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Post by stevew on Oct 29, 2021 19:44:55 GMT
Here's an interesting question for down the road: if one has a good DAC, could one just insert a Mutec MC-3+ between and be done with it instead of buying a next tier player/streamer (up from Fidelized NUC > microRendu)? Talking SQ, not other factors so much. Yeah. I think so. Someone, somewhere put forward the hypothesis that an Ares ii with a Mutec would elevate it to a Pontus/Venus I have nothing to contradict this, but as soon as it was plumbed in I knew. |
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Post by antonio on Oct 30, 2021 1:34:18 GMT
Then of course you'd still be after that upgraded streamer.
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 2, 2021 14:11:03 GMT
Due to my solid brick interior walls and an internet connection on the first floor, I get internet to my HiFi via a pair of bridged WiFi routers and then from the one in my lounge run ethernet to a switch next to the HiFi. I recently read something about more issues through WiFi that could effect the amount of work the streamer would need to do to get all packets and handle timing optimally. I had no idea if this was true but thought it an easy test to move my networked attached storage (NUC) from the 1st floor into the lounge and onto the same switch as the streamer. The change was easy, but there was no change to the SQ that I could be sure of. In fact I noticed there was a very slight annoying quality to the music now. I spent a few minutes doing a mental inventory and could only guess that perhaps it was because the NUC’s SMPS power supply was now plugged into the HiFi distribution box and was throwing some noise onto the mains feeding the HiFi.
I put the NUC back upstairs and things were back to normal.
Since I was playing around and had a half hour, I switched the network gear and the DAC to opposite shelves and rearranged the switches. I have three small switches cascaded feeding the HiFi and Sky box, but in the new place on the shelf the CAT cable to the microRendu does not route ideally. So I changed the cabling so that the first switch was the top one and the output to streamer was the bottom switch. The cables now look a little better routed.
Unfortunately, the sense of naturalness and open ease was slightly less than before my changes. Subtle but a slight step backwards. What could be causing that? I’ve probably dressed a cable or two inadequately… no, I don’t see it. It looks fine and all I did was change input to top and output to bottom switch. I put things back so the bottom switch received the input from the router and the top switch fed out to the streamer. Yes, the sense of openness, ease and naturalness was slightly better.
Right. For some reason the final switch in the cascade needs to have nothing on top of it constraining the metal case in any way for things to sound most natural. That’s an analog-like property so doesn’t make sense, but the only thing I can guess at. I do recall that damping to the switch cases in my system usually had an effect that was, on balance, negative, so this is consistent with that. Hypersensitive!
OTOH: I did plug a ‘better’ IEC plug and mains cable into the power supply feeding the switches and it made no difference.
So, expectations defied in multiple ways during my lunch hour today. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 2, 2021 14:27:02 GMT
Due to my solid brick interior walls and an internet connection on the first floor, I get internet to my HiFi via a pair of bridged WiFi routers and then from the one in my lounge run ethernet to a switch next to the HiFi. I recently read something about more issues through WiFi that could effect the amount of work the streamer would need to do to get all packets and handle timing optimally. I had no idea if this was true but thought it an easy test to move my networked attached storage (NUC) from the 1st floor into the lounge and onto the same switch as the streamer. The change was easy, but there was no change to the SQ that I could be sure of. In fact I noticed there was a very slight annoying quality to the music now. I spent a few minutes doing a mental inventory and could only guess that perhaps it was because the NUC’s SMPS power supply was now plugged into the HiFi distribution box and was throwing some noise onto the mains feeding the HiFi.
I put the NUC back upstairs and things were back to normal.
Since I was playing around and had a half hour, I switched the network gear and the DAC to opposite shelves and rearranged the switches. I have three small switches cascaded feeding the HiFi and Sky box, but in the new place on the shelf the CAT cable to the microRendu does not route ideally. So I changed the cabling so that the first switch was the top one and the output to streamer was the bottom switch. The cables now look a little better routed.
Unfortunately, the sense of naturalness and open ease was slightly less than before my changes. Subtle but a slight step backwards. What could be causing that? I’ve probably dressed a cable or two inadequately… no, I don’t see it. It looks fine and all I did was change input to top and output to bottom switch. I put things back so the bottom switch received the input from the router and the top switch fed out to the streamer. Yes, the sense of openness, ease and naturalness was slightly better.
Right. For some reason the final switch in the cascade needs to have nothing on top of it constraining the metal case in any way for things to sound most natural. That’s an analog-like property so doesn’t make sense, but the only thing I can guess at. I do recall that damping to the switch cases in my system usually had an effect that was, on balance, negative, so this is consistent with that. Hypersensitive!
OTOH: I did plug a ‘better’ IEC plug and mains cable into the power supply feeding the switches and it made no difference.
So, expectations defied in multiple ways during my lunch hour today. It sounds like you're teetering on the edge of going backwards there. Tell me, how do you bridge routers? WiFi upstairs in my house is dire |
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 2, 2021 14:43:47 GMT
Due to my solid brick interior walls and an internet connection on the first floor, I get internet to my HiFi via a pair of bridged WiFi routers and then from the one in my lounge run ethernet to a switch next to the HiFi... It sounds like you're teetering on the edge of going backwards there. Tell me, how do you bridge routers? WiFi upstairs in my house is dire Well, I ended up where I started. Three changes, three undo's, back to normal. My config: Modem/router1 > switchA > wifi router2 ... wifi router3 > switchB > streamer
Router1 is for all normal (non-audio) wifi usage. NUC server connected into switchA Router3 is wirelessly bridged to Router2
Some routers have a config option called 'Bridge' mode. When that is an option and one follows the instructions in the User Guide, the one modem becomes slaved to the other and loses it's own identity. So one does not see router3 when looking at WiFi networks. This offers better throughput and dedicated service. I didn't trust that a mesh system would do as well for the HiFi. Of course all audio-connected devices on the network are assigned to static IP addresses which does seem to result in better sound.
If I wasn't trying to optimise for audio, I think that I could have left out router2 and instead bridged router3 directly to router1. The router that needs to have 'Bridge' capabilities is the slave (router3)... at least that's what I believe... with my memory such as it is!
Does that make sense?
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 5, 2021 12:35:36 GMT
Disclaimer: mains electricity can kill and should only worked on by competent persons in this field. These are not instructions nor recommendations to do your own DIY. ...I disconnected the mains cable from the wall and replaced with a standard 2-gang socket. ...I replaced the first meter [from wall to the balanced transformer and distribution block] with 4mm YY flex cable and a standard Masterplug (having no plugs that will take 6mm). That sounded terrible! No dynamics, no soundstage, no sparkle, little detail by comparison to normal. Dull, flat, and lifeless! I kept the 4mm cable but removed the mains plug and direct wired it back into the wall. I had been using some 10 year old copper distribution blocks, but they are a bit bulky and I’d seen some Wago 221 5-way connectors that will handle 6mm, so picked some of those up. They take much less room, are copper, and handle 41 Amp. Much of the dynamics returned as well as the soundstage and much better detail. This level of improvement was not back to my ‘normal’ but fairly close, telling me how MUCH worse a standard Masterplug into a standard MK mains socket is by comparison. Not all the dynamics or sparkle was back but much of it. I also have recently put a Viborg copper IEC plug onto the Modulus-686 amplifier.
So, the remainder could be: 1) the 4mm YY cable vs the 6mm screened, 2) the Viborg IEC plug vs a Martin Kaiser or an Iego IEC, or 3) the Wago 221 connectors vs the bulky older junctions. It will be a process of elimination, in that order. - Changing from a mains plug and wall socket instead to hardwired as a spur behind the socket, made a clear change in dynamics and clarity.
- Changing the 4mm cable back to the 6mm helped a bit further with dynamics, but I realise part of that issue could be that the 4mm was new, unbroken in, and a different design.
- Changing the Viborg IEC plug back to an Iego at the amplifier, it was difficult to tell definitively if it made a change or not. It seemed slightly more defined in the bass but was close enough it could easily have been cognitive bias.
- Changing one ethernet cable in my cascade made the biggest change and got me back to the musical presentation I recognise! Yay! As mentioned earlier I have a cascade of 3 switches just before the microRendu streamer. When I drop to 1 switch it just doesn't sound as good.
Ethernet chain in lounge:
Wifi router (bridged) >cableA> switch1 >cableB> switch2 >cableC> switch3 >cableD> microRendu
- CableA is a 4 meter run of 23AWG solid core, foil shielded
- CableC & cableD are standard CAT7 patch cable, stranded 26AWG SFTP.
- When CableB, C & D are all 26AWG stranded, the HF and LF sound a bit soft and undefined, making the music less engaging.
- When I put 23AWG solid core also in the cableD position it sounds a bit unnatural and too much focus on transients.
- But when I put 23AWG solid core in the cableB position, between the first 2 switches in the chain, it has good frequency balance and good definition in HF and LF but none of the unnatural bits as when used as cableD.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 5, 2021 12:42:41 GMT
Disclaimer: mains electricity can kill and should only worked on by competent persons in this field. These are not instructions nor recommendations to do your own DIY. ...I disconnected the mains cable from the wall and replaced with a standard 2-gang socket. ...I replaced the first meter [from wall to the balanced transformer and distribution block] with 4mm YY flex cable and a standard Masterplug (having no plugs that will take 6mm). That sounded terrible! No dynamics, no soundstage, no sparkle, little detail by comparison to normal. Dull, flat, and lifeless! I kept the 4mm cable but removed the mains plug and direct wired it back into the wall. I had been using some 10 year old copper distribution blocks, but they are a bit bulky and I’d seen some Wago 221 5-way connectors that will handle 6mm, so picked some of those up. They take much less room, are copper, and handle 41 Amp. Much of the dynamics returned as well as the soundstage and much better detail. This level of improvement was not back to my ‘normal’ but fairly close, telling me how MUCH worse a standard Masterplug into a standard MK mains socket is by comparison. Not all the dynamics or sparkle was back but much of it. I also have recently put a Viborg copper IEC plug onto the Modulus-686 amplifier.
So, the remainder could be: 1) the 4mm YY cable vs the 6mm screened, 2) the Viborg IEC plug vs a Martin Kaiser or an Iego IEC, or 3) the Wago 221 connectors vs the bulky older junctions. It will be a process of elimination, in that order. - Changing from a mains plug and wall socket instead to hardwired as a spur behind the socket, made a clear change in dynamics and clarity.
- Changing the 4mm cable back to the 6mm helped a bit further with dynamics, but I realise part of that issue could be that the 4mm was new, unbroken in, and a different design.
- Changing the Viborg IEC plug back to an Iego at the amplifier, it was difficult to tell definitively if it made a change or not. It seemed slightly more defined in the bass but was close enough it could easily have been cognitive bias.
- Changing one ethernet cable in my cascade made the biggest change and got me back to the musical presentation I recognise! Yay! As mentioned earlier I have a cascade of 3 switches just before the microRendu streamer. When I drop to 1 switch it just doesn't sound as good.
Ethernet chain in lounge:
Wifi router (bridged) >cableA> switch1 >cableB> switch2 >cableC> switch3 >cableD> microRendu
- CableA is a 4 meter run of 23AWG solid core, foil shielded
- CableC & cableD are standard CAT7 patch cable, stranded 26AWG SFTP.
- When CableB, C & D are all 26AWG stranded, the HF and LF sound a bit soft and undefined, making the music less engaging.
- When I put 23AWG solid core also in the cableD position it sounds a bit unnatural and too much focus on transients.
- But when I put 23AWG solid core in the cableB position, between the first 2 switches in the chain, it has good frequency balance and good definition in HF and LF but none of the unnatural bits as when used as cableD.
I'm going to investigate this spur idea. I like the idea. |
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 5, 2021 14:16:17 GMT
- Changing from a mains plug and wall socket instead to hardwired as a spur behind the socket, made a clear change in dynamics and clarity.
I'm going to investigate this spur idea. I like the idea. I ought to mention that my component mains cables are also hardwired -- into the distribution block, so no mains plugs except for IEC and therefore no fuses on the cables. But I do have circuit breakers (6A) on input and also on output of the balanced transformer, and of course have fuses inside each HiFi power supply. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 5, 2021 14:34:49 GMT
I'm going to investigate this spur idea. I like the idea. I ought to mention that my component mains cables are also hardwired -- into the distribution block, so no mains plugs except for IEC and therefore no fuses on the cables. But I do have circuit breakers (6A) on input and also on output of the balanced transformer, and of course have fuses inside each HiFi power supply. Yes, I understand 👍 |
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Post by rexton on Nov 6, 2021 7:58:51 GMT
Blimey this all sounds like very in depth tweaking.
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Post by macca on Nov 6, 2021 9:19:08 GMT
Just a bit.
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 6, 2021 12:23:57 GMT
Blimey this all sounds like very in depth tweaking. When I think of tweaking, I see it as an attempt to squeeze more sound out of the system by addressing small things. In this recent case, most of it was making changes I thought would have a small or even no effect on sound and was for practical matters, but found that the sound really suffered. So then I was trying various bits to get back to the sound I had before. The bit with the location of the 23AWG solid core ethernet was found by accident as I was looking for practical room for the multiple switches. |
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 7, 2021 13:16:43 GMT
This is odd. I plumbed the Audiolab 6000CDT into the system and pressed play. Too loud, so lowered the volume, but I noticed that everything is a bit too defined and too sharp. So it sounds good at low volumes but unnatural and exaggerated at moderate and especially high volumes. That's rather different to how the CD transport was in my desktop system and unlikely to be how the unit actually performs for others. What's going on?
I wasn't expecting this drama just by adding a CD transport!
I tried unplugging the streamer from the DAC so that it, the network switches, and related power supplies weren't part of the signal chain. Still an issue. Once I unplugged the streamer/network power supplies from the mains, the effect went away and everything softened up a good bit, maybe too much! One power supply is a chinese adjustable switching supply (GOPHERT CPS-3205) and the other an Uptone Audio LPS1.2... fed by a Meanwell SMPS with DCneg jumpered to mains earth. - So could it be an effect of the two SMPS being removed from the system?
- The slightly bigger effect seemed to be the Meanwell.
Over the years I've noticed that when SMPS DCneg is tied back to mains earth, the sound sharpens up and has a greate sense of detail and definition. All usually good effects. - Could it be that this effect is somehow interacting poorly with the CD transport to sharpen things unnaturally?
- Could it be that the unplugged components, cables, and power supplies are acting as some sort of aerial to attract RFI that over-softens the sound?
- Could it be some of both, together resulting in a big swing in sound?
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Post by macca on Nov 7, 2021 13:34:54 GMT
I think I have experienced your second option. I spent a lot of money trying to fix other things that weren't broken.
Not saying that concussively but when I stripped the entire system down and rebuilt from scratch, removing all unused cables and so forth, the problem vanished.
I don't know if it was the same sort of softness you are describing, more a sort of mush that was most noticeable with cymbals and other percussion being dulled and unnatural, with no decay.
I always paid attention to cable dressing, but now even more so, and any wires/cables not in use I keep well away from the system.
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,398
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 7, 2021 13:56:13 GMT
This is odd. I plumbed the Audiolab 6000CDT into the system and pressed play. Too loud, so lowered the volume, but I noticed that everything is a bit too defined and too sharp. So it sounds good at low volumes but unnatural and exaggerated at moderate and especially high volumes. That's rather different to how the CD transport was in my desktop system and unlikely to be how the unit actually performs for others. What's going on?
I wasn't expecting this drama just by adding a CD transport!
I tried unplugging the streamer from the DAC so that it, the network switches, and related power supplies weren't part of the signal chain. Still an issue. Once I unplugged the streamer/network power supplies from the mains, the effect went away and everything softened up a good bit, maybe too much! One power supply is a chinese adjustable switching supply (GOPHERT CPS-3205) and the other an Uptone Audio LPS1.2... fed by a Meanwell SMPS with DCneg jumpered to mains earth. - So could it be an effect of the two SMPS being removed from the system?
- The slightly bigger effect seemed to be the Meanwell.
Over the years I've noticed that when SMPS DCneg is tied back to mains earth, the sound sharpens up and has a greate sense of detail and definition. All usually good effects. - Could it be that this effect is somehow interacting poorly with the CD transport to sharpen things unnaturally?
- Could it be that the unplugged components, cables, and power supplies are acting as some sort of aerial to attract RFI that over-softens the sound?
- Could it be some of both, together resulting in a big swing in sound?
I have experienced what you have described with SMPS effects, but to me it wasn't an increase in detail etc, it was a leading edge emphasis that seemed artificially exaggerated. I also have noticed that bass is also affected by SMPS. Seemingly losing some definition and weight. That's why I always remove them. |
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 8, 2021 12:53:13 GMT
Once I unplugged the streamer/network power supplies from the mains, the [exaggerated leading edge] effect went away and everything softened up a good bit, maybe too much! - Could it be that the unplugged components, cables, and power supplies are acting as some sort of aerial to attract RFI that over-softens the sound?
I think I have experienced [this]. I spent a lot of money trying to fix other things that weren't broken. Not saying that conclusively but when I stripped the entire system down and rebuilt from scratch, removing all unused cables and so forth, the problem vanished. I don't know if it was the same sort of softness you are describing, more a sort of mush that was most noticeable with cymbals and other percussion being dulled and unnatural, with no decay. I always paid attention to cable dressing, but now even more so, and any wires/cables not in use I keep well away from the system. Right, last eve I tore out the network & streamer related boxes, PSU's, and cables. Had a listen on a coffee break this morming and made a few observations: - Leading edges still seemed soft and details and space muffled
- Oh, try turning up the volume! The frequency balance, leading edges, and body were a a lot more natural once the volume was boosted a bit.
- Still a lack of being able to 'see into' the recording, no sense of air around instruments, resolution could be better, but good natural body on vocals.
- Switched out the SPDIF from an OCC IC (not 75 ohm) to a Belden 1694a Canare 75 Ohm. Now leading edges are better, air around instruments, resolution better. Vocals lost some body and could use more and I'd like to see better into the recording than I am now... that might be solved by a higher quality coax.
Still a long way from Theta Data >AGDL> Muse Model 2 of yesteryear, though the Theta was remarkable in its sonic performance... and in it's poor long-term reliability compared to others.
It was surprising today how big a difference was between the two cables used as coax. I don't fancy spending more money & time on that selection unless I decide to keep the CD transport long-term and am not yet certain both computer-based and CD-based playing will live together well in my context. More to try with that.
The loose cables from yesterday could have contributed to RFI softening, but difficult to say at this point.
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Post by antonio on Nov 9, 2021 1:10:03 GMT
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 9, 2021 8:21:28 GMT
- The Harmonic Technology would fit the rest of my loom. My preferred IC's are OCC from that maker.
- The Atlas are a bit pricier but found locally. Hopefully their new RCA's fit more securely than their old design that started fit a bit loose and did not inspire confidence that they would provide a reliable connection over time.
- The Preffair OCC from AliExpress - have you or anyone you know tried these and compared them to other known quantities? A good price but I always consider something with no substantive user feedback and from AliExpress a crap shoot.
- Oli has liked Acoustic Revive coax, so would be curious how he would describe it's sound compared to others.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
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Posts: 16,398
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 9, 2021 9:27:48 GMT
- The Harmonic Technology would fit the rest of my loom. My preferred IC's are OCC from that maker.
- The Atlas are a bit pricier but found locally. Hopefully their new RCA's fit more securely than their old design that started fit a bit loose and did not inspire confidence that they would provide a reliable connection over time.
- The Preffair OCC from AliExpress - have you or anyone you know tried these and compared them to other known quantities? A good price but I always consider something with no substantive user feedback and from AliExpress a crap shoot.
- Oli has liked Acoustic Revive coax, so would be curious how he would describe it's sound compared to others.
I have been using these for a few months, moaybe 6-8 months: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAEC-PC-Triple-C-conductor-high-quality-line-cable-1-0-7-m-SL1980-0-7-/223093589602?redirect=mobileFor me, they are the best cable i have heard. Easily. In fact, they were so good i just discontinued my Spotfire cable and now recommend these to anyone who asks....but there is a caveat. You have to replace the RCA connections. They are gold plated brass and they are not up to the level the raw cable can provide. I use MPS Pioneer plugs on them and charge a nominal fee to swap the plugs over, for those who require it. There are those that think this cable isnt expensive enough to be as good as X.Y or Z....but thats fine with me. Vs OCC...... It not a tonal shift, or one has more of this or that, it's about the presentation primarily and the CCC cable creates a far clearer picture. Listening to some dire straits and with most cables i have tried, his vocals can seem quite recessed. The 3xC makes the mix sound more cohesive and more together. The difference initially was not ignorable. I havent been back to OCC to refresh my memory but one lasting impression was that the OCC sounded quite uncouth in comparison. The 3xC had far greater refinement. For me, i had to kit my entire rig with the stuff and i have! |
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 9, 2021 10:18:03 GMT
- The Harmonic Technology would fit the rest of my loom. My preferred IC's are OCC from that maker.
- The Atlas are a bit pricier but found locally. Hopefully their new RCA's fit more securely than their old design that started fit a bit loose and did not inspire confidence that they would provide a reliable connection over time.
- The Preffair OCC from AliExpress - have you or anyone you know tried these and compared them to other known quantities? A good price but I always consider something with no substantive user feedback and from AliExpress a crap shoot.
- Oli has liked Acoustic Revive coax, so would be curious how he would describe it's sound compared to others.
I have been using these for a few months, moaybe 6-8 months: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAEC-PC-Triple-C-conductor-high-quality-line-cable-1-0-7-m-SL1980-0-7-/223093589602?redirect=mobileFor me, they are the best cable i have heard. Easily. In fact, they were so good i just discontinued my Spotfire cable and now recommend these to anyone who asks....but there is a caveat. You have to replace the RCA connections. They are gold plated brass and they are not up to the level the raw cable can provide. I use MPS Pioneer plugs on them and charge a nominal fee to swap the plugs over, for those who require it. ... For me, i had to kit my entire rig with the stuff and i have! Sorry, are you including use as coax SPDIF in this? |
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,398
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 9, 2021 10:20:05 GMT
I have been using these for a few months, moaybe 6-8 months: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SAEC-PC-Triple-C-conductor-high-quality-line-cable-1-0-7-m-SL1980-0-7-/223093589602?redirect=mobileFor me, they are the best cable i have heard. Easily. In fact, they were so good i just discontinued my Spotfire cable and now recommend these to anyone who asks....but there is a caveat. You have to replace the RCA connections. They are gold plated brass and they are not up to the level the raw cable can provide. I use MPS Pioneer plugs on them and charge a nominal fee to swap the plugs over, for those who require it. ... For me, i had to kit my entire rig with the stuff and i have! Sorry, are you including use as coax SPDIF in this? Coax, sorry I use the Acoustic Revive. It's not given me any reason to take it out. |
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 16, 2021 11:28:02 GMT
Tweaking case 1: Getting the last few percent of a really resolving and ace system.
Tweaking case 2: Tweaking and fettling is needed to eek out a bit more performance without really moving to the quality of system their ears need.
Sometimes I’m not sure which of those I’m in.
With the CD transport I’ve been getting a purity of leading edges and tone that I’ve been sorely missing for nearly 20 years. There is a background quietness and transient integrity supporting an honesty that I just haven’t gotten in my various computer-based playback (a quietness that is not the result of over-damping and its negative effect on harmonics).
But if I want that integrity in file-based playback, I assume I’ll need some healthy treatment of that (noise, galvanic, etc.), hence considering a DDC as a possible part of the equation.
In other news: it is interesting how much of music reproduction is an issue of timing integrity, how much of noise, and how much of frequencies: [causes].
I’m often surprised how much PRAT, imaging, and engagement [effects] rely on all of these causes and the change of just one cause can impact all of the effects. For instance, change one cable that is not addressing noise but has a slight difference in how it handles certain frequencies, and the result is a sense of better PRAT and imaging and could be confused with a change in noise. Or something that changes subliminal electronic noise can cause one to notice certain frequencies more of feel more connected to the music and its rhythm and pace.
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 20, 2021 18:31:54 GMT
I've tried the Viborg polycarb-bodied (?) plug on the DAC and then the amp and didn't like it in either place. Looks like a jewel but lost a good bit of detail and openness in the upper mids and HF. Bass was bigger but not quite as well defined. The Iego copper/gold or the Martin Kaiser silver plated are working better for me. On the Audiolab 6000CDT I have a Martin Kaiser silver plated IEC on a lower gauge kettle lead that came with my previous preamp 30 years ago. Just for a laugh I popped in the Viborg and a Belden that had been terrible on the DAC. It improved things significantly on the CD transport. That was a surprise! I figured if a mains lead won't make a difference anywhere it would be on the CD transport and if it did, would be a negative result like on the DAC. Wrong, it bettered the sound. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 20, 2021 18:39:33 GMT
I've tried the Viborg polycarb-bodied (?) plug on the DAC and then the amp and didn't like it in either place. Looks like a jewel but lost a good bit of detail and openness in the upper mids and HF. Bass was bigger but not quite as well defined. The Iego copper/gold or the Martin Kaiser silver plated are working better for me. On the Audiolab 6000CDT I have a Martin Kaiser silver plated IEC on a lower gauge kettle lead that came with my previous preamp 30 years ago. Just for a laugh I popped in the Viborg and a Belden that had been terrible on the DAC. It improved things significantly on the CD transport. That was a surprise! I figured if a mains lead won't make a difference anywhere it would be on the CD transport and if it did, would be a negative result like on the DAC. Wrong, it bettered the sound. Hahahaha, that's made me chuckle. Makes absolutely no sense does it. |
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Post by brucew268 on Jan 6, 2022 21:03:55 GMT
Each year as the Christmas tree comes down there is a temporary space in the lounge which often causes a pause to see if there are other furniture (& speaker) options that would work better in a shared use room. It turns out that both the Proac and the Magnepan sound a good bit better in a different place, though both will require me to move them into place each day when I want to do some focused music listening. One of these speakers needs to go this year, so I’m still tweaking, adjusting, and weighing the procs and cons of each. My wife thinks the Magnepan’s are much better aesthetically in the room. Who would have predicted that?
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Post by antonio on Jan 6, 2022 22:58:58 GMT
Which one do you prefer Bruce, or is it a case of horses for courses?
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 6, 2022 23:02:30 GMT
Each year as the Christmas tree comes down there is a temporary space in the lounge which often causes a pause to see if there are other furniture (& speaker) options that would work better in a shared use room. It turns out that both the Proac and the Magnepan sound a good bit better in a different place, though both will require me to move them into place each day when I want to do some focused music listening. One of these speakers needs to go this year, so I’m still tweaking, adjusting, and weighing the procs and cons of each. My wife thinks the Magnepan’s are much better aesthetically in the room. Who would have predicted that? They are strange beasts, Bruce lol. Women, not Maggie's 😉 Good of her to be so accepting though. Top wifing there! |
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Post by brucew268 on Jan 6, 2022 23:38:57 GMT
Which one do you prefer Bruce, or is it a case of horses for courses? Well I've had much longer with the Proacs and I find that while both reward careful placement and tweaking, the Maggie's can make huge shifts in frequency balance/presentation with less than an inch difference in toe-in... which can be maddening.
I know the Proacs very well and have tweaked what needs tweaking, so set up well they do so much right that I just kind of breathe a sigh or relief when switching back to them. With several days already invested in room placement efforts, I spent another hour today experimenting with the Maggies and found a position that has promise. But I still think I need to upgrade the tweeter resistor in the crossover, maybe even the internal wiring.
Ask me again in a month!
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Post by brucew268 on Jan 7, 2022 9:34:59 GMT
To be fair, both speakers are modified from stock. A boring rundown:
Proac 1SCThe original was syrupy, which meant sweet but a bit slow and a little less than ideal in detail and definition. It’s a sense that would subtly reassert itself from time to time and eventually became annoying enough to modify the crossovers.
Changed crossover: Solen caps & sand cast resistor > Mundorf MCap Supreme/ClarityCap ESA & Mundorf M-Resist Supreme
This gave better speed, clarity & detail while still staying sweet with great vocals.
They really need the heavy Target stands and filled with sand, total 25KG each. This gives the bass and midrange the weight and body needed for a natural, balanced presentation. I've tried without sand or half filled, and they really require to be filled up.
Enhanced by either rollerbearings or IsoAcoustics Mini Isopucks between the speaker and stand. The bearings are a bit fiddly and not happy about being bumped by an errant hip.
It’s said that these really sound best using bi-wires and I’ve never heard them with single speaker wires and jumpers, so can’t say.
Magnepan .7 Get rid of the nickel [really?!] tweeter jumpers for good quality copper wire or bypass the jumper altogether on the backside of the panel. Also definitely bypass the fuse if one’s amplifier is up for it (2 Ohm stability with strong watts and current), or at least upgrade the fuse holder to a better quality inline type.
They really benefit from a stand that gets them vertical and off the floor a few inches. MagnaRiser Multi Riser MK7 are great.
Both the soldered tweeter resistor and the user-optional tweeter attenuation resistor are basic sandcast types. The wires are all 16 gauge tinned copper, and not know for their quality. I think I can benefit from upgrading both and have ordered.
The banana sockets are M6 thin-walled tinned copper which can easily tear through overtightening and fixed with ferrous nuts. Replace the nuts with brass and don’t overtighten, or drill out the panel to M8 and use better quality copper binding posts like the CMC. Will then need to replace the M6 ring terminals where the internal speaker wires attach with M8 copper ring terminals.
Setup is crucial and can make the difference between sounding broken and sounding really nice, good enough that the crossovers and banana sockets may not really be necessary for many. Between the dipole and tweeter phasing aspects of the design, one doesn’t have to worry much about side reflections or absorption and the speaker must be toed in so that the tweeter is farther from the listener than the bass panel. In my room the magic happens at 50mm farther, not 40, not 60, not 25mm.
The speakers need to be the right distance from the front wall for good balance between bass, mids, and highs… and that toe-in effects this surprisingly too. Soft furnishings behind the speaker don’t seem a particular problem, and hard dispersive angular surfaces can be good, but reflective flat surfaces behind the speaker are a no no. |
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Post by misterc on Jan 7, 2022 9:45:28 GMT
Over the years bruce I have lost count of how Prozac 1 sc that have been through the lab doors, very good mid range, Maggies I have a soft spot for, can be stunning with the right kit and SPACE
One again though as you have discovered room <> speaker interface is the most critical single element in the way a system sounds regardless of cost. Keep up the blog Bruce, good to read.
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