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Post by optical on Sept 16, 2021 9:53:56 GMT
Dear all, it's time to bring my 686 up to the standard of most others on here! Power supply-wise anyway. Currently has standard crappy SMPS supply. So what to go for:
- Toroid type - or - James transformers - or - O-CORE traffos - . . . . . (any others to consider??)
Oli, Alan, Angus and others . . . . thoughts much appreciated.
No idea about availability etc either.
Alan - as you will have the honour (should you choose to accept it!) I'd also like to make everything inside which would benefit from it, OCC wiring.
Budget is a consideration, but I guess I'm looking for maximum bang for buck. If it's within a couple of hundred quid from best to worst (performing) then obviously best is best!
Cheers a lot.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 16, 2021 11:06:27 GMT
Dear all, it's time to bring my 686 up to the standard of most others on here! Power supply-wise anyway. Currently has standard crappy SMPS supply. So what to go for: - Toroid type - or - James transformers - or - O-CORE traffos - . . . . . (any others to consider??) Oli, Alan, Angus and others . . . . thoughts much appreciated. No idea about availability etc either. Alan - as you will have the honour (should you choose to accept it!) I'd also like to make everything inside which would benefit from it, OCC wiring. Budget is a consideration, but I guess I'm looking for maximum bang for buck. If it's within a couple of hundred quid from best to worst (performing) then obviously best is best! Cheers a lot. 600va Toroidy Torroid. 4x totally independent secondaries, Youll want some Mundorf power caps.....in fact, do you want Alan to copy mine? Angus designed is specifically for the way the amp works?
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 16, 2021 11:11:51 GMT
Dear all, it's time to bring my 686 up to the standard of most others on here! Power supply-wise anyway. Currently has standard crappy SMPS supply. So what to go for: - Toroid type - or - James transformers - or - O-CORE traffos - . . . . . (any others to consider??) Oli, Alan, Angus and others . . . . thoughts much appreciated. No idea about availability etc either. Alan - as you will have the honour (should you choose to accept it!) I'd also like to make everything inside which would benefit from it, OCC wiring. Budget is a consideration, but I guess I'm looking for maximum bang for buck. If it's within a couple of hundred quid from best to worst (performing) then obviously best is best! Cheers a lot. 600va Toroidy Torroid. 4x totally independent secondaries, Youll want some Mundorf power caps.....in fact, do you want Alan to copy mine? Angus designed is specifically for the way the amp works? Does the Pope wear as silly hat?! . . . . . That's a yes btw . . . Guess that's end of thread then . . . haha.
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Post by electronumpty on Sept 16, 2021 11:16:16 GMT
Someone said Toroidy won't swnd to the uk now, since brexit, can't remember who. That's if your over here of course.
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 16, 2021 11:27:05 GMT
Someone said Toroidy won't swnd to the uk now, since brexit, can't remember who. That's if your over here of course. Constantly (over here) . . . unfortunately.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 16, 2021 11:27:14 GMT
Someone said Toroidy won't swnd to the uk now, since brexit, can't remember who. That's if your over here of course. That was me, but they will....you just have to contact them direct.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 16, 2021 11:28:55 GMT
600va Toroidy Torroid. 4x totally independent secondaries, Youll want some Mundorf power caps.....in fact, do you want Alan to copy mine? Angus designed is specifically for the way the amp works? Does the Pope wear as silly hat?! . . . . . That's a yes btw . . . Guess that's end of thread then . . . haha. 🤣🤣 Well, if I recall, you bought one direct from Tom? If so, your space is greatly limited inside the case, so the one I have would be your best bet. If i had more space, I'd have two traffos etc...bit I haven't.
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 16, 2021 11:31:15 GMT
Does the Pope wear as silly hat?! . . . . . That's a yes btw . . . Guess that's end of thread then . . . haha. 🤣🤣 Well, if I recall, you bought one direct from Tom? If so, your space is greatly limited inside the case, so the one I have would be your best bet. If i had more space, I'd have two traffos etc...bit I haven't. Yes that's correct Oli, one of the two! Makes sense if you've done the legwork successfully and I can be the Edison to your Tesla . . . . BTW I like the fact your profile sig indicates that you are a bloke . . . . I was in two minds up to this point . . . haha
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 16, 2021 11:33:09 GMT
🤣🤣 Well, if I recall, you bought one direct from Tom? If so, your space is greatly limited inside the case, so the one I have would be your best bet. If i had more space, I'd have two traffos etc...bit I haven't. Yes that's correct Oli, one of the two! Makes sense if you've done the legwork successfully and I can be the Edison to your Tesla . . . . BTW I like the fact your profile sig indicates that you are a bloke . . . . I was in two minds up to this point . . . hahaWhere does it say that??? lol
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 16, 2021 11:37:23 GMT
Yes that's correct Oli, one of the two! Makes sense if you've done the legwork successfully and I can be the Edison to your Tesla . . . . BTW I like the fact your profile sig indicates that you are a bloke . . . . I was in two minds up to this point . . . hahaWhere does it say that??? lol Here: (been cracking me up for a good few minutes . . . )
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 16, 2021 11:41:01 GMT
Where does it say that??? lol Here: (been cracking me up for a good few minutes . . . ) 🤣🤣 Why is that there? I can't see it on my page?? That's hilarious..... toxic masculinity on parade right there gents ..
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Post by macca on Sept 16, 2021 12:20:24 GMT
You must have 'gender profile' set to 'visible', the default is 'invisible'.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 16, 2021 12:21:36 GMT
You must have 'gender profile' set to 'visible', the default is 'invisible'. Has that always been there?
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Post by macca on Sept 16, 2021 12:23:35 GMT
I think it has but I wouldn't swear to it under oath.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 16, 2021 12:50:11 GMT
I think it has but I wouldn't swear to it under oath. 🤣 Good lawd ..... I'll have to check the settings shortly
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 16, 2021 20:29:56 GMT
Dual mono all the way, everytime
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Post by macca on Sept 17, 2021 6:40:33 GMT
My understanding is dual mono is better on paper, in the real world not so much.
Either way I would still get the best traffo known to man, regardless of cost.
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 17, 2021 6:47:05 GMT
Dual mono all the way, everytime Indeed it does usually appear on the more costlier (as well as better sounding) items. However space is a factor in the current case. Not sure I could stretch to rehousing it too. More food for thought.
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 17, 2021 6:55:56 GMT
My understanding is dual mono is better on paper, in the real world not so much. Either way I would still get the best traffo known to man, regardless of cost. I think it's a surefire way of guaranteeing best possible performance, it's certainly going to be equal or better than the equivalent non duel mono design. Not often you can do a side-by-side test of a dual mono and non design of exactly the same circuit though . . . .
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Post by macca on Sept 17, 2021 9:11:44 GMT
You might want to have a read of this www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mains-related-hum-and-noise-in-power-amplifiers.26645/#post-912746Most of/all of the electronics theory is over my head but this conclusion is relevant: My experience is following - if the power amplifier is dual-mono design with 2 separated transformers and power supplies, radiated EMF from transformers and rectifiers is not an issue, in case of adequate power amp PCB design. It is also a non-issue if at least a common transformer with separate secondary windings for two channels is used. However, in case of just one common power supply for both channels, the issues are inevitable
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 17, 2021 9:40:48 GMT
You might want to have a read of this www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mains-related-hum-and-noise-in-power-amplifiers.26645/#post-912746Most of/all of the electronics theory is over my head but this conclusion is relevant: My experience is following - if the power amplifier is dual-mono design with 2 separated transformers and power supplies, radiated EMF from transformers and rectifiers is not an issue, in case of adequate power amp PCB design. It is also a non-issue if at least a common transformer with separate secondary windings for two channels is used. However, in case of just one common power supply for both channels, the issues are inevitableThanks Martin, will have a good look at that. Likewise to much of it going over my head, but the important bits in layman's terms are in there too. Of course circuit design and implementation is absolutely key but I think in general if the designer has gone to the trouble of making a more costly 'dual-mono' design in the first place, it is likely that component costs are less of a consideration and therefore they may choose to use the more expensive/better performing ancillaries (caps/J/MOS-fets etc). How much of the performance is directly down to using two traffo's as opposed to one, as I say is probably very difficult to measure or even speculate over, unless you have the two identical circuits, the only difference being one vs two transformers.
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 17, 2021 9:52:46 GMT
You might want to have a read of this www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mains-related-hum-and-noise-in-power-amplifiers.26645/#post-912746Most of/all of the electronics theory is over my head but this conclusion is relevant: My experience is following - if the power amplifier is dual-mono design with 2 separated transformers and power supplies, radiated EMF from transformers and rectifiers is not an issue, in case of adequate power amp PCB design. It is also a non-issue if at least a common transformer with separate secondary windings for two channels is used. However, in case of just one common power supply for both channels, the issues are inevitableThanks Martin, will have a good look at that. Likewise to much of it going over my head, but the important bits in layman's terms are in there too. Of course circuit design and implementation is absolutely key but I think in general if the designer has gone to the trouble of making a more costly 'dual-mono' design in the first place, it is likely that component costs are less of a consideration and therefore they may choose to use the more expensive/better performing ancillaries (caps/J/MOS-fets etc). How much of the performance is directly down to using two traffo's as opposed to one, as I say is probably very difficult to measure or even speculate over, unless you have the two identical circuits, the only difference being one vs two transformers. Haha - just read through it properly . . . Sounds like separate secondary winding's are more crucial than separate transformers. (As eluded to by Oli's first response on the subject).
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 17, 2021 10:49:58 GMT
opticalA well made transformer with FOUR independant windings is akin to having 4 transformers in the box. This is exactly how Angus (bonafide f@cking genius, no bullsh#t) told me to build mine, and is exactly how he is building his. I know whose advice i listen to. Just to set a reminder here, Chris has not got the space in his chassis to put 2x600va transformers in. The traffos may fit, but the required capacitance reservoir, Rectification, soft start and 2x speaker protection boards he will also require will make it impossible to build in to that case. That is why i opted for a custom-made transformer with 4 totally independent secondary windings. There are still space issues, but this approach works really well and has been adopted by others who have the same amplifier.
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Post by firebottle on Sept 18, 2021 10:58:05 GMT
I have done a direct A-B on two amps, one with standard transformers and one with SMPS. Adding a second tx or SMPS widened the image dramatically in both cases.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2021 11:28:09 GMT
I have done a direct A-B on two amps, one with standard transformers and one with SMPS. Adding a second tx or SMPS widened the image dramatically in both cases. There wasnt that issue when we compared the soundstage of my upgraded 686 to your 2x SMPS286, IIRC?
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Post by firebottle on Sept 18, 2021 12:30:43 GMT
No, the twin smps286 was up to snuff.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2021 12:40:36 GMT
No, the twin smps286 was up to snuff. Thats my point.....my single tranformer didn't give anything away.
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Post by bigbird on Sept 18, 2021 16:40:57 GMT
Tom told me that one single 800va traffo with 4 windings into two power 686 boards was as good as two separate traffo(real dual mono) performance wise . So that’s what I did . It saved space and money and meant I could fit a potted and shielded one in there too for the radiated field
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2021 18:43:13 GMT
Tom told me that one single 800va traffo with 4 windings into two power 686 boards was as good as two separate traffo(real dual mono) performance wise . So that’s what I did . It saved space and money and meant I could fit a potted and shielded one in there too for the radiated field That Traffo won't fit either.....the casework is very diminutive as he used SMPS with the ones he built. Still a great looking Traffo though 😍😍 Tom is right BTW, as is Angus, and me by default 😁
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bigbird
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Post by bigbird on Sept 18, 2021 21:44:40 GMT
Tom told me that one single 800va traffo with 4 windings into two power 686 boards was as good as two separate traffo(real dual mono) performance wise . So that’s what I did . It saved space and money and meant I could fit a potted and shielded one in there too for the radiated field That Traffo won't fit either.....the casework is very diminutive as he used SMPS with the ones he built. Still a great looking Traffo though 😍😍 Tom is right BTW, as is Angus, and me by default 😁 Ah ok yeah I forgot the cases were smaller . Any reason why you couldn’t cut a hole in the top of the case and have the lovely toroidy pot poking through a little ? Could look quite cool
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