|
|
Post by brian2957 on Jan 7, 2022 11:14:58 GMT
I've tried the Viborg polycarb-bodied (?) plug on the DAC and then the amp and didn't like it in either place. Looks like a jewel but lost a good bit of detail and openness in the upper mids and HF. Bass was bigger but not quite as well defined. The Iego copper/gold or the Martin Kaiser silver plated are working better for me. On the Audiolab 6000CDT I have a Martin Kaiser silver plated IEC on a lower gauge kettle lead that came with my previous preamp 30 years ago. Just for a laugh I popped in the Viborg and a Belden that had been terrible on the DAC. It improved things significantly on the CD transport. That was a surprise! I figured if a mains lead won't make a difference anywhere it would be on the CD transport and if it did, would be a negative result like on the DAC. Wrong, it bettered the sound. Another Audiolab 6000CDT user here Bruce. Which of the cables you have tried sound best with the CDT? |
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Jan 7, 2022 13:32:42 GMT
Another Audiolab 6000CDT user here Bruce. Which of the cables you have tried sound best with the CDT? Hi Brian, I currently am liking a Harmonic Tech 75Ohm OCC Pure Silver. MCRU does by the meter or Gothic does them finished with good Aeco RCA's.
The Belden/Canare is nice but stiff and needs break in before it starts to see into the music. I also noted that when I played on repeat for many hours, i'd get some static ticking in the left channel. I first thought there was a problem with the 6000CDT, but it went away when I switched from the Belden to another coax cable. I note that both Harmonic Tech, Oyaide, and Neotech have an anti-static layer in their cables. Maybe the Belden doesn't? The Black Cat was just a bit too much detail for my already somewhat resolving system and distracted from the musicality.
(If you want BNC, which the 6000CDT doesn't need, the Aeco is nice but their new version BNC is pretty dear like the Oyaide connectors. I'd check out at the Atlas BNC connector for a DIY if going that direction.) |
|
|
|
Post by brian2957 on Jan 7, 2022 14:19:22 GMT
Thanks Bruce, I'll have a look. I'm currently using a Fisual optical cable, and it sounds pretty good. I'm always interested in what others are liking too.
|
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Jan 16, 2022 19:54:32 GMT
Today I re-terminated my 30 year old speaker cables, MIT MH-750 Biwire, using the bananas by KLE Innovations. Actually, I hesitate to call them bananas since they are the Z-plug type which I tend to prefer. One advantage of the KLEI is that they can be stacked piggyback, so one could use bi-wire cables on a speaker not set up for bi-wire, which will make direct comparison easier on some speakers. The MIT cables are rather engineered: inline 22x9cm boxes with who knows what inside them; For each cable, the black side has an enamelled wire running around the outside of the insulation in the opposite direction as the stranded wire inside, and the red side has two enamelled wires running outside. So, those need to be sanded down to bare metal at the ends. The main insulation is Teflon. In the centre of the stranded wire hides a solid core wire with its own Teflon skin. So, yes it was a bit of a pain. Fortunately, one side just needed the spades popped off and the z-plugs soldered in their place with some fresh flux. The other side had been ‘fixed’ several years ago in a bodge job (by me) that failed to recognise the nature of the enamelled wires.
So, some fresh work was required that removed a couple inches.  KLEI speaker plugs by BruceW, on Flickr |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 16, 2022 22:18:58 GMT
Today I re-terminated my 30 year old speaker cables, MIT MH-750 Biwire, using the bananas by KLE Innovations. Actually, I hesitate to call them bananas since they are the Z-plug type which I tend to prefer. One advantage of the KLEI is that they can be stacked piggyback, so one could use bi-wire cables on a speaker not set up for bi-wire, which will make direct comparison easier on some speakers. The MIT cables are rather engineered: inline 22x9cm boxes with who knows what inside them; For each cable, the black side has an enamelled wire running around the outside of the insulation in the opposite direction as the stranded wire inside, and the red side has two enamelled wires running outside. So, those need to be sanded down to bare metal at the ends. The main insulation is Teflon. In the centre of the stranded wire hides a solid core wire with its own Teflon skin. So, yes it was a bit of a pain. Fortunately, one side just needed the spades popped off and the z-plugs soldered in their place with some fresh flux. The other side had been ‘fixed’ several years ago in a bodge job (by me) that failed to recognise the nature of the enamelled wires.
So, some fresh work was required that removed a couple inches. KLEI speaker plugs by BruceW, on Flickr Industrious as ever Bruce. Those KLE Z plugs look decent. |
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Jan 17, 2022 1:41:09 GMT
Well done Bruce, that looks a nice job, has it improved the sq or was this done for piece of mind after 30yrs.
|
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Jan 17, 2022 9:08:08 GMT
Well done Bruce, that looks a nice job, has it improved the sq or was this done for piece of mind after 30yrs. Those old spades are a bit too much to faff with if I move the speakers every time I'm doing more than casual listening. And I couldn't use the cables on the Maggies, which aren't bi-wire. As I determine whether the Maggies will replace my Proacs, I've been experimenting a lot more with speaker placement and coming to the conclusion that I need either speaker out into the room where it can't stay. So I need to move the speakers for each listening session. |
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Feb 1, 2022 21:23:35 GMT
Today I tried the piggyback function of the KLEI speaker plugs to connect the bi-wire MIT cables to the single-wire Maggie .7. The Maggies sure did appreciate the extra current delivery of the MIT cables over Colin Wonfor's LS25, and the MIT are a bit more neutral and resolving than the LS25 though both are very good overall.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on Feb 1, 2022 22:06:35 GMT
Today I tried the piggyback function of the KLEI speaker plugs to connect the bi-wire MIT cables to the single-wire Maggie .7. The Maggies sure did appreciate the extra current delivery of the MIT cables over Colin Wonfor's LS25, and the MIT are a bit more neutral and resolving than the LS25 though both are very good overall. Sound like a decent cable. |
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Feb 1, 2022 22:44:50 GMT
Recently a 14 year old first gen 3D took apart a ls40 lol
|
|
|
|
Post by antonio on Feb 2, 2022 1:45:06 GMT
Interesting MisterC, have any members on here tried your speaker cables, the only off putting factor would be the 'price'.  |
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Feb 2, 2022 8:20:01 GMT
Interesting MisterC, have any members on here tried your speaker cables, the only off putting factor would be the 'price'.  Keep in mind that the EWA LS40 is still £925 for 3Mtrs, so only 25% less than the Coherent 3D speaker cables... not that such fits into my economy these days. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on Feb 2, 2022 10:12:59 GMT
Interesting MisterC, have any members on here tried your speaker cables, the only off putting factor would be the 'price'. Keep in mind that the EWA LS40 is still £925 for 3Mtrs, so only 25% less than the Coherent 3D speaker cables... not that such fits into my economy these days. How much are the 6D? |
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Feb 2, 2022 10:59:33 GMT
Keep in mind that the EWA LS40 is still £925 for 3Mtrs, so only 25% less than the Coherent 3D speaker cables... not that such fits into my economy these days. How much are the 6D? I could tell you, but I get nosebleeds at that height!
BTW: people tend to resent spending money on cables, but I guess it's worth doing a comparative listen. If it isn't much of an improvement, I won't spend the money. If it makes as much difference as one of my box components, then perhaps I should consider spending as much as a box component. Certainly if one can get the same performance for a fraction of that, I'll do it.
In the early 1990's there were 4 true HiFi shops within a mile of each other where I lived in Houston, and another one 2 miles down the road. So, I could borrow 6 broken-in speaker cables for the weekend to directly compare in my system. In the end I decided the MIT contributed about as much to the overall sound as 0.5-1.0 box component and clearly bettered the other speaker cables that were 50-75% of the price. It annoyed me, but the sound difference I was hearing was worth it.
BTW: half of those shops closed their doors over the next five years, but it was a local wealth of selection for a while!
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on Feb 2, 2022 11:20:58 GMT
I could tell you, but I get nosebleeds at that height!
BTW: people tend to resent spending money on cables, but I guess it's worth doing a comparative listen. If it isn't much of an improvement, I won't spend the money. If it makes as much difference as one of my box components, then perhaps I should consider spending as much as a box component. Certainly if one can get the same performance for a fraction of that, I'll do it.
In the early 1990's there were 4 true HiFi shops within a mile of each other where I lived in Houston, and another one 2 miles down the road. So, I could borrow 6 broken-in speaker cables for the weekend to directly compare in my system. In the end I decided the MIT contributed about as much to the overall sound as 0.5-1.0 box component and clearly bettered the other speaker cables that were 50-75% of the price. It annoyed me, but the sound difference I was hearing was worth it.
BTW: half of those shops closed their doors over the next five years, but it was a local wealth of selection for a while!
Speaker cables have (IME) been massively overlooked. 90% of audiophiles will tell you that they don't make a difference, but they do and the resulting change can be as significant as changing a box. I completely agree with you there. The cost is another issue entirely. Most cables are made from the same stuff, plain old OFC in various gauges. They get a bit of bling, or fancy dress and get ridiculous asking prices. Cost does not equal performance, and the very fact you can get PC-TRIPLE C for £50 a metre is all the information anyone should need to have to go an build themselves a rather superb set of cables. If folks can get past the hero worship, the bling value and brand blindness, the world of high performance for sensible outlay is there.....you can do it yourself. |
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Feb 2, 2022 11:24:41 GMT
Actually it was a very early version I believe was sold for £375 on ebay, a chap just emailed his findings in to me before Xmas, we have not made 3D cables for maybe 12 years at least?
|
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Feb 2, 2022 11:40:28 GMT
I could tell you, but I get nosebleeds at that height!
BTW: people tend to resent spending money on cables, but I guess it's worth doing a comparative listen. If it isn't much of an improvement, I won't spend the money. If it makes as much difference as one of my box components, then perhaps I should consider spending as much as a box component. Certainly if one can get the same performance for a fraction of that, I'll do it.
In the early 1990's there were 4 true HiFi shops within a mile of each other where I lived in Houston, and another one 2 miles down the road. So, I could borrow 6 broken-in speaker cables for the weekend to directly compare in my system. In the end I decided the MIT contributed about as much to the overall sound as 0.5-1.0 box component and clearly bettered the other speaker cables that were 50-75% of the price. It annoyed me, but the sound difference I was hearing was worth it.
BTW: half of those shops closed their doors over the next five years, but it was a local wealth of selection for a while!
Speaker cables have (IME) been massively overlooked. 90% of audiophiles will tell you that they don't make a difference, but they do and the resulting change can be as significant as changing a box. I completely agree with you there. The cost is another issue entirely. Most cables are made from the same stuff, plain old OFC in various gauges. They get a bit of bling, or fancy dress and get ridiculous asking prices. Cost does not equal performance, and the very fact you can get PC-TRIPLE C for £50 a metre is all the information anyone should need to have to go an build themselves a rather superb set of cables. If folks can get past the hero worship, the bling value and brand blindness, the world of high performance for sensible outlay is there.....you can do it yourself. I'm sure that's true in the main. It was interesting to look at websites by Neotech or Harmonic Tech and see their upper offerings with verious complicated contstructions. They look rather expensive to design, construct, and terminate. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on Feb 2, 2022 12:09:14 GMT
Speaker cables have (IME) been massively overlooked. 90% of audiophiles will tell you that they don't make a difference, but they do and the resulting change can be as significant as changing a box. I completely agree with you there. The cost is another issue entirely. Most cables are made from the same stuff, plain old OFC in various gauges. They get a bit of bling, or fancy dress and get ridiculous asking prices. Cost does not equal performance, and the very fact you can get PC-TRIPLE C for £50 a metre is all the information anyone should need to have to go an build themselves a rather superb set of cables. If folks can get past the hero worship, the bling value and brand blindness, the world of high performance for sensible outlay is there.....you can do it yourself. I'm sure that's true in the main. It was interesting to look at websites by Neotech or Harmonic Tech and see their upper offerings with verious complicated contstructions. They look rather expensive to design, construct, and terminate. Absolutely, but you try telling an audiophile in the UK that Neotech make very impressive cables. They'll laugh in your face because it doesn't say Dueland/ Western Electric, or have tinned copper inside. It's ridiculous. I visited a guy before Covid broke out and he was raving about this "oil impregnated cotton braided" vintage western electric speaker cable he'd bought off some guy in Holland. He'd paid an absolute fortune for it. Over £1k IIRC. I took my then Spotfire cables over. They absolutely annihilated the WE stuff. The guy turned to me and said "They must be really expensive cables to do that to WE copper" They were £380. He was crushed. However, instead of accepting that the WE stuff was Sh#t, he carried on with them as his mates LOVE them. Funnily enough, when covid kicked off and he had no visitors, he was the only one left listening to them, and he didn't like them then. I wasn't making the Spotfire cables by this point as they'd been replaced by the Graphene ones, but I couldn't get that after Brexit, so I pointed him at some Furutech OCC. He wrote to me later and detailed how he'd known all along (since my visit) that the WE wasn't as good. He'd only carried on with it because of bragging rights. |
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Feb 2, 2022 13:52:14 GMT
I'm sure that's true in the main. It was interesting to look at websites by Neotech or Harmonic Tech and see their upper offerings with verious complicated contstructions. They look rather expensive to design, construct, and terminate. Absolutely, but you try telling an audiophile in the UK that Neotech make very impressive cables. They'll laugh in your face because it doesn't say Dueland/ Western Electric, or have tinned copper inside. It's ridiculous. I visited a guy before Covid broke out and he was raving about this "oil impregnated cotton braided" vintage western electric speaker cable he'd bought off some guy in Holland. He'd paid an absolute fortune for it. Over £1k IIRC. I took my then Spotfire cables over. They absolutely annihilated the WE stuff. The guy turned to me and said "They must be really expensive cables to do that to WE copper" They were £380. He was crushed. However, instead of accepting that the WE stuff was Sh#t, he carried on with them as his mates LOVE them. Funnily enough, when covid kicked off and he had no visitors, he was the only one left listening to them, and he didn't like them then. I wasn't making the Spotfire cables by this point as they'd been replaced by the Graphene ones, but I couldn't get that after Brexit, so I pointed him at some Furutech OCC. He wrote to me later and detailed how he'd known all along (since my visit) that the WE wasn't as good. He'd only carried on with it because of bragging rights. Sad, but shows how we can be hostage to the expectations of others. Annoying that most of Neotech's offerings at HFC are silver plated, it's hard to find just good copper without silver on their offerings. Also, I've never seen their upper lines for sale anywhere but their prices are stratospheric. |
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Feb 2, 2022 20:54:27 GMT
Actually it was a very early version I believe was sold for £375 on ebay, a chap just emailed his findings in to me before Xmas, we have not made 3D cables for maybe 12 years at least?  The website lists Coherent 3D speaker cables 3M for £1250 |
|
|
|
Post by lurch on Feb 3, 2022 11:53:47 GMT
Actually it was a very early version I believe was sold for £375 on ebay, a chap just emailed his findings in to me before Xmas, we have not made 3D cables for maybe 12 years at least? The website lists Coherent 3D speaker cables 3M for £1250 Well that's me buggered then, I need a 3.5m pair and a 1.5m pair plus a pair of jumpers. 😲😲😲 |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
|
Post by Bigman80 on Feb 3, 2022 12:10:26 GMT
The website lists Coherent 3D speaker cables 3M for £1250 Well that's me buggered then, I need a 3.5m pair and a 1.5m pair plus a pair of jumpers. 😲😲😲 If you want me to buy the SAEC stuff for you and then send it down, just let me know |
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Feb 3, 2022 12:15:42 GMT
...I need a 3.5m pair and a 1.5m pair plus a pair of jumpers. 😲😲😲 Jumpers... I've always had bi-wire speakers and bought bi-wire cables. Word was that both the Von Schweikert's and the Proac's sounded noticeable better that way rather than good quality jumpers, not to even mention the rubbish brass jumpers the Proacs come with.
But now that I'm changing speaker cables, I've been thinking about best quality jumpers without the criminal prices often listed for such things. I'm going to try the shortest jumper imaginable: 2 tinned copper Molex ring terminals connected by 6mm of OCC 14 AWG soldered. Then the rings will be attached to the binding posts where they cinch down directly into the crossover board inside. Completely reversible with just a socket wrench and screwdriver. it seems that the best commercial jumper should not be able to better that setup.
...oh by the way, once I get and approve the SAEC speaker cables I may be ready to sell the mighty MIT MH-750 bi-wires which are 3.6+ meters.
|
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Feb 13, 2022 18:24:04 GMT
In anticipation of some non-biwire speaker cables, I was considering options on the Proac Response OneSC that are generally agreed to sound better when biwired. Perhaps a significant part of the issue is these massive (brass?) binding posts? So, why not do the jumper inside the box clamped right up against the circuit board which should minimise resistance and the amount of wire needed.
I got some Molex copper ring terminals and soldered 14AWG wire into them. It only needed 10mm so the gauge and quality of wire should not be so significant, right?
Emm, it looks clever but sounds like a step down in sound quality, maybe two steps. Maybe this crossover design just doesn't work as well when not biwired? Before giving up, maybe change the wire? Go up to 12 gauge? That just seems ridiculous for 10mm, not enough resistance in that short space to constrict current, and the problem was one of detail across the frequency spectrum and also sense of space. Plus, I'd have to pry the Molex collar open to fit a 12AWG wire.
I did only use basic tri-rated wire so I replaced that with Neotech OCC copper wire, and was hoping for some improvement but really didn't expect much of 10mm.
Wrong, what a difference! two significant steps up in detail across the frequency spectrum. Much better and I might be able to live with this without missing the biwire. Interestingly the midrange vocals present a little different than through the same speaker cable biwired. The vocals have a sense of greater clarity but is that slightly less weight? Not sure and I'll have to see if that changes over the next couple days. The bass does have good definition and texture so assuming it's not a current/gauge thing, but....
|
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Mar 29, 2022 11:43:33 GMT
I'm trying to work out a replacement for my MIT MH-750 Bi-wires without a loss in SQ. I tried jumpers made from Neotech OCC 14 AWG but am losing a little HF detail and openness with the MIT bi-wire joined at a single speaker input... and losing more with the single-wire SAEC SPC-850.
I've been assuming it is the Proacs which are renown for preferring a bi-wire config. But anyway am trying a few things to determine a solution. The diary is a bit full the next five days so may not make any progress this week.
|
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Apr 5, 2022 15:16:01 GMT
One annoying aspect of moving my Proac's into place each day for a proper focused listening session is that they seem a bit uneven across the listening axis. A couple degrees left or right can change the HF performance from stellar to a bit veiled and dull. So that makes setup a bit more fiddly.
On one hand, Stereophile measurements show it to have a suckout from 2k-5kHz when the stand is too low for one's sitting position. But my ears are only 1.5-2 inches above the tweeter, so unsure if that is enough to be the likely cause?
Of course it's also a function of how they interact with the room, and the speakers do seem to prefer to be angled a bit more away from the right wall than the left.
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Apr 5, 2022 15:38:52 GMT
2 inches is more than enough to cause that issue, I'd consider raising them up by that much by whatever means necessary. At least to check.
I never heard a Proac I didn't like but they were always out of my price range back in the day.
|
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Apr 5, 2022 19:10:33 GMT
I have found over the years Bruce that tweeter placement is criticle, if you find the image is wandering with ZERO other adjustments to the system.
Look at the amplifier output voltage first, then check line level from pre to amp again no more than around 3mv difference max between channels (less is better here), then check the source to pre amp voltgaes. If these are fine and not moving radically, then it could be a componnets in the x/over misbehaving.
One thing I have with woith proac's over the years, made sure you have the Seaker heght height absolutely level on both speakers, use a laser pointer for this. I have listned to a single degree down bubble on one speaker throw the whole system well out.
Worth a look Bruce
|
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Apr 5, 2022 21:39:08 GMT
2 inches is more than enough to cause that issue, I'd consider raising them up by that much by whatever means necessary. At least to check. I never heard a Proac I didn't like but they were always out of my price range back in the day. I have found over the years Bruce that tweeter placement is criticle, if you find the image is wandering with ZERO other adjustments to the system. Look at the amplifier output voltage first, then check line level from pre to amp again no more than around 3mv difference max between channels (less is better here), then check the source to pre amp voltgaes. If these are fine and not moving radically, then it could be a componnets in the x/over misbehaving. One thing I have with woith proac's over the years, made sure you have the Seaker heght height absolutely level on both speakers, use a laser pointer for this. I have listned to a single degree down bubble on one speaker throw the whole system well out. Worth a look Bruce Right, will have a look at these. After measuring, my ears are 4" higher than the tweeter centres... that's a bit! I'm wondering if I can get away with tilting the speakers up precisely to reach ear level so that I don't have to raise the whole thing 100mm? That would make moving them each day a bit easier, and the speakers and seating positions will be consistent. I suppose that could be iffy. Well for test purposes I can cobble together solid 100mm platforms for the speaker stands. |
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Apr 5, 2022 21:56:45 GMT
Ideally Bruce if you an keep the tweeter centres roughly 3 drgress from the centre line of your ears that a great place to start. Also start ny having the tweeter just set so they (if you use a laser pointer) would just brsh past the outside of your head ears
600mm is the golden height for the speaker stands, but you can experiment with heights, its quite often over looked speaker heights yetit is a very improtant aspect to have correct
|
|
The website lists Coherent 3D speaker cables 3M for £1250
