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Post by hifinutt on Nov 15, 2021 17:56:01 GMT
oh i just love pre amps !!
whats the problem with gain by the way ? all my MFA preamps had gain
just had a lovely allegri plus here sat which was delightful . couldnt live with no remote
my SS favourites include the MFA baby ref v1 , MFA copper classic V2 , bel canto pre 3 vbs with dc3 psu , tom evans vibe with psu , arcam c31 years back
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Post by macca on Nov 16, 2021 8:10:17 GMT
The problem with pre-amp gain is these days you probably don't need it, so your boosting the signal just to attenuate it again.
I suppose that's not actually a problem in itself but it's extra complexity that isn't required.
I think my passive pre has a small SQ advantage over my active one, a visitor who demanded a comparison thought the same.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 16, 2021 8:46:59 GMT
Gain increases noise, so adding extra gain that you don't need is adding more noise.
Or so I understand it.
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Post by macca on Nov 16, 2021 9:00:30 GMT
and distortion too, although on any decent active pre-amp neither is going to be audible.
matching to the power amp is probably the most important thing, input/output impedance and sensitivity. They will be obvious if not right.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 16, 2021 9:08:35 GMT
and distortion too, although on any decent active pre-amp neither is going to be audible. matching to the power amp is probably the most important thing, input/output impedance and sensitivity. They will be obvious if not right. Yup. I'd agree with that. |
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 16, 2021 10:08:29 GMT
oh i just love pre amps !! whats the problem with gain by the way ? all my MFA preamps had gain just had a lovely allegri plus here sat which was delightful . couldnt live with no remote my SS favourites include the MFA baby ref v1 , MFA copper classic V2 , bel canto pre 3 vbs with dc3 psu , tom evans vibe with psu , arcam c31 years back some experience there Phil  |
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Preamps
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Post by hifinutt on Nov 17, 2021 20:53:50 GMT
Yes settled down a bit now !!
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Preamps
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Post by hifinutt on May 23, 2022 11:06:00 GMT
One of my lovely bel canto pre amps is going soon so looking at alternatives . One being the ps audio bhk signature sh.however there seem to be lots of discussion about volume control problems so think will give a miss
The e1x is a possibility but i dont need the dac so thats a waste of money . A esoteric c03 would be nice but they are rare and ££££
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 23, 2022 11:12:15 GMT
One of my lovely bel canto pre amps is going soon so looking at alternatives . One being the ps audio bhk signature sh.however there seem to be lots of discussion about volume control problems so think will give a miss The e1x is a possibility but i dont need the dac so thats a waste of money . A esoteric c03 would be nice but they are rare and ££££ Are you in Birmingham? Happy to bring a BT2 round for a listen. |
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Post by misterc on May 23, 2022 11:25:11 GMT
A esoteric c03 would be nice but they are rare and ££££ HI Phil
The Bacome pre amp is quite warm and a touch fruity, the Eso 03 is a touch more tramsparent thought its a still a touch warm which in quite a few systems is no bad thing.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 11:52:13 GMT
Do you really need more than a Topping Pre-90?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 23, 2022 11:55:12 GMT
Do you really need more than a Topping Pre-90? Depends doesn't it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 11:57:21 GMT
Yes, and No.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 23, 2022 12:00:48 GMT
It does. The Topping isnt gonna float everyones boat in terms of connectivity and aesthetic. Also, there's the sound. Would have to try one |
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Post by misterc on May 23, 2022 12:17:20 GMT
Do you really need more than a Topping Pre-90? I would suggest if you love your music then yes you would, if you are looking for good sounding vanilla pre amp that covers the bases then no.
Here I have two of them, one I use in the lab for hooking up to kit the other is a loan unit. They may well measure very good, however they are quite safe and average sounding. Do Inhave one in any of our systems, er no execpt two which the customers asked for an off board power supply and internal upgrades.
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Post by macca on May 23, 2022 12:41:35 GMT
I love my music, strongly suspect I'd be fine with a Topping Pre-90
Would not consider shelling out £6.5K for the PS Audio, not in my wildest dreams. Would not spend that amount on any item of equipment except loudspeakers. If your only interest is sound quality then there's absolutely no point.
Currently using Philips AH280 'Black Tulip' think it cost me £175 second hand.
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Post by misterc on May 23, 2022 12:51:13 GMT
Martin, A little shocked your reply took that long 
I am going to make the observation that, you do not have to send large sums to gain good pre amp performance and for a good many folks its not even on the radar.
However one observation I have mad eover the years is that a high quality active pre amplifie ris essential for a high performnace audio system *caveat* they are a couple of quality integrated that are really stand out and below £10K they are more than a match for a great many pre power combination.
Personally I cannot achieve the SQ I have without a significanrtly sorted active pre amplifier.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 13:12:07 GMT
And how much does a “significantrly sorted active” pre-amp cost?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 13:13:47 GMT
It does. The Topping isnt gonna float everyones boat in terms of connectivity and aesthetic. Also, there's the sound. Would have to try one It depends if you want looks above sound quality? How many sources do you use? My digital sources are switched through my DAC. The Pre switches between digital and analogue. |
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Post by jandl100 on May 23, 2022 13:20:17 GMT
And how much does a “significantrly sorted active” pre-amp cost? If you have to ask, you can't afford it. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 23, 2022 13:27:36 GMT
It does. The Topping isnt gonna float everyones boat in terms of connectivity and aesthetic. Also, there's the sound. Would have to try one It depends if you want looks above sound quality? How many sources do you use? My digital sources are switched through my DAC. The Pre switches between digital and analogue. The thing is, K, whilst I absolutely respect the measurements that Topping have consistently achieved, there isn't a single piece of their kit that has EVER lasted more than a few days in my system. The sound IS the issue for me. I've tried multiple preamps with Analogue to digital volume control chips, digital control chips etc, and whilst the measurements look exceptional, the listening doesn't quite match up. I'm not making assumptions about the Topping. I would genuinely like to hear one and see for myself, but similarly it cannot be decreed as "all anyone needs" It just doesn't work that way. There are many factors involved and I'm afraid that the aesthetic does matter to people. |
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Post by macca on May 23, 2022 13:37:45 GMT
Martin, A little shocked your reply took that long 
I am going to make the observation that, you do not have to send large sums to gain good pre amp performance and for a good many folks its not even on the radar.
However one observation I have mad eover the years is that a high quality active pre amplifie ris essential for a high performnace audio system *caveat* they are a couple of quality integrated that are really stand out and below £10K they are more than a match for a great many pre power combination.
Personally I cannot achieve the SQ I have without a significanrtly sorted active pre amplifier.
it was your 'If you really love your music' comment I took exception to. Also now I'm retired I've got all day every day to be on your case  I suppose thinking about it a bit more there is the question of how much a pre-amplifier like the Philips would cost today, brand new. It wouldn't be cheap, it would not be as cheap as the Toppihg. I think it would be a couple of grand at least. If the pre-amp in question has a quality phono stage and a DAC built in that's also got to be taken into consideration. My other pre-amp is a DCB1, I think the Khozmo stepped attenuator alone is £120 so that's at least a retail price of £1200 before any of the other components are taken into consideration. It's not possible to offer a pre-amp with quality components in a quality case for beer money, not if a worthwhile profit is to be had. If it's not made in China or Malaysia or somewhere like that then labour is not cheap either, and that would apply to the PS Audio and some others too. £6.5K still seems excessive to me though. I mean what does a pre-amp need to do? Offer input selection and attenuation whilst not mangling the signal, and that's it. I only use one source so I don't even need the input selection. |
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Post by misterc on May 23, 2022 14:02:45 GMT
Martin, A little shocked your reply took that long
I am going to make the observation that, you do not have to send large sums to gain good pre amp performance and for a good many folks its not even on the radar.
However one observation I have mad eover the years is that a high quality active pre amplifier is essential for a high performnace audio system *caveat* they are a couple of quality integrated that are really stand out and below £10K they are more than a match for a great many pre power combination.
Personally I cannot achieve the SQ I have without a significanrtly sorted active pre amplifier.
it was your 'If you really love your music' comment I took exception to. Also now I'm retired I've got all day every day to be on your case  I suppose thinking about it a bit more there is the question of how much a pre-amplifier like the Philips would cost today, brand new. It wouldn't be cheap, it would not be as cheap as the Toppihg. I think it would be a couple of grand at least. If the pre-amp in question has a quality phono stage and a DAC built in that's also got to be taken into consideration. My other pre-amp is a DCB1, I think the Khozmo stepped attenuator alone is £120 so that's at least a retail price of £1200 before any of the other components are taken into consideration. It's not possible to offer a pre-amp with quality components in a quality case for beer money, not if a worthwhile profit is to be had. If it's not made in China or Malaysia or somewhere like that then labour is not cheap either, and that would apply to the PS Audio and some others too. £6.5K still seems excessive to me though. I mean what does a pre-amp need to do? Offer input selection and attenuation whilst not mangling the signal, and that's it. I only use one source so I don't even need the input selection.
Hi Martin
I would expect nothing less 
I will qualify the love the music comment Marin only fair, by this I mean having a musically involving and egaging system that will make you sit and listen to the music you wish to liste to rather than it sounding 'Hey listen to this is X/Y and Z wow'
What I would suggest is look at a pre amplifier that would complient your system, so placing a £6.5K pre amplifier of ANY badge isn't really going to work in your system I feel just by tipping the balance away from what YOU like. The same goes for placing ANY piece of equipment in your system in that region of cost that would produce the same results of upsetting the system balance just from a different angle.
No point in having a £12K pair of speakers if the system can only must £4K worth of performance (no matter what the cost maybe) they will be an imbalance imho.
Jerry:
You are are full of cynicism today, tut, tut. If you have to ask I would suggest a quality active for most chaps here if you are not looking at a BB offering around the 2K mark.
Kevin:
I feel for you a Topping Pre90 is just the ticket
Or for those of you looking for an aesthetically pleasing seriously good pre amp and wish to blow part of your lottery winnings then this is an option for you.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 14:06:17 GMT
Before I splashed out €400 on the Pre90, I read a load of reviews, most of which compared it to more expensive pre amps, and all of the reported that it was transparent.
Sure, it is not likely to be the best, and people may want some colour, or better separation/sound staging, but you are going to pay a lot for that privilege.
Volume switching on the Pre 90 is done by relays. There is an active gain stage, so improvements are likely to be possible here, but at what cost?
£3k for the Benchmark?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 14:09:11 GMT
it was your 'If you really love your music' comment I took exception to. Also now I'm retired I've got all day every day to be on your case I suppose thinking about it a bit more there is the question of how much a pre-amplifier like the Philips would cost today, brand new. It wouldn't be cheap, it would not be as cheap as the Toppihg. I think it would be a couple of grand at least. If the pre-amp in question has a quality phono stage and a DAC built in that's also got to be taken into consideration. My other pre-amp is a DCB1, I think the Khozmo stepped attenuator alone is £120 so that's at least a retail price of £1200 before any of the other components are taken into consideration. It's not possible to offer a pre-amp with quality components in a quality case for beer money, not if a worthwhile profit is to be had. If it's not made in China or Malaysia or somewhere like that then labour is not cheap either, and that would apply to the PS Audio and some others too. £6.5K still seems excessive to me though. I mean what does a pre-amp need to do? Offer input selection and attenuation whilst not mangling the signal, and that's it. I only use one source so I don't even need the input selection.
Hi Martin
I would expect nothing less
I will qualify the love the music comment Marin only fair, by this I mean having a musically involving and egaging system that will make you sit and listen to the music you wish to liste to rather than it sounding 'Hey listen to this is X/Y and Z wow'
What I would suggest is look at a pre amplifier that would complient your system, so placing a £6.5K pre amplifier of ANY badge isn't really going to work in your system I feel just by tipping the balance away from what YOU like. The same goes for placing ANY piece of equipment in your system in that region of cost that would produce the same results of upsetting the system balance just from a different angle.
No point in having a £12K pair of speakers if the system can only must £4K worth of performance (no matter what the cost maybe) they will be an imbalance imho.
Jerry:
You are are full of cynicism today, tut, tut. If you have to ask I would suggest a quality active for most chaps here if you are not looking at a BB offering around the 2K mark.
Kevin:
I feel for you a Topping Pre90 is just the ticket
Or for those of you looking for an aesthetically pleasing seriously good pre amp and wish to blow part of your lottery winnings then this is an option for you.
Are you implying my system is crap? By the way, that pre amp would not get shelf space in my house. Far too much bling. I would rather have the money spent on where it counts, and not where I can see it. |
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Post by antonio on May 23, 2022 14:19:43 GMT
One of my lovely bel canto pre amps is going soon so looking at alternatives . One being the ps audio bhk signature sh.however there seem to be lots of discussion about volume control problems so think will give a miss The e1x is a possibility but i dont need the dac so thats a waste of money . A esoteric c03 would be nice but they are rare and ££££ I've got a Chinese pre amp which Alan (Firebottle) mod'ed, if you trust his work you are welcome to buy/try/borrow/ until you find an Esoteric at an affordable price. I'm sure he will answer any questions since I've never used it. |
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Post by macca on May 23, 2022 14:31:37 GMT
Yes, the styling is OTT on that D'Agostino stuff.
I am too tight to pay extra just for styling, I've no issue with anyone who wants to do that though. I appreciate good aesthetics I just won't pay extra for them. My furniture is not to my taste either, but it was free.
I don't think we can say 'a twenty grand system needs at least a five grand pre-amp.' That's just too simplistic. It's 'magazine thinking', like allocating ten percent of the budget for cables.
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Post by misterc on May 23, 2022 14:33:12 GMT
Are you implying my system is crap? Hello Kev
Fear not that was not my thoughts at all, more you are just very careful with money. The BM pre just even more vanilla and seriously yawn inducing
The D'Aostinio HD pre splits opinion on looks for sure its very marmite for quite a few so I understand that |
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Post by jandl100 on May 23, 2022 14:46:00 GMT
I love the looks of the d'Aggy gear. Yummeee.
I'd defo audition it if it was in my price bracket.
___
There's more to good sound than transparency imo.
Depending on your definition of transparency.
For me, that's lack of smear in the time domain; successive sounds being smoothed into each other.
In my audio lexicon, there's also 'dynamic tracking'; the ability to follow changes in loudness accurately. Not just capturing the outer envelope of extreme loud bits, but (more importantly imo) the ability to follow the smallest scale changes in loudness. For me that's what can bring audio playback to life and help retain the pizzaz of live music making. For me, that's what makes it seem that the musicians are in the room.
A lot of kit falls down on that ime.
Some folks chase a 'smooth' sound, for me that denotes a lack of low level dynamic resolution.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2022 14:50:54 GMT
Are you implying my system is crap? Hello Kev
Fear not that was not my thoughts at all, more you are just very careful with money. The BM pre just even more vanilla and seriously yawn inducing
The D'Aostinio HD pre splits opinion on looks for sure its very marmite for quite a few so I understand that I have too many expensive hobbies to be frivolous on the HiFi spending side of things. I am just about to drop €3k on a heat pump so we can use the pool longer. Trust me, I would prefer to spend it on a pre amp, but I can not be selfish. |
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