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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 18:09:32 GMT
TC1 for me.....just listened again. The Houdini is a bit like Marmite then?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 2, 2020 18:12:09 GMT
Just in case you want to check, I have give you access to the files on the Google Drive. I am really interested in the difference we "hear" between the 2 versions. TC2 for me sounds better balanced, has a better dynamic range and certainly sounds more musical. TC1 is like a "diet" version of TC2. Still, these are just digital files. For me, the proof in the pudding will be playing a track, removing the Houdini, and having another listen. If I reach for my tools while the track is playing without the Houdini, Houdini stays and Arthur keeps £300. If Houdini goes back, I look forward to me £5 box of smarties. I will endeavour to reassess on the Pi. Leave it with me
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 18:15:34 GMT
I would not be surprised if you did prefer TC1. I wish I did, as I would be eating smarties right now.
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Post by stevew on Oct 2, 2020 18:19:12 GMT
Just in case you want to check, I have give you access to the files on the Google Drive. I am really interested in the difference we "hear" between the 2 versions. TC2 for me sounds better balanced, has a better dynamic range and certainly sounds more musical. TC1 is like a "diet" version of TC2. Still, these are just digital files. For me, the proof in the pudding will be playing a track, removing the Houdini, and having another listen. If I reach for my tools while the track is playing without the Houdini, Houdini stays and Arthur keeps £300. If Houdini goes back, I look forward to me £5 box of smarties. What he said... in spade fulls. I was kind of amazed that TC1 was recorded on the same deck.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 18:21:09 GMT
Steve, your feedback is what made me question Oli. I just want to be sure we have the same tracks, as there has already been confusion elsewhere.
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Post by stevew on Oct 2, 2020 18:35:17 GMT
Steve, your feedback is what made me question Oli. I just want to be sure we have the same tracks, as there has already been confusion elsewhere. I can imagine Kevin. Even when I listened via Bluetooth it was quite night and day. However... playing via Audirvana from the NAS into my Pecan Pi dac was totally revealing. I couldn’t listen to FC 1 after hearing FC2. Puzzled therefore over Oli’s findings
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 18:44:23 GMT
Why be puzzled? People like different things. Simple as that
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 2, 2020 18:47:07 GMT
Ok, so i have now listened repeatedly to the two separate samples via the PecanPI.
SO here are my final thoughts on the listening, here in my system.
TC1 has far greater dynamic energy the difference in volume levels of bass is quite staggering. Like someone has literally turned the bass up in volume. OFC they haven't it just isn't making it past the Houdini. Chapmans voice has greater expression of range too. The scale of the performance is taller with TC2 sitting just above speaker height but TC extending higher. The highs and low of TC's voice flicker faster and cleaner. I don't know how to describe that any better but i know what i mean. There is also a feeling of being a more intimate vocal with TC1. Like i am sitting closer to her while she is singing. This also seems to affect the chest/mouth ratio, with TC1 sounding more natural. There is greater crescendo in the chorus as the instruments all kick in with a tighter feel to the timing of everything. feels more in sync.
The big thing for me is i tuned out with TC 2....it didn't capture my attention, sounding far too laid back and there is a false kind of shimmering sound on cymbals and HF too. Hard to describe....sounds kind of wavery, which isn't on TC1 or the digital copy i have.
I am not saying TC2 sounds bad, just picking the bones out of the two samples.
I would pick TC1 every time. It's sharper, more dynamic, more expressive and scales greater heights in terms of keeping my attention.
YMMV
EDIT:
Just Sat the wife down to see whether i am hearing things. She plays Clarinet, Violin and Piano. She is musically talented and like me, loves music. She has a great ear too
I played her TC1, then TC2
Her opinion:
"TC1 sounded free-er....like it was real, more natural. TC2 sounded compressed...like it was being stopped from escaping?"
She has totally picked out exactly what i am hearing. Sorry boys and girls, its unanimous here.
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 2, 2020 18:48:44 GMT
Steve, your feedback is what made me question Oli. I just want to be sure we have the same tracks, as there has already been confusion elsewhere. I can imagine Kevin. Even when I listened via Bluetooth it was quite night and day. However... playing via Audirvana from the NAS into my Pecan Pi dac was totally revealing. I couldn’t listen to FC 1 after hearing FC2. Puzzled therefore over Oli’s findings WHAT? you are puzzled over ME not agreeing with the popular opinion? ? Dont know me very well do you lol
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Post by macca on Oct 2, 2020 18:50:20 GMT
Do you have any old Classical LPs? They might be out of copywrite or not as heavily scrutinised as this mainstream stuff. Personally the first comparison was enough for me, If I was still using vinyl I'd be handing over the £300 for one. Hang on? Has it been revealed which was which? I was talking about the Dire Straits needledrops. I didn't get a chance to listen to the Tracey Chapman before it was taken down. I believe sample one on the Dire Straits drops was with the Houdini and that was the one I preferred.
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 2, 2020 18:51:07 GMT
Just in case you want to check, I have give you access to the files on the Google Drive. I am really interested in the difference we "hear" between the 2 versions. TC2 for me sounds better balanced, has a better dynamic range and certainly sounds more musical. TC1 is like a "diet" version of TC2. Still, these are just digital files. For me, the proof in the pudding will be playing a track, removing the Houdini, and having another listen. If I reach for my tools while the track is playing without the Houdini, Houdini stays and Arthur keeps £300. If Houdini goes back, I look forward to me £5 box of smarties. What he said... in spade fulls. I was kind of amazed that TC1 was recorded on the same deck. I downloaded your original files....as long as TC1 was TC1, we're all good.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 20:45:02 GMT
Ok, so i have now listened repeatedly to the two separate samples via the PecanPI. SO here are my final thoughts on the listening, here in my system. TC1 has far greater dynamic energy the difference in volume levels of bass is quite staggering. Like someone has literally turned the bass up in volume. OFC they haven't it just isn't making it past the Houdini. Chapmans voice has greater expression of range too. The scale of the performance is taller with TC2 sitting just above speaker height but TC extending higher. The highs and low of TC's voice flicker faster and cleaner. I don't know how to describe that any better but i know what i mean. There is also a feeling of being a more intimate vocal with TC1. Like i am sitting closer to her while she is singing. This also seems to affect the chest/mouth ratio, with TC1 sounding more natural. There is greater crescendo in the chorus as the instruments all kick in with a tighter feel to the timing of everything. feels more in sync. The big thing for me is i tuned out with TC 2....it didn't capture my attention, sounding far too laid back and there is a false kind of shimmering sound on cymbals and HF too. Hard to describe....sounds kind of wavery, which isn't on TC1 or the digital copy i have. I am not saying TC2 sounds bad, just picking the bones out of the two samples. I would pick TC1 every time. It's sharper, more dynamic, more expressive and scales greater heights in terms of keeping my attention. YMMV EDIT: Just Sat the wife down to see whether i am hearing things. She plays Clarinet, Violin and Piano. She is musically talented and like me, loves music. She has a great ear too I played her TC1, then TC2 Her opinion: "TC1 sounded free-er....like it was real, more natural. TC2 sounded compressed...like it was being stopped from escaping?" She has totally picked out exactly what i am hearing. Sorry boys and girls, its unanimous here. No worries. Different systems, different ears, different tastes. On my system, I have the opposite, as my wife can't be bothered by music. I was expecting that if I am honest.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 20:46:47 GMT
Hang on? Has it been revealed which was which? I was talking about the Dire Straits needledrops. I didn't get a chance to listen to the Tracey Chapman before it was taken down. I believe sample one on the Dire Straits drops was with the Houdini and that was the one I preferred. If you want the TC Fast Car samples, just drop me an e-mail address and I will grant you access to the files.
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Post by stevew on Oct 2, 2020 20:55:54 GMT
Are we absolutely sure we are all listening to the same files?
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 2, 2020 21:00:43 GMT
Are we absolutely sure we are all listening to the same files? I used the ones that were loaded here first, before they were pilfered by the fuzz. Here they are on my PecanPi: I am not confused over which sample I prefer as they are clearly marked and easy to identify. As long as sample 1 (No Houdini) and Sample 2 (Houdini) have remained as such from recording to right now, there is no confusion here.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 21:01:42 GMT
There is no confusion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 21:06:03 GMT
Something else for me to be educated on please. How can a tonearm with a damping mechanism be deemed as being “rigid”? Why think that adding damping will make an arm any less rigid? You can have a rigid - ultra-rigid - arm, and adding damping isn't going to make it any less rigid. Adding damping attempts to lock the stylus to the groove reducing vertical motion and counter warps damping low frequency resonense. In the 70s you could get a device that you attached to your headshell and did just this. Quite a sophisticated design for such a small thing. I have one. I should dig it out to see if it produces any Houdini-like qualities: www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/243552-z-track-tonearmcartridge-damper/It cost £10 I think. That was when the audio world was a more sane place, of course.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 21:13:34 GMT
I have ordered one. The money back guarantee is enough for me, especially as AK promised to give me £5 worth of smarties if I don't like it. I will be honest with my thoughts, as there is nothing in it for me either way. Just a fiver? I was offered more. Naturally declined, of course.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 21:15:55 GMT
At Angus's request, i shall post this here. "To clarify things for those who keep misquoting me and taking things out of context, my statement to Oliver about the Houdini is with reference to his system, which follows the rigidity principle. This was clearly stated in my earlier message to Oliver. Therefore introducing any unnecessary compliance will negatively impact its performance. “As you know Oliver I have heard a 'soft' system with more than £45,000 worth of equipment and it was one of the most disappointing sounds I have ever heard. Resolution was limited and the sound had negligible impact or presence” I’m not sure why this is taken as an indicator that I am pre-judging or condemning the Houdini, it’s a simple statement of fact regarding that particular system. For all I know a Houdini may well improve it (aforementioned Soft system). Also, as far as I can determine Kevin's system is based on an SL-12x0 Mk2+ with an FX-1200 arm on the original Technics base. In which case it does not classify as a rigid system. There are too many breaks in the arm mounting and the VTA adjustment mechanism has to have clearances otherwise it wouldn’t move. Those clearances are substantially greater than the signals we are trying to retrieve from the disc." So, just to add some context: The conversation between Angus and i in regard to the houdini had been around our RIGID playback devices. IF the Houdini makes an improvement in Kevins system, it will be because it follows the same design ideas as the rest of the arm. Which is what we would expect. Neither of us think the Houdini to be "snakeoil" but understanding where it could and couldn't work is paramount to the findings of this experiment. I think it's also wise to let this go now as 50% of the conversation isnt a member here yet lol. Lets crack on. I must say, those recordings sound very well transferred to digital format. @cageyh how did you do this? Always a place for a Maverick to stick two fingers up to convention.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 21:38:49 GMT
Something else for me to be educated on please. How can a tonearm with a damping mechanism be deemed as being “rigid”? Why think that adding damping will make an arm any less rigid? You can have a rigid - ultra-rigid - arm, and adding damping isn't going to make it any less rigid. Adding damping attempts to lock the stylus to the groove reducing vertical motion and counter warps damping low frequency resonense. In the 70s you could get a device that you attached to your headshell and did just this. Quite a sophisticated design for such a small thing. I have one. I should dig it out to see if it produces any Houdini-like qualities: www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/243552-z-track-tonearmcartridge-damper/It cost £10 I think. That was when the audio world was a more sane place, of course. It all depends where the damper is, and the question is not about the arm being rigid or not. It is about the fact that apparently a screw thread on my VTA base and a junction in my arm makes my system a “soft” system. Still, that was last week, and we have moved on since....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 21:42:41 GMT
I have just compared my Houdini track, to a digital version of the track on Tidal. I think the Houdini version is closer to the digital version. Could it be that Houdini gets us closer to the original master tape, but some people prefer a bit of distortion, which takes us back to the valve vs SS debate.
It’s just as well we are all different.
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 2, 2020 22:21:27 GMT
Ill upload Marks 9 A/B tracks tomorrow, recorded 24/96 on my Sony pcm-10. Ill pull all the metadata from the files so there's zero clues to Which is which.
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 2, 2020 22:23:43 GMT
Jesus that Z track, thats a Sh#t idea.
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Post by stevew on Oct 2, 2020 22:40:31 GMT
Jesus that Z track, thats a Sh#t idea. That’s how I bought some stuff from China.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 2, 2020 22:46:49 GMT
I have just compared my Houdini track, to a digital version of the track on Tidal. I think the Houdini version is closer to the digital version. Could it be that Houdini gets us closer to the original master tape, but some people prefer a bit of distortion, which takes us back to the valve vs SS debate. It’s just as well we are all different. If the Houdini is getting you nearer to the digital version, it's definitely taking the replay in the wrong direction 😉 Anyway, it's been a good bit of fun but I won't be buying one. I hope those that buy one do thoroughly enjoy it. Thanks for making the effort to take us in the journey of discovery with you Kevin. I sincerely appreciate it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 22:48:33 GMT
I have just compared my Houdini track, to a digital version of the track on Tidal. I think the Houdini version is closer to the digital version. Could it be that Houdini gets us closer to the original master tape, but some people prefer a bit of distortion, which takes us back to the valve vs SS debate. It’s just as well we are all different. If the Houdini is getting you nearer to the digital version, it's definitely taking the replay in the wrong direction 😉 Anyway, it's been a good bit of fun but I won't be buying one. I hope those that buy one do thoroughly enjoy it. Thanks for making the effort to take us in the journey of discovery with you Kevin. I sincerely appreciate it. That depends if the master was digitally done, or not. Being honest, I am still not 100% sure at the moment. I like some of the things it does, but sometimes it has me wondering.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 2, 2020 22:49:46 GMT
Ill upload Marks 9 A/B tracks tomorrow, recorded 24/96 on my Sony pcm-10. Ill pull all the metadata from the files so there's zero clues to Which is which. I'll give them a listen....keep tabs on what's what as I'd like to see how many I pick with the Houdini in place.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 2, 2020 22:51:04 GMT
If the Houdini is getting you nearer to the digital version, it's definitely taking the replay in the wrong direction 😉 Anyway, it's been a good bit of fun but I won't be buying one. I hope those that buy one do thoroughly enjoy it. Thanks for making the effort to take us in the journey of discovery with you Kevin. I sincerely appreciate it. That depends if the master was digitally done, or not. Being honest, I am still not 100% sure at the moment. I like some of the things it does, but sometimes it has me wondering. Yes, I'm just pulling your leg matey. It's been very enjoyable to have a listen. I'll do the same tests with Marks files at some point and see how that goes.
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Post by stevew on Oct 3, 2020 7:35:43 GMT
I can imagine Kevin. Even when I listened via Bluetooth it was quite night and day. However... playing via Audirvana from the NAS into my Pecan Pi dac was totally revealing. I couldn’t listen to FC 1 after hearing FC2. Puzzled therefore over Oli’s findings WHAT? you are puzzled over ME not agreeing with the popular opinion? ? Dont know me very well do you lol No you nana. I was puzzling that perhaps I had labelled the files wrongly.
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 3, 2020 7:45:35 GMT
WHAT? you are puzzled over ME not agreeing with the popular opinion? ? Dont know me very well do you lol No you nana. I was puzzling that perhaps I had labelled the files wrongly. Ha! It's normal for HiFi folk to not agree on what they hear. What has impressed me about the Houdini thread, is that we have all respected each others opinion on the files and not decended into Sh#t slinging anarchy! Even if you read in utter disbelief that i heard it so differently to you. I can see why you'd question if there was an issue with the file labelling as it would explain the polar opposites in opinion. By now, i am quite used to being "out-there" lol
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