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Post by brucew268 on Oct 7, 2021 17:17:07 GMT
I need a better name for this blog. It also includes tweaks and experiments. Maybe "staggering in search of Nirvana" but that evokes a bit of a "merry" problem that doesn't really fit. Need to have a think about the right phrase to evoke two steps forward one step back, or inconsistent results in search of my right sound.
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 7, 2021 17:17:43 GMT
Weird. After experimenting with a small bit of bitumen damping on the Cisco 2960G switch’s chassis, different size, different locations, the ‘NO damping’ option gives the most natural presentation of individual sounds in the music but the whole seems slightly unbalanced (frequencies) and busy so not as musically coherent. The smallest amount in a corner gives the music a little more separation and cleans up the busyness but at the expense of natural presentation.
Finally, I went back to one of my previous configs which is 2 small Zyxel switches in daisy chain, so that both clocks are used in the pathway. The overall musicality feels more natural and balanced, though it doesn’t have quite the detail or definition of the Cisco.
I had been considering whether to bypass the internal SMPS power supply in the Cisco and try a 12V linear PSU which I don’t have, so would require time, ordering parts, etc. But now I’m wondering if it would bridge the gap between these two configs musically or if it would be a fruitless exercise with energy and money better spent elsewhere.
I also note that having a patch cable from the Sky box to that switch introduces glare on the Cisco and a veil on the Zyxel, so keep it disconnected until using the telly.
I’d love to try an expensive audiofool switch, especially an Etherregen in part due to its isolation moat feature, but it’s expensive and a transcontinental order not easily returned. Others like Silent Angel Bonn16 or SOTM sNH-10G switches are just too expensive for me to even consider and most of the others I’m a bit suspicious of.
Maybe I should just stick with the Zyxel.
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Post by antonio on Oct 8, 2021 0:01:35 GMT
". The smallest amount in a corner gives the music a little more separation and cleans up the busyness but at the expense of natural presentation." Wow Bruce you must have golden ears, I don't think I'd be able to tell one switch from another   |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 8, 2021 6:28:57 GMT
Weird. After experimenting with a small bit of bitumen damping on the Cisco 2960G switch’s chassis, different size, different locations, the ‘NO damping’ option gives the most natural presentation of individual sounds in the music but the whole seems slightly unbalanced (frequencies) and busy so not as musically coherent. The smallest amount in a corner gives the music a little more separation and cleans up the busyness but at the expense of natural presentation. Finally, I went back to one of my previous configs which is 2 small Zyxel switches in daisy chain, so that both clocks are used in the pathway. The overall musicality feels more natural and balanced, though it doesn’t have quite the detail of definition of the Cisco. I had been considering whether to bypass the internal SMPS power supply in the Cisco and try a 12V linear PSU which I don’t have, so would require time, ordering parts, etc. But now I’m wondering if it would bridge the gap between these two configs musically or if it would be a fruitless exercise with energy and money better spent elsewhere. I also note that having a patch cable from the Sky box to that switch introduces glare on the Cisco and a veil on the Zyxel, so keep it disconnected until using the telly. I’d love to try an expensive audiofool switch, especially an Etherregen in part due to its isolation moat feature, but it’s expensive and a transcontinental order not easily returned. Others like Silent Angel Bonn16 or SOTM sNH-10G switches are just too expensive for me to even consider and most of the others I’m a bit suspicious of. Maybe I should just stick with the Zyxel. You are as mad as me. I like it! |
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 8, 2021 8:11:37 GMT
". The smallest amount in a corner gives the music a little more separation and cleans up the busyness but at the expense of natural presentation." Wow Bruce you must have golden ears, I don't think I'd be able to tell one switch from another Actually, the sound between switches was as obvious as any component change I've ever done. The micro-damping changes are more something where halfway through an album you say:
"There's something about this that's not quite as xxxx as I remember. What is it? But isn't that part better? Maybe. OK, try this small change. Aah, that's better. And a few songs later... but now it has this about the sound of these songs that I know so well. Sheesh, isn't there best of both worlds option?
This is ridiculous, I’m tired of all the fiddling. Just tear it out and go back to what I had… There! Now that is music, why can’t this better commercial switch do that?! Of course it’s not quite as good in the yyyy department, but I certainly enjoy and enter into it better as music not just sonics. …and so on." |
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 10, 2021 18:03:08 GMT
Changed the IEC plug on my preamplifier cable from Martin Kaiser silver to IeGo Gold over Copper. That was a nice change, really enjoying the engaging sound in both fullness and soundstage but have been warned to give it a week before actually making judgements. A week without making any other changes?! Doubt I can do that!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 10, 2021 18:16:59 GMT
Changed the IEC plug on my preamplifier cable from Martin Kaiser silver to IeGo Gold over Copper. That was a nice change, really enjoying the engaging sound in both fullness and soundstage but have been warned to give it a week before actually making judgements. A week without making any other changes?! Doubt I can do that! I use those and have found them to be excellent! Good choice! |
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 15, 2021 17:50:26 GMT
Disclaimer: mains electricity can kill and should only worked on by competent persons in this field. These are not instructions nor recommendations to do your own DIY.
Because an electrician was coming to the house to check that it meets current regs, I wanted to keep him from being distracted by the 6mm cable direct wired into the wall and feeding the balanced transformer and distribution block. So, I disconnected the mains cable from the wall and replaced with a standard 2-gang socket. However, he was going to come back later in the week, so I replaced the first meter with 4mm YY flex cable and a standard Masterplug (having no plugs that will take 6mm).
That sounded terrible! No dynamics, no soundstage, no sparkle, little detail by comparison to normal. Dull, flat, and lifeless!
The sparky’s second visit is done but he’s coming back in two weeks, so need an interim solution.
Today I kept the 4mm cable but removed the mains plug and direct wired it back into the wall. I had been using some 10 year old copper distribution blocks, but they are a bit bulky and I’d seen some Wago 221 5-way connectors that will handle 6mm, so picked some of those up. They take much less room, are copper, and handle 41 Amp.
Much of the dynamics returned as well as the soundstage and much better detail. This level of improvement was not back to my ‘normal’ but fairly close, telling me how MUCH worse a standard Masterplug into a standard MK mains socket is by comparison. Not all the dynamics or sparkle was back but much of it.
Notes: I also have recently put a Viborg copper IEC plug onto the Modulus-686 amplifier. The 4mm YY cable has only the moulded PVC as dielectric. The 6mm cable has a plastic mylar sheath around the wire triple, then a braided screen and then the PVC outer, no silk, cotton or similar.
So, the remainder could be: 1) the 4mm YY cable vs the 6mm screened, 2) the Viborg IEC plug vs a Martin Kaiser or an Iego IEC, or 3) the Wago 221 connectors vs the bulky older junctions. It will be a process of elimination, in that order.
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 24, 2021 19:35:13 GMT
I understand that Bruce, the bloody OS and GUI are the big issues here. However to put this into perspective, my normal streaming front (no issues with OS or UpNP connectivity) if you do just get yourself a 4G mobile router as a private network Happy to demonstrate its potential against a Wadia 270se or Esoteric P1 with Rb word clock. A couple of weeks back I visited a client with a full DCS Vivaldi stack this chap is hardcore CD/SACD, the up sampler is also a streaming bridge built in. So I took along some red book files on a usb stick and played them vis the Vivaldi up sampler. Now very few CD are physically span. Not a big fan of Roon either, great file storage and library abilities 300% but playback Meh My current GUI is a mobile-based Orange Squeeze, so should be no GUI issues for me I would think, right? I also see issues throughout the network chain, though the last step (DAC input) has been decently handled by a microRendu. Most of the changes that I've tried across the chain had an effect, whether positive or negative. Because my internet modem-router is on a different floor and vertical space from my HiFi and all internal walls are solid brick, I've had to use a bridged wifi setup to get to a switch in the listening room. So I expect to try various things: moving my NAS into the same room/switch as the HiFi, change from LMS to UPnP, moving from NAS and streaming to local storage and a player, different player software/OS, power supply changes in this chain (though that gets expensive very fast). But hopefully the CD transport will be enough better than what I'm doing now to be a reference to measure my progress against. Ideally, I'd get a good R2R DAC and an Innuos Zen server/player but can't manage that in the next year. I don't quite understand what you're saying about your normal streaming front or a 4G mobile router. Perhaps you left out a sentence or two in that paragraph?
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Post by misterc on Oct 24, 2021 21:53:30 GMT
Hi Bruce
OK streaming for myself is backwards step in sq, by this I mean using a subscription service rather than on board file based distribution.
Here I have a massive 1 TB fibre pipe with at least 80gb on WiFi
However I only use a private internal network just for controlling the streamer itself very rarely do I actually stream music via the Internet. However I use a mobile D-link (4G Vodafone sim card) to control the internal servers only nothing else interfering on the network like ipads/tv's/40 other devices etc.
Oddly enough it sounds so much better when I do stream music, all I did was fo build a nice 12vdc lps and a quality fibre optical RJ45 cable to the streamer job done
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 25, 2021 7:17:14 GMT
Hi Bruce OK streaming for myself is backwards step in sq, by this I mean using a subscription service rather than on board file based distribution. Here I have a massive 1 TB fibre pipe with at least 80gb on WiFi However I only use a private internal network just for controlling the streamer itself very rarely do I actually stream music via the Internet. However I use a mobile D-link (4G Vodafone sim card) to control the internal servers only nothing else interfering on the network like ipads/tv's/40 other devices etc. Oddly enough it sounds so much better when I do stream music, all I did was fo build a nice 12vdc lps and a quality fibre optical RJ45 cable to the streamer job done I should clarify that I was using the term 'streaming' as anything using Network Attached Storage using LMS or UPnP or the like. I do have a dedicated network for the HiFi, though it also has a connection to the internet. I'll consider your approach as I try various things. |
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Post by antonio on Oct 26, 2021 1:30:52 GMT
Bruce, may I ask why you have chosen the Innuous Zen as your next upgrade, also have you heard any R2R dac's, and how they compare to similar priced over sampling ones? This is not questioning your decisions, only interested.
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 26, 2021 7:57:47 GMT
Bruce, may I ask why you have chosen the Innuous Zen as your next upgrade, also have you heard any R2R dac's, and how they compare to similar priced over sampling ones? This is not questioning your decisions, only interested. Based on various listener reviews it seems that either an Innuos Zen Mk3 or a Lumin U1 Mini is likely to give the best sound for the price range I'm looking at. The Zen's linear power supply is a dual as opposed to the external Zen mini which is single. The Lumin U1 Mini has an internal SMPS but has been described as more natural sounding than some other brand's options, but doesn't come up for sale used as often... and has the outstanding question of whether the power supply would benefit from upgrading, just because it's switching. For Auralic, the G1 seems to be generally listed as good for what it is but everyone who writes about hearing both wants the G2 which is out of my price range (G1 damned by faint praise)... and a couple posters have said they found the Innuos and Lumin a little more natural in head to head with Auralic and some others. The Aurender have been around for a while and may be good but I'm having trouble getting much sense of their comparative sound. Some models are available on the second hand market for more reasonable costs. So that leaves me with Innuos Zen Mk3 as the most likely candidate for price, engineering, likely sound, and decent GUI. Oh, one of the other makes on its own user forum had several complaints of software glitches and issues, can't remember if it was Auralic or something else? I didn't see that for Innuos and Lumin. I did note that most owners of Innuos said the current software version was a big step up in sound quality.
I'd like to hear some R2R DACS but Denafrips Pontus, Holo Spring, Schiit Yggy all seem too seldom seen to likely get a comparison to my Calyx. I keep reading comments that with this generation of R2R we are getting a quality untouchable for less than twice that price 10 years ago. A similar comment was made about the Calyx and similar ten years ago, but whether it is my current DAC, player, or network, I keep finding the performance and musical satisfaction just isn't up to what I had with a Muse Model 2 DAC and Theta Data Basic Transport 20 years ago. I might try to get down to Oli's sometime to hear the Soekris, though I'd need the fully balanced 2541. What makes me more hesitant is... I really don't like all the lights (same issue with the Mutec if I'm ever tempted for the SQ upgrade), and I note the descriptions that say its tonality while brilliant is not the same as most other R2R's. Not a criticism, just a difference to be aware of. BTW, the R2R's mentioned all offer oversampling if I recall, so can switch it on or off as preferred.
I'd love to get over to NEBO and hear what Alan is bringing in 2 weeks, but I have another commitment that day... not that it is an option for you! And then again, they are seldom playing music I know well or in a listening spacewhere I feel confident of what I'm hearing compared to my normal environment or kit. It's more about the overall social experience.
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 26, 2021 9:49:11 GMT
Oh, I forgot to mention. Another option is a DIY server with Euphony as the OS/player software. However, to do that right would be at least a mini-computer that supports PCIe then attach a low noise PCIe USB card, maybe a low noise ethernet, a fanless case, and 2-4 separate linear power supplies for components of the player. That’s a lot of bits, a lot of power supplies, certainly as expensive or more than the players I mentioned, a learning curve on the server setup, and a learning curve with lots of config options for the OS. And I’m wanting to reduce boxes not increase them!
So, I’ll be experimenting as above (24th) to see what SQ changes I get for various changes to my existing config that cost little or nothing. Then evaluate where I’ve got to with each step.
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Post by antonio on Oct 26, 2021 10:29:42 GMT
The reason I asked was the Innuous Zen is liked by many, but I still keep reading negative comments about it. It does seem a while since I've read anything about the Lumin, may be it is one of those products that goes about it's business sounding good and not breaking down, owners therefore are happy and take it for granted. Do have a look at the Magna Audio streamer though, only read very good reports about this one, not only that it has i2s output, and again I have recently read it was not designed as an audio output yet it still seems reviewers prefer it. I'm sure the Theta/Muse was exceptional, but have to admit the last time I heard my Calyx I thought it still sounded good. If ever you do go down to see Oli, make sure you take your Calyx with you, I'd be really interested in how it compares. Not easy I know, but would love to hear the Gustard A26, can be a normal over sampling dac, but can also run NOS, giving a slightly warmer and not as brightly detailed sound. I look forward to how you progress.
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Post by macca on Oct 26, 2021 12:23:54 GMT
If it was me I'd ask Simon SQ about the best way to go. He knows this stuff and won't bullshit you.
I wouldn't give a ha'penny for online or magazine reviews. Most of them don't have the first idea what they're doing and it seems that for them better perceived performance always correlates to higher price. Which is unlikely.
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 26, 2021 14:13:29 GMT
The reason I asked was the Innuous Zen is liked by many, but I still keep reading negative comments about it. It does seem a while since I've read anything about the Lumin, may be it is one of those products that goes about it's business sounding good and not breaking down, owners therefore are happy and take it for granted. Do have a look at the Magna Audio streamer though, only read very good reports about this one, not only that it has i2s output, and again I have recently read it was not designed as an audio output yet it still seems reviewers prefer it. I'm sure the Theta/Muse was exceptional, but have to admit the last time I heard my Calyx I thought it still sounded good. If ever you do go down to see Oli, make sure you take your Calyx with you, I'd be really interested in how it compares...
You are ace at finding things I've never run across. I'd be curious to know where you;ve seen the good comments on Magna and the bad on Innuos. I do think I saw some griping a year or two back but thought those were sorted by the next software updates. I may be wrong.
Yes, the Calyx seems pretty capable and I would like to hear a head-to-head with the new crop and get a sense of scale.
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,398
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 26, 2021 14:16:47 GMT
The reason I asked was the Innuous Zen is liked by many, but I still keep reading negative comments about it. It does seem a while since I've read anything about the Lumin, may be it is one of those products that goes about it's business sounding good and not breaking down, owners therefore are happy and take it for granted. Do have a look at the Magna Audio streamer though, only read very good reports about this one, not only that it has i2s output, and again I have recently read it was not designed as an audio output yet it still seems reviewers prefer it. I'm sure the Theta/Muse was exceptional, but have to admit the last time I heard my Calyx I thought it still sounded good. If ever you do go down to see Oli, make sure you take your Calyx with you, I'd be really interested in how it compares...
You are ace at finding things I've never run across. I'd be curious to know where you;ve seen the good comments on Magna and the bad on Innuos. I do think I saw some griping a year or two back but thought those were sorted by the next software updates. I may be wrong.
Yes, the Calyx seems pretty capable and I would like to hear a head-to-head with the new crop and get a sense of scale.
Looks to be Raspberry pi based? |
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Post by gninnam on Oct 26, 2021 15:51:50 GMT
I use a RaspberryPI 3b with an R-2R DAC and find it works and sounds a treat (using either Moode or Volumio) plus I can play CD's through it too.
Have a 7 inch touchscreen and I printed a very simple case for it which means I don't need to use my phone/tablet/laptop etc to work it.
Also, has Tidal and Volumio connect so I can stream direct from my phone (also I have a 6Tb NAS that has about 1Tb of music on that I can also stream)
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 26, 2021 17:31:21 GMT
This Mano Ultra...
Good: inbuilt linear power supply, pink faun ethernet option, I2S out
Other: no USB out to DAC, endpoint only, so no local storage option (but that is also true of Lumin)
I could be surprised but I assume RaspPi-based is not the big qualitative step up from microRendu 1.4 I'd be looking for. Could be wrong. I haven't yet found any relevant SQ comparisons.
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Post by antonio on Oct 26, 2021 18:43:32 GMT
It can still play your music from a HDD or SSD Bruce although no internal storage. I messaged a dealer in the uk, stevew purchased his streamer from the same one, I was making enquiries for 3 streamers, Electrocompaniet Rena S1, Stack Audio streamer and the Magna Mano. He explained that it was entirely my decision but what would be best for me was to decide how I was going to use it, and maybe which streaming service I would use, also he did say he used the Mano in a multi £000 system and it never let itself down. To be honest it was the one I would have gone for when looking for a streamer, only downside was the cost, I got an Aries for half the price. Do you need usb, if you go for a new dac, you would have to ensure it had a i2s input. It is based on the Pi, but the improvements have been done right according to a review I read. Whether or not it would improve upon your mRendu I don't know, they are in the same ballpark price wise, and in my experience, to get any worth while improvement you have to at least double the cost of the item you are upgrading. The negative reports have been on forums, although I do remember one comment whereby someone felt the Innuous improved upon his Auralic. One thing I do when researching a product, it often shows pics of the product when Googling, click on a photo and it will give a link to were the photo came from, often I have found stuff that is not always listed on the links page  |
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Post by antonio on Oct 27, 2021 13:02:42 GMT
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 27, 2021 15:20:36 GMT
The fact that Magna have built a seemingly well designed component around a PiCore, with a nice LPS, I2S out, and Pink Faun ethernet all speaks well. Hans Beekhuyzen compared it well to an SOTM SMS-200 and AudioEnzo thought it was in a similar league to Auralic (which one in 2016?) says it is respectable. The I2S gives it some interest as possibly one of the only streamers in this price bracket with I2S and should be a bump in quality. But SMS-200 is in a similar tier to my microRendu which leaves me looking for more users and comparisons.
I do note that the makers of Euphony OS & Stylus player have created a Summus server & endpoint, which is interesting, but they give quotes rather than publish prices and my suspicion is they are over £2000 before adding an LPS.
...in any case, this is out of order for me. I first need to test a few configurations in my existing player/network, then compare my DAC to some others, then maybe buy a DAC, then wait for my budget to recover before buying a streamer/player solution. That could be a year away!
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Post by antonio on Oct 27, 2021 15:29:56 GMT
Don't forget it has been improved since then. If I were in your shoes I'd go for the dac first, right , give us yer budget? |
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Post by misterc on Oct 27, 2021 15:44:53 GMT
Good old Hans, harmless fun even if his technical abilitiy is way off, he doesn't seem to have an agenda he is a good antidote for afternoon lethergy
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 27, 2021 16:16:17 GMT
If I were in your shoes I'd go for the dac first, right , give us yer budget? Not there yet! |
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 27, 2021 18:48:51 GMT
The Audiolab 6000CDT arrived today and I put it temporarily in the desktop system. There, I had a few impressions compared music served thru a NUC and a cheap USB>SPDIF converter (Douk): - significantly lower noise floor
- overall greater refinement and ease (so details are more subtle, less obvious)
- good dynamics
- not as strong or defined bass
- not as much energy in the presence region
Some of these can be good or bad based on personal preference. I'm looking forward to putting it into the main rig hopefully this weekend.
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Post by antonio on Oct 29, 2021 13:41:57 GMT
Just for you Bruce, and this is in no way trying to influence you, but just for the record, here's a post from Wigwam
On 19/10/2021 at 14:37, yespsb said:
Quick update. I went with my gut feeling and teamed my Pontus2 up with the Magna Mano Ultra 2 using i2s connectivity and Tidal/Volumio. So far, so good, next step is to compare Tidal v Qobuz and then to exchange my standard TalkTalk hub out for a second hand switch from Cisco/HP/Juniper.
To everyone who help me along the way, a big thanks and to all the i2s naysayers, well I think your fears are misplaced. Cheers Paul
I finally found the time to undertake a proper A/B comparison between Tidal & Qobuz via Volumio and on my system Qobuz was/is miles better. I won't waste your time with the usual hifi clichés but with Qobuz I knew my extensive streaming research had paid off and I have spent all this morning struggling to tear myself away from the music.
Happy ears, happy heart, happy days 👌
I'll still stick with my statement, keep a lookout for a good da c first
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Post by brucew268 on Oct 29, 2021 16:37:03 GMT
Here's an interesting question for down the road: if one has a good DAC, could one just insert a Mutec MC-3+ between and be done with it instead of buying a next tier player/streamer (up from Fidelized NUC > microRendu)? Talking SQ, not other factors so much.
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Post by firebottle on Oct 29, 2021 17:42:06 GMT
Simple answer, yes.
Sounds like you need a demo.
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