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Post by robbiegong on Nov 10, 2021 22:12:07 GMT
I've been really reading and exploring preamps of late - never had a stand alone preamp but would appreciate thoughts here. They say you should try and hear one or two, if you can, which pretty much seems to be the best case scenario for kit in general. I'm in no hurry as I don't really have any spare dosh  BUT, I guess I want to talk about them, hear others experiences, recommendations etc I wouldn't be surprised if there's one or two out there, not costing daft dough that I'd love in my set-up, it's just finding it, that one that improves on what you've got. On a slight side-note: Some of the proper vintage stuf going for big bucks, when they do come up - Yamaha C2-X, Yamaha CX800, Yamaha CX 10000 (special Centennial Series)  Sansui C2301 etc etc etc Talk to me guys ! lets talk pre's (SS ones)  |
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Post by sq225917 on Nov 10, 2021 23:58:14 GMT
Bought or made? If you want totally neutral rolling your own is easier.
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Post by electronumpty on Nov 11, 2021 0:32:03 GMT
Another can of worms opens!🪱🪱
Does your amp have a power amp only facility then ?
You'll hear a DCB1 pre on Saturday btw.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2021 7:07:14 GMT
Bought or made? If you want totally neutral rolling your own is easier. 100% agree with this. |
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2021 8:00:30 GMT
pre and power amp should be considered together. prefer my DCB! with my Krell KS50S but my Philips Black Tulip is the best match for the NAD. And the Krell KSA100 is best straight from the DAC. All horses for courses.
DCB1 is a good place to start, they occasionally come up for sale for £300/£400 or so.
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 11, 2021 11:12:30 GMT
Another can of worms opens!🪱🪱 Does your amp have a power amp only facility then ? You'll hear a DCB1 pre on Saturday btw. Another can of worms opens!🪱🪱 -  Does your amp have a power amp only facility then ? I believe it doesYou'll hear a DCB1 pre on Saturday btw - cool  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 11:25:02 GMT
There was a DCB1 (with a phono stage) for sale on AoS by Emmings. I was tempted…
Funnily enough, it sold - £375 delivered.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2021 11:31:43 GMT
There was a DCB1 (with a phono stage) for sale on AoS by Emmings. I was tempted… Funnily enough, it sold - £375 delivered. Yeah, good for the money.....but not if it's got an Alps blue in. Some of the old boards weren't as good as the newer ones either. A DCB1 in Turbo mode (1.2A) and running a decent set of film and foil caps, is a very decent place to start. |
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 11, 2021 11:40:37 GMT
There was a DCB1 (with a phono stage) for sale on AoS by Emmings. I was tempted… Funnily enough, it sold - £375 delivered. Yeah, good for the money.....but not if it's got an Alps blue in. Some of the old boards weren't as good as the newer ones either. A DCB1 in Turbo mode (1.2A) and running a decent set of film and foil caps, is a very decent place to start. It's my birthday today, do you have one of these for me?  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2021 11:41:18 GMT
Yeah, good for the money.....but not if it's got an Alps blue in. Some of the old boards weren't as good as the newer ones either. A DCB1 in Turbo mode (1.2A) and running a decent set of film and foil caps, is a very decent place to start. It's my birthday today, do you have one of these for me? Happy Birthday.... No. 🤣🤣 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 11:42:51 GMT
Happy Birthday!
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Post by antonio on Nov 11, 2021 14:42:26 GMT
Happy Birthday Robbie, have a great day.
Alan (Firebottle) is going to mod a Chinese pre amp for me, you are welcome to give it a try since I'm away at the moment, I have told him I was in no rush but when he reads this he may well give us an update. He may think it not good enough to replace your internal Sansui pre, I honestly don't know.
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 11, 2021 14:58:49 GMT
I guess the hope, aspiration is towards something that will improve on, (not take away), from what I'm currently getting.
So what I'm led to believe a good pre does/adds - speed, definition, detail, nuance, air to the party, if you get it right, by way of better components, an optomised circuit and significantly reduced noise (electronic hash).
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Post by electronumpty on Nov 11, 2021 16:51:31 GMT
Happy birthday , there are plenty of options.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2021 21:06:04 GMT
I guess the hope, aspiration is towards something that will improve on, (not take away), from what I'm currently getting. So what I'm led to believe a good pre does/adds - speed, definition, detail, nuance, air to the party, if you get it right, by way of better components, an optomised circuit and significantly reduced noise (electronic hash). A good preamp doesn't add anything. The recording is the recording. Most preamps remove transparency, resolution, macro and micro detail, imaging..., or the can emphasise leading edges...etc A top class preamp should be invisible. As if the music is just happening. I'm not talking about "sounding live" or anything like that, but when you get the system right, there is no influence on what you hear that draws your attention towards the equipment. Things like Alps blue pots, SMPS, brass connections.....they all take things away. The best preamps I have heard (only two of them) completely vanished. As if they weren't even in the chain. First time this happened in my presence was when misterc brought his baby £20k Liquid Music preamp around. I thought the Neurochrome 8x2 pre I had was good. In comparison, it really wasn't. The second time was when we put the BT2 together. If Tony hadn't have shown me his LM preamp....I wouldn't have known what was possible, and that drove me to harass Angus about our own thing. The BPBP preamp I heard was of this ilk too, but not quite. Same with the DCB1, but you have to be careful about what you buy. So, here's what I recommend looking out for: 1 - It must have a stepped attenuator 2 - Absolutely NO SMPS 3 - Change any brass connections to copper 4 - Avoid gain 5 - Use OCC wiring if you can. There is a lot to be gained from trying to get something from the DIY sector and a DCB1 really isn't a bad preamp. It can be better, but it's hard to fault if you can get a decent one for £400-500 I haven't seen anything off the shelf that I would buy, so good luck. If Andy is bringing his around to use with your Sansui in Amp mode, I think you'll probably be sold one one. |
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 11, 2021 21:47:09 GMT
I guess the hope, aspiration is towards something that will improve on, (not take away), from what I'm currently getting. So what I'm led to believe a good pre does/adds - speed, definition, detail, nuance, air to the party, if you get it right, by way of better components, an optomised circuit and significantly reduced noise (electronic hash). A good preamp doesn't add anything. The recording is the recording. Most preamps remove transparency, resolution, macro and micro detail, imaging..., or the can emphasise leading edges...etc A top class preamp should be invisible. As if the music is just happening. I'm not talking about "sounding live" or anything like that, but when you get the system right, there is no influence on what you hear that draws your attention towards the equipment. Things like Alps blue pots, SMPS, brass connections.....they all take things away. The best preamps I have heard (only two of them) completely vanished. As if they weren't even in the chain. First time this happened in my presence was when misterc brought his baby £20k Liquid Music preamp around. I thought the Neurochrome 8x2 pre I had was good. In comparison, it really wasn't. The second time was when we put the BT2 together. If Tony hadn't have shown me his LM preamp....I wouldn't have known what was possible, and that drove me to harass Angus about our own thing. The BPBP preamp I heard was of this ilk too, but not quite. Same with the DCB1, but you have to be careful about what you buy. So, here's what I recommend looking out for: 1 - It must have a stepped attenuator
2 - Absolutely NO SMPS
3 - Change any brass connections to copper
4 - Avoid gain
5 - Use OCC wiring if you can. There is a lot to be gained from trying to get something from the DIY sector and a DCB1 really isn't a bad preamp. It can be better, but it's hard to fault if you can get a decent one for £400-500 I haven't seen anything off the shelf that I would buy, so good luck. If Andy is bringing his around to use with your Sansui in Amp mode, I think you'll probably be sold one one. Thanks for the musings Olster, appreciated. I guess this is your approach with the BT2 ? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2021 22:01:09 GMT
A good preamp doesn't add anything. The recording is the recording. Most preamps remove transparency, resolution, macro and micro detail, imaging..., or the can emphasise leading edges...etc A top class preamp should be invisible. As if the music is just happening. I'm not talking about "sounding live" or anything like that, but when you get the system right, there is no influence on what you hear that draws your attention towards the equipment. Things like Alps blue pots, SMPS, brass connections.....they all take things away. The best preamps I have heard (only two of them) completely vanished. As if they weren't even in the chain. First time this happened in my presence was when misterc brought his baby £20k Liquid Music preamp around. I thought the Neurochrome 8x2 pre I had was good. In comparison, it really wasn't. The second time was when we put the BT2 together. If Tony hadn't have shown me his LM preamp....I wouldn't have known what was possible, and that drove me to harass Angus about our own thing. The BPBP preamp I heard was of this ilk too, but not quite. Same with the DCB1, but you have to be careful about what you buy. So, here's what I recommend looking out for: 1 - It must have a stepped attenuator
2 - Absolutely NO SMPS
3 - Change any brass connections to copper
4 - Avoid gain
5 - Use OCC wiring if you can. There is a lot to be gained from trying to get something from the DIY sector and a DCB1 really isn't a bad preamp. It can be better, but it's hard to fault if you can get a decent one for £400-500 I haven't seen anything off the shelf that I would buy, so good luck. If Andy is bringing his around to use with your Sansui in Amp mode, I think you'll probably be sold one one. Thanks for the musings Olster, appreciated. I guess this is your approach with the BT2 ? Absolutely....but only because that's what we learned from making changes to the stuff we bought off the shelf. |
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 11, 2021 22:07:15 GMT
Cool, get a BT2 over this way to Gong Towers, for evaluation, if it does the bus', hits the spot, funds will be found somehow, no worries
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2021 22:22:54 GMT
Cool, get a BT2 over this way to Gong Towers, for evaluation, if it does the bus', hits the spot, funds will be found somehow, no worries I'll get one doing the rounds as soon as I can. No problem. |
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Post by electronumpty on Nov 12, 2021 8:16:10 GMT
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 12, 2021 9:13:20 GMT
That's a great thing. I'm glad they've done that. It's a worthwhile addition. |
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Preamps
Nov 13, 2021 5:14:43 GMT
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 13, 2021 5:14:43 GMT
... lets talk pre's (SS ones)Â Why only solid state? You're missing out on some great options imo. I've 4 preamps in favour currently - 1 passive, 1 solid state active, 2 valve actives. The 2 valve preamps are my favourites, and not by a little. Forget the measurements, it's about the music.  |
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 13, 2021 11:01:32 GMT
My favour towards SS is nothing to do with measurements, and is simply because I don't want to do valves, having to replace them etc whenever they fail, that simple. After years of painful downtime, fettling, messing, adjusting, etc the greatest joy for me in this game is just being able to pull a record from the sleeve, place on turntable mat, lower the needle, up the volume a bit, sit back and enjoy the music and system in all it's glory - nothing sweeter. Changing, disconnecting, swapping blah blah and all of that is now avoided as much as is possible, ultimately it's about the music and the joy thereof which I've been savouring for one of my longest trouble free/hassle free periods and I cant tell you how good it feels. Not looking forward to when my Cadenza Black FGS re-tip wears  , plus the whole aligning, dialling in the sweet-spot pain. Until that time comes, I'm not checking out of my room in heaven, as you say, we all say - ultimately, all said and done, 'it's about the music' (and the joy thereof) |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 13, 2021 11:57:46 GMT
My favour towards SS is nothing to do with measurements, and is simply because I don't want to do valves, having to replace them etc whenever they fail, that simple. After years of painful downtime, fettling, messing, adjusting, etc the greatest joy for me in this game is just being able to pull a record from the sleeve, place on turntable mat, lower the needle, up the volume a bit, sit back and enjoy the music and system in all it's glory - nothing sweeter. Changing, disconnecting, swapping blah blah and all of that is now avoided as much as is possible, ultimately it's about the music and the joy thereof which I've been savouring for one of my longest trouble free/hassle free periods and I cant tell you how good it feels. Not looking forward to when my Cadenza Black FGS re-tip wears , plus the whole aligning, dialling in the sweet-spot pain. Until that time comes, I'm not checking out of my room in heaven, as you say, we all say - ultimately, all said and done, 'it's about the music' (and the joy thereof) Yeah, totally understand that. I speak to a few hifi guys and some are saying that the prices make them less attractive these days, and I absolutely agree. Valves do great things in the right kit, bit good solid state designs don't give anything away anymore, IMO. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2021 12:03:48 GMT
What is the build cost on a DCB1?
How does it compare to the others you have tried?
Just trying to put this into perspective.
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Post by macca on Nov 13, 2021 12:31:40 GMT
Depends how fancy you want to make it. The volume pot for example, you can spend a couple of hundred on that alone.
Mine has the Khozmo which are about £180 I think. It's tasty though, like turning the dial on a safe.
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Preamps
Nov 13, 2021 13:51:45 GMT
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 13, 2021 13:51:45 GMT
My favour towards SS is nothing to do with measurements, and is simply because I don't want to do valves, having to replace them etc whenever they fail, that simple. After years of painful downtime, fettling, messing, adjusting, etc ..... Ah yes, I recall something of the painful history now. Although I could never really get my head around it. I've never had any significant system down time. I suspect we have fundamentally different approaches to the hifi thing. Any views of mine will be totally irrelevant to you. Good luck with whatever you choose, may it bring you happiness. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 13, 2021 14:08:45 GMT
What is the build cost on a DCB1? How does it compare to the others you have tried? Just trying to put this into perspective. The DCB1 is a very respectable preamp. If built with a conscious attempt at installing the best parts you can find, it really doesn't have anything to answer to in its price bracket. Build correctly, with the correct parts...you're looking around £500-600, including pretty casework. You could take £100 off that price by using run of the mill casework. |
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 13, 2021 18:01:52 GMT
My favour towards SS is nothing to do with measurements, and is simply because I don't want to do valves, having to replace them etc whenever they fail, that simple. After years of painful downtime, fettling, messing, adjusting, etc ..... Ah yes, I recall something of the painful history now. Although I could never really get my head around it. I've never had any significant system down time. I suspect we have fundamentally different approaches to the hifi thing. Any views of mine will be totally irrelevant to you. Good luck with whatever you choose, may it bring you happiness. Hey Jerry, nothing complicated to get your head around to be totally honest, it's simply been a number of factors that caused down time over a number of years / the journey so, untold upgrading of my the SL1210, which I spent daft amounts - tonearm changes, tonearm re-wiring, Mike New bearing, ETP platter and baring base plate fittings, Paul Hynes Power supply fitting, removing of the original internal powers supple before hand, and more, then amp failure, amp changes etc etc Hence now, the joy of keeping things simple, enjoying the music type thing first and foremost, is the way I now really really appreciate |
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 15, 2021 6:13:37 GMT
Hmm, yes, all that OCD upgrading getting in the way of the music.
A totally different approach to hifi than mine. I really do have trouble getting my head round it!
A valve preamp would very likely be no fuss at all. Generally it's the big power valves and associated gubbins in power amps that can be troublesome.
Just get yourself some conrad johnson vintage valve preamp loveliness, a new set of valves, and enjoy the music as never before. It's what I'm doing.
It's punted every solid state pre I've heard into the long grass in terms of musical enjoyment.
I bought a recently serviced example, and it's been fine. If reliability is a concern ask Alan Firebottle to check it out for you.
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BUT, I guess I want to talk about them, hear others experiences, recommendations etc 
Sansui C2301 etc etc etc 
, plus the whole aligning, dialling in the sweet-spot pain. Until that time comes, I'm not checking out of my room in heaven, as you say, we all say - ultimately, all said and done, 'it's about the music' (and the joy thereof)