7Dwww.aliexpress.com/item/1005003316365042.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.e4dd73b7aAB7uA&algo_pvid=e198972f-7fc8-4204-8c95-49dce8ba54b6&algo_exp_id=e198972f-7fc8-4204-8c95-49dce8ba54b6-37&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000025177198758%22%7Dwww.aliexpress.com/item/32957520909.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000014.9.745d7d227LXdDQ&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.33416.213724.0&scm_id=1007.33416.213724.0&scm-url=1007.33416.213724.0&pvid=915398dc-23e5-4113-8d5c-7f188aea86c0&_t=gps-id:pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.33416.213724.0,pvid:915398dc-23e5-4113-8d5c-7f188aea86c0,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238109%231935&&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22:%2266388119787%22,%22sceneId%22:%2223416%22%7D Anything else I should be looking at or any thoughts on the above much appreciated as ever. Be interesting to get opinions on the above DAC's, chips and their implementations etc, and peoples experience thereof. |
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Post by macca on Nov 19, 2021 12:20:23 GMT
For the DAC to actually be audibly different from other DACs you need to look at some really bad ones.
The two worst stand alone DACs ASR measured are the Audio GD NFB 28-28 and the PS Audio Stellar Gain DAC. They actually have noise and distortion so high it will border on audibility.
That doesn't mean they will sound bad but at least they have a chance of sounding 'different.'
if it were me I'd just get a Klark Teknik analogue EQ unit and tweak the sound that way. Can lend you one if you want, has balanced connections.
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Post by optical on Nov 19, 2021 12:30:40 GMT
For the DAC to actually be audibly different from other DACs you need to look at some really bad ones. The two worst stand alone DACs ASR measured are the Audio GD NFB 28-28 and the PS Audio Stellar Gain DAC. They actually have noise and distortion so high it will border on audibility. That doesn't mean they will sound bad but at least they have a chance of sounding 'different.' if it were me I'd just get a Klark Teknik analogue EQ unit and tweak the sound that way. Can lend you one if you want, has balanced connections. Thanks for the offer there Macca, much appreciated. I could use the DEQ2496 if I wanted to actually tweak the EQ but I prefer to let the DAC's 'sound signature' or 'flavour' come through. In my experience they very much have them. Differences can be small or completely inaudible or they can be very obvious indeed. We can discuss measurements again if you like  but I'm more interested in peoples experiences of chip implementations of old vs new DAC's. That Klark Teknik is a very cool looking piece of kit by the way, like a studio compressor. |
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 19, 2021 12:39:43 GMT
In the early 90's I listened to a number of DACS. Most of the ones under 1500 seemed fairly similar. Over 2000 and they started sounding better but in different ways to each other. I listened to a Theta DS Pro V and a Krell in a similar pricepoint. Both were impressive but sounded different and I had my preferences.
I may be wrong but I thought the original Benchmark DAC was generally heard to be the opposite of all you value. Cold, unengaging digital at its worst. I could remember wrongly.
I’ve not heard or read Monarchy DACs though they were about.
I tended to really like Theta back in the day, though auditioned the one up the line from that. Good definition, slam, and musicality as well as subtle nuance.
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Post by optical on Nov 19, 2021 12:46:19 GMT
In the early 90's I listened to a number of DACS. Most of the ones under 1500 seemed fairly similar. Over 2000 and they started sounding better but in different ways to each other. I listened to a Theta DS Pro V and a Krell in a similar pricepoint. Both were impressive but sounded different and I had my preferences. I may be wrong but I thought the original Benchmark DAC was generally heard to be the opposite of all you value. Cold, unengaging digital at its worst. I could remember wrongly. I’ve not heard or read Monarchy DACs though they were about. I tended to really like Theta back in the day, though auditioned the one up the line from that. Good definition, slam, and musicality as well as subtle nuance. Interesting Bruce, you're correct about the Benchmark being the opposite of my requirements there (from reviews anyway). I just always liked how they looked and seemed some people really liked them. I'm a sucker for a rack mountable piece of engineering with a textured knob . . . A lot echoing your sentiments regarding the Theta stuff too. Sounds like they made stuff properly, looks like it too. Monarchy quite similar by most accounts. |
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Post by macca on Nov 19, 2021 12:50:56 GMT
For the DAC to actually be audibly different from other DACs you need to look at some really bad ones. The two worst stand alone DACs ASR measured are the Audio GD NFB 28-28 and the PS Audio Stellar Gain DAC. They actually have noise and distortion so high it will border on audibility. That doesn't mean they will sound bad but at least they have a chance of sounding 'different.' if it were me I'd just get a Klark Teknik analogue EQ unit and tweak the sound that way. Can lend you one if you want, has balanced connections. Differences can be small or completely inaudible or they can be very obvious indeed. maybe so but what do you think is the cause of those differences? if you can determine that then your choice would be made easier. |
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Post by optical on Nov 19, 2021 12:52:30 GMT
Differences can be small or completely inaudible or they can be very obvious indeed. maybe so but what do you think is the cause of those differences? if you can determine that then your choice would be made easier. Remarkably revealing speakers (although still not Quad territory) and amplifier would be my guess. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 19, 2021 13:15:52 GMT
From your list, this one was actually recommended to me as ripe for modification: www.aliexpress.com/ite...u_id%22%3A%2266437873476%22%7DThe recommender of said DAC is a member, so hopefully he can add some insight as to what reasons one would buy it. Personally, I'd like to try a PCM1702 based DAC, as they do have a stellar rep. I'll be following this thread with interest. |
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Post by macca on Nov 19, 2021 13:22:40 GMT
maybe so but what do you think is the cause of those differences? if you can determine that then your choice would be made easier. Remarkably revealing speakers (although still not Quad territory) and amplifier would be my guess. no I meant differences in DAC sound |
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Post by firebottle on Nov 19, 2021 13:25:22 GMT
I think I would go with the Monarchy, assuming 44.1 or 48kHz is enough.
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Post by misterc on Nov 19, 2021 15:51:10 GMT
The Monarchy's are fine units
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Post by nonuffin on Nov 19, 2021 22:23:35 GMT
I owned a Monarchy M18 a few years ago and it wasn't a patch on the M22 which was far superior sounding. If you are thinking using a stopgap DAC, then I have a Stello Signature for sale on ebay at the moment at a very sensible price: Ebay listing
It is clean sounding with great dynamics and slam, but I paid over 3 grand to best it
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Post by optical on Nov 20, 2021 8:20:52 GMT
I owned a Monarchy M18 a few years ago and it wasn't a patch on the M22 which was far superior sounding. If you are thinking using a stopgap DAC, then I have a Stello Signature for sale on ebay at the moment at a very sensible price: Ebay listing
It is clean sounding with great dynamics and slam, but I paid over 3 grand to best it
Thanks for that, I will certainly take a look. |
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Post by antonio on Nov 20, 2021 11:06:17 GMT
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Post by firebottle on Nov 20, 2021 11:34:28 GMT
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Post by macca on Nov 20, 2021 12:41:02 GMT
looks like you need the remote to adjust volume. Not a bad looking unit except for the typeface that ruins it. No way I'd pay £250 for it new or used though. The world has moved on.
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Post by nonuffin on Nov 20, 2021 15:41:48 GMT
looks like you need the remote to adjust volume. Not a bad looking unit except for the typeface that ruins it. No way I'd pay £250 for it new or used though. The world has moved on. The Audio Alchemy DACs never were great performers, mainly due to the inadequate power supplies they were sold with. As for the ebay seller hoping for 250 notes, he/she lives only in hope for that amount. Way overpriced. |
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Post by optical on Jun 30, 2022 8:32:50 GMT
Bit of a thread resurrection here given the recent interest in older DAC's and chipsets.
I'm interested in trying something with the vintage style sound (slightly favoring texture/organic sound over ultimate transparency and resolution) but can play 24 bit depth and possibly BNC/AES input also.
PCM1704 chips seem about the right area to start, some offerings from the likes of Audio GD (certainly some polarising opinions on said company), schiit could be a good shout also. I tried a Gungnir not so long ago which didn't do a lot wrong but it was up against my current Soekris 1421 so lost out in the resolutiuon and detail stakes. Maybe if I'd have given it a bit longer and waited until I got my Mutec to go with it, things could have been different. Would also love to hear a yggdrasil as apparently the new 'bare bones' version is better than ever.
What have you heard that has really drawn you in?
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Post by stryder5 on Jun 30, 2022 8:50:01 GMT
If I ignore your last post re older DAC’s how about a Soncoz SGD 1 I’m pleased with mine, I think Macca has one too.
Keith ( Puritè Audio) will send you one sale or return ( such a nice man) no upfront cost, pay or return!
Gary
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 30, 2022 8:55:53 GMT
If I ignore your last post re older DAC’s how about a Soncoz SGD 1 I’m pleased with mine, I think Macca has one too. Keith ( Puritè Audio) will send you one sale or return ( such a nice man) no upfront cost, pay or return! Gary I felt the 1421 i took to Maccas was a better sounding DAC. No disrespect to the Soncoz because it actually sounded alright, but that won't give Chris what he's after. |
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Post by optical on Jun 30, 2022 8:55:54 GMT
If I ignore your last post re older DAC’s how about a Soncoz SGD 1 I’m pleased with mine, I think Macca has one too. Keith ( Puritè Audio) will send you one sale or return ( such a nice man) no upfront cost, pay or return! Gary Thanks Gary, I have one, it does sterling work in my lounge system, I love that you can just stream bluetooth to it from your phone whilst browsing youtube/spotify/whatever. After a few teething problems (damaged upon arrival - replaced - new unit did not accept input via AES - another replacement - dodgy LED indicator) I have grown to like it. In my system it's sound is decent but ultimately it lacks the guts I'm after, it's a modern sounding DAC in my system at least. Not a bad DAC by any means but a little on the airy side. Excellent resolution and separation but slightly at the expense of musical soul. |
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Post by optical on Jun 30, 2022 8:59:16 GMT
If I ignore your last post re older DAC’s how about a Soncoz SGD 1 I’m pleased with mine, I think Macca has one too. Keith ( Puritè Audio) will send you one sale or return ( such a nice man) no upfront cost, pay or return! Gary I felt the 1421 i took to Maccas was a better sounding DAC. No disrespect to the Soncoz because it actually sounded alright, but that won't give Chris what he's after. Yeah the Soekris does get closer and retains that resolution of the Soncoz (as it should being more expensive) but I've had DAC's (mostly valve admittedly) like my Musical Paradise which had all the guts of the performance as well as a lot of resolution and clarity to boot, that's the sort of thing I'm after. Again, my TDA1541 valve output DAC does all the texture and midrange glory that you could want but doesn't quite have that window we are all used to now with modern DACs. Yes I want to have my cake and eat it. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 30, 2022 9:06:01 GMT
I felt the 1421 i took to Maccas was a better sounding DAC. No disrespect to the Soncoz because it actually sounded alright, but that won't give Chris what he's after. Yeah the Soekris does get closer and retains that resolution of the Soncoz (as it should being more expensive) but I've had DAC's (mostly valve admittedly) like my Musical Paradise which had all the guts of the performance as well as a lot of resolution and clarity to boot, that's the sort of thing I'm after. Again, my TDA1541 valve output DAC does all the texture and midrange glory that you could want but doesn't quite have that window we are all used to now with modern DACs. Yes I want to have my cake and eat it. I genuinely think that what we are looking for may not exist. If it does, I haven't heard it yet. I can't claim every old DAC would be the same as what I am listening to, because it won't be, and isn't. I think there is more to it than just whether it is R-2R/Multibit/Signe etc....but I do think that matters. Valves.....no idea whether they are a help or a hindrance in this application too, to be honest. |
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Post by optical on Jun 30, 2022 9:16:25 GMT
Yeah the Soekris does get closer and retains that resolution of the Soncoz (as it should being more expensive) but I've had DAC's (mostly valve admittedly) like my Musical Paradise which had all the guts of the performance as well as a lot of resolution and clarity to boot, that's the sort of thing I'm after. Again, my TDA1541 valve output DAC does all the texture and midrange glory that you could want but doesn't quite have that window we are all used to now with modern DACs. Yes I want to have my cake and eat it. I genuinely think that what we are looking for may not exist. If it does, I haven't heard it yet. I can't claim every old DAC would be the same as what I am listening to, because it won't be, and isn't. I think there is more to it than just whether it is R-2R/Multibit/Signe etc....but I do think that matters. Valves.....no idea whether they are a help or a hindrance in this application too, to be honest. They're a bandaid fix. Initially they do improve the things we find lacking in the modern DAC's, but after prolonged comparison (which I have done now with the Soekris) it's clear (or not!) that it is masking or blurring a bit too much of the picture to be considered transparent, at least in the context of the transparency we are now getting with modern (perfectly measuring) DAC's. Indeed it is a bit of a 'pick your poison' debate at the moment. Perhaps if you have a system that has a slight tendency towards the dark/lush presentation, the newer perfectly transparent DAC's can provide a nice balance but I still haven't really heard one to that gutsy texture that is achievable with vinyl. Is it obtainable? Who knows, but the result wil be worth trying and chasing, that much I know. Yes it's not as simple as this chip vs that implementation but generally is seems that multiple (x2/4 per side) older chips incorporated into well sorted circuits with proper power supplies for both digital and analogue sections along with a load of smoothing caps, yields the better results. I know that statement seems obvious but it's surprising how many of the designs omit some of that design brief, be it an exercise in cost cutting or indeed saving those particular implementations for their very high end models. Wadia, Mark Levinson etc. Mark Levinson 360s DAC - Multiple PCM1704 and DSP chips per side, sorted power supply, quality inputs . . . . £2k+ used . . . . |
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Post by misterc on Jun 30, 2022 9:28:02 GMT
For Chris I would suggest the levinson 360's a real quality dac, penty of texture, depth and reality plus that ease of sound bomb proof build quality, they just work really well and they a rather good at music to. Its a really good place to start, and bags of potential inside have improved at least 20+ over the years, still have one in Wadiamiester dac vault, just one of those dacs that puts a smile on your face 
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 30, 2022 9:38:06 GMT
I genuinely think that what we are looking for may not exist. If it does, I haven't heard it yet. I can't claim every old DAC would be the same as what I am listening to, because it won't be, and isn't. I think there is more to it than just whether it is R-2R/Multibit/Signe etc....but I do think that matters. Valves.....no idea whether they are a help or a hindrance in this application too, to be honest. They're a bandaid fix. Initially they do improve the things we find lacking in the modern DAC's, but after prolonged comparison (which I have done now with the Soekris) it's clear (or not!) that it is masking or blurring a bit too much of the picture to be considered transparent, at least in the context of the transparency we are now getting with modern (perfectly measuring) DAC's. Indeed it is a bit of a 'pick your poison' debate at the moment. Perhaps if you have a system that has a slight tendency towards the dark/lush presentation, the newer perfectly transparent DAC's can provide a nice balance but I still haven't really heard one to that gutsy texture that is achievable with vinyl. Is it obtainable? Who knows, but the result wil be worth trying and chasing, that much I know. Yes it's not as simple as this chip vs that implementation but generally is seems that multiple (x2/4 per side) older chips incorporated into well sorted circuits with proper power supplies for both digital and analogue sections along with a load of smoothing caps, yields the better results. I know that statement seems obvious but it's surprising how many of the designs omit some of that design brief, be it an exercise in cost cutting or indeed saving those particular implementations for their very high end models. Wadia, Mark Levinson etc. Mark Levinson 360s DAC - Multiple PCM1704 and DSP chips per side, sorted power supply, quality inputs . . . . £2k+ used . . . . The intersting part for me is how vinyl still manages (at least here) to trump all of this digital wizardry. Thinking in that way, the spec and measuring bragging rights that everyone seems to be chasing, can't be the be all and end all of the resultant listening performance. there must be something else that is critical, and they are not doing it to these modern day dacs, or the new chips can't be worked the same way? I just don't know. I have had DACs here that lead the way on ASR for measurements. I have got a DAC that they would lambast, and it is doing a far more capable job than the leader of the pack does. I don't understand why this is, but i can't ignore how much more i am enjoying digital with it in situ. The only thing i can really point to is probably the power supply and the output stage. They are significant in the Parasound, and it looks like the power supplied have been separated throughout the DAC. I don't recall seeing this in other DACs i have had, but then again it may have been done differently. |
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Post by stryder5 on Jun 30, 2022 9:45:48 GMT
If I ignore your last post re older DAC’s how about a Soncoz SGD 1 I’m pleased with mine, I think Macca has one too. Keith ( Puritè Audio) will send you one sale or return ( such a nice man) no upfront cost, pay or return! Gary Thanks Gary, I have one, it does sterling work in my lounge system, I love that you can just stream bluetooth to it from your phone whilst browsing youtube/spotify/whatever. After a few teething problems (damaged upon arrival - replaced - new unit did not accept input via AES - another replacement - dodgy LED indicator) I have grown to like it. In my system it's sound is decent but ultimately it lacks the guts I'm after, it's a modern sounding DAC in my system at least. Not a bad DAC by any means but a little on the airy side. Excellent resolution and separation but slightly at the expense of musical soul. Did you have an earlier one before the ESS hump had been eliminated? Gary |
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Post by optical on Jun 30, 2022 9:50:50 GMT
Thanks Gary, I have one, it does sterling work in my lounge system, I love that you can just stream bluetooth to it from your phone whilst browsing youtube/spotify/whatever. After a few teething problems (damaged upon arrival - replaced - new unit did not accept input via AES - another replacement - dodgy LED indicator) I have grown to like it. In my system it's sound is decent but ultimately it lacks the guts I'm after, it's a modern sounding DAC in my system at least. Not a bad DAC by any means but a little on the airy side. Excellent resolution and separation but slightly at the expense of musical soul. Did you have an earlier one before the ESS hump had been eliminated? Gary No, made sure it was the revised version as I pulled the trigger a year or so after the first review. Not sure that would have made all that much difference although would have improved the midrange granted. |
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Post by macca on Jun 30, 2022 11:45:24 GMT
They're a bandaid fix. Initially they do improve the things we find lacking in the modern DAC's, but after prolonged comparison (which I have done now with the Soekris) it's clear (or not!) that it is masking or blurring a bit too much of the picture to be considered transparent, at least in the context of the transparency we are now getting with modern (perfectly measuring) DAC's. Indeed it is a bit of a 'pick your poison' debate at the moment. Perhaps if you have a system that has a slight tendency towards the dark/lush presentation, the newer perfectly transparent DAC's can provide a nice balance but I still haven't really heard one to that gutsy texture that is achievable with vinyl. Is it obtainable? Who knows, but the result wil be worth trying and chasing, that much I know. Yes it's not as simple as this chip vs that implementation but generally is seems that multiple (x2/4 per side) older chips incorporated into well sorted circuits with proper power supplies for both digital and analogue sections along with a load of smoothing caps, yields the better results. I know that statement seems obvious but it's surprising how many of the designs omit some of that design brief, be it an exercise in cost cutting or indeed saving those particular implementations for their very high end models. Wadia, Mark Levinson etc. Mark Levinson 360s DAC - Multiple PCM1704 and DSP chips per side, sorted power supply, quality inputs . . . . £2k+ used . . . . The intersting part for me is how vinyl still manages (at least here) to trump all of this digital wizardry. Thinking in that way, the spec and measuring bragging rights that everyone seems to be chasing, can't be the be all and end all of the resultant listening performance. there must be something else that is critical, and they are not doing it to these modern day dacs, or the new chips can't be worked the same way? I just don't know. I have had DACs here that lead the way on ASR for measurements. I have got a DAC that they would lambast, and it is doing a far more capable job than the leader of the pack does. I don't understand why this is, but i can't ignore how much more i am enjoying digital with it in situ. The only thing i can really point to is probably the power supply and the output stage. They are significant in the Parasound, and it looks like the power supplied have been separated throughout the DAC. I don't recall seeing this in other DACs i have had, but then again it may have been done differently. Soncoz SGD1 has separate linear supplies for analogue and digital sections. |
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Post by macca on Jun 30, 2022 11:48:19 GMT
Did you have an earlier one before the ESS hump had been eliminated? Gary No, made sure it was the revised version as I pulled the trigger a year or so after the first review. Not sure that would have made all that much difference although would have improved the midrange granted. audibility of the ESS 'hump' has never been tested to my knowledge. It's highly unlikely that it would be audible though. there are plenty of ESS DACs that have it still. Soncoz were the first to figure out a way of eliminating it. |
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but I'm more interested in peoples experiences of chip implementations of old vs new DAC's.
