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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 0:15:13 GMT
I am not talking about you, the comment from Angus.
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Post by antonio on Sept 23, 2020 1:55:44 GMT
I just thought i would post this here, seeing as the Houdini is a topic of interest to some. I was contacted a couple of days ago by an aspiring HiFi dealer about "trialing & Reviewing" the Houdini............I have rejected the opportunity. What i am being told is that this little device is being given to those deemed "influencial" in the HiFi forum world, in order to drum up some momentum to drive sales of this unit. Some of these have been given out, free of charge to said "influencers" Whilst there is nothing wrong with giving out free samples, i do feel it's rather underhanded to give an opinion of the performance of something, IF you don't mention that you got it for free. Unfortunatly, there also appears to be a lot of posts on appearing on forums, starting with "I dont normally write on forums, but the Houdini......." They are basically carbon copies of the same post too. It's happened on WW,PFM and here earlier, by a new member who has now been deleted, blocked and his post removed. This is an obvious marketing or selling tactic and i for one am not having it here. IF any member buys one, and wishes to post their thoughts on their PURCHASE, i welcome your thoughts on the subject. If you were given one free of charge, you may also post your thoughts on it, BUT i insist you declare it's origin and it cost to you. I cannot see a problem with you accepting his offer to try one as long as you declare how much you paid or whether it was given for free. Giving it to 'influential' forum members to review, I think is a good marketing strategy, you've let friends try your Spotfire cables, with a money back offer, similar tactic. Being the 'Big Noise' on this forum I think it was your duty to try it and let members know your thoughts. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 23, 2020 5:39:03 GMT
I just thought i would post this here, seeing as the Houdini is a topic of interest to some. I was contacted a couple of days ago by an aspiring HiFi dealer about "trialing & Reviewing" the Houdini............I have rejected the opportunity. What i am being told is that this little device is being given to those deemed "influencial" in the HiFi forum world, in order to drum up some momentum to drive sales of this unit. Some of these have been given out, free of charge to said "influencers" Whilst there is nothing wrong with giving out free samples, i do feel it's rather underhanded to give an opinion of the performance of something, IF you don't mention that you got it for free. Unfortunatly, there also appears to be a lot of posts on appearing on forums, starting with "I dont normally write on forums, but the Houdini......." They are basically carbon copies of the same post too. It's happened on WW,PFM and here earlier, by a new member who has now been deleted, blocked and his post removed. This is an obvious marketing or selling tactic and i for one am not having it here. IF any member buys one, and wishes to post their thoughts on their PURCHASE, i welcome your thoughts on the subject. If you were given one free of charge, you may also post your thoughts on it, BUT i insist you declare it's origin and it cost to you. I cannot see a problem with you accepting his offer to try one as long as you declare how much you paid or whether it was given for free. Giving it to 'influential' forum members to review, I think is a good marketing strategy, you've let friends try your Spotfire cables, with a money back offer, similar tactic. Being the 'Big Noise' on this forum I think it was your duty to try it and let members know your thoughts. You know Dave, thats a very good point you have made. Certainly one i did not think of. However, my cartridge is not "standard" in terms of thread size for the captive holes and when i was initially offered access to a Houdini, my first though was "theres no way i am taking my cartridge off the headshell and trying to get it to work properly" This was after watching the YT video AK uploaded for Marco at AoS. As for the cables, they were on a loan scheme for well over 12 months. Any feedback returned on their performance was done so within the scheme and was made obvious. People have left feedback after purchasing them and that was clear too. What i didnt do, was throw a load out for free, to encourage feedback that could be argued as being bribed or bought, then charge one group of people one price and then the next lot another price. Thats where my gripe comes into play. I don't discount the anything for anyone. I am a fair guy, so if 'you' buy a pair, it's important for me to know 'you' paid the same as everyone else. Same with the PCB's and the Phonostages. They are all sold at the same price. It's how i sleep well at night. I also don't think i have turned down a loan request IF i have had a set of cables available? |
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 23, 2020 5:44:33 GMT
I am not talking about you, the comment from Angus. Well, in fairness maybe i shouldnt have quoted him as he is not here to say either way, but i can say with confidence that he would listen to one and judge it on merit. He's listened to my rambling for long enough and put his engineering head to one side, and we've made some very interesting discoveries (to us) together. Closed Mindedness...Not in my experience |
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 23, 2020 7:13:23 GMT
I agree with Angus, entirely.
If you want to damp detrimental vibrations, assuming they actually exist, the place to do it is at the armtube bearing or 'in the headshell.
Not by moving the cart 5mm away from the headshell and introducing a series of wobbly connections with undefined compliance that remove the geometric precision of your cart setup.
I look forward to Arthur showing a clear set of measurements to show reduction in distortion using this device. Rather than just a waffle bollocks whitepaper.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 7:24:15 GMT
I agree with Angus, entirely. If you want to damp detrimental vibrations, assuming they actually exist, the place to do it is at the armtube bearing or 'in the headshell. Not by moving the cart 5mm away from the headshell and introducing a series of wobbly connections with undefined compliance that remove the geometric precision of your cart setup. I look forward to Arthur showing a clear set of measurements to show reduction in distortion using this device. Rather than just a waffle bollocks whitepaper. There are a lot of assumptions in that post. |
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Post by misterc on Sept 23, 2020 7:33:29 GMT
If you wish I have a adjust plus pro and a2d you can borrow which is capable of measuring vibrational adpects in a tone arm transmission lines
If you are feeling strong I can find my HP dynamic signal analyser which can identify frequencies from 120uHz but its a big boat anchor as we say and takes up a lot of bench space!
A few people who I would trust their engineering judgement in this area have designed solutions based around head shell and arm bearing vibration control and these are measurable even PM has measured these vibrational patterns and intensity and published before and after figures
I do find anyone that "transports" a handbag dog in a child's posh push chair at prestigious audio shows if not quite all there in my book
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 7:38:52 GMT
If you wish I have a adjust plus pro and a2d you can borrow which is capable of measuring vibrational adpects in a tone arm transmission lines If you are feeling strong I can find my HP dynamic signal analyser which can identify frequencies from 120uHz but its a big boat anchor as we say and takes up a lot of bench space! A few people who I would trust their engineering judgement in this area have designed solutions based around head shell and arm bearing vibration control and these are measurable even PM has measured these vibrational patterns and intensity and published before and after figures I do find anyone that "transports" a handbag dog in a child's posh push chair at prestigious audio shows if not quite all there in my book If the offer is for me to borrow the equipment, I will politely decline as the distance is prohibitive. I am still up for trying a Houdini to if I perceive a noti eable improvement, as for £300, to justify it's price, it has to be good. If not I would be better putting that mo ey towards a better cartridge. |
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Post by misterc on Sept 23, 2020 7:47:33 GMT
Hello Cageyh
It was a general offer if someone wished to put the device to the test in a real world environment
White papers are one thing real world practice is another ymmv
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 7:55:08 GMT
Understood.
I don't listen to music with measurement equipment though. I use my ears.
I am interested from an engineering point of view on how and why this works, but most the most important thing in this debate about Houdini from a personal perspective is my enjoyment from listening to music.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 23, 2020 7:58:27 GMT
So, Angus has sent me an email, which i am pleased about:
The fundamental issue for a vinyl replay system is control of unwanted vibration, which can propagate through the system.
There are two philosphies to deal with this - create a very rigid system and by use of appropriate materials and construction methods manage the vibration transmission, or create a system with vibration 'breaks' at every joint or point of contact around the loop from disc to platter to bearing to plinth to tonearm to cartridge to stylus
Either approach is valid but the resultant sound characteristics need to be understood. The rigid system will generate resolution, detail, ambient cues coupled with strong transient reproduction - bass slam, powerful reproduction when that is how the instrument was played. The 'soft' system will perhaps convey delicacy and air better to the ears of some listeners.
The disadvantage of the soft system is that it tends not to be stable in the face of environmental changes, leading to measures such as regularly checking the tightness of the nut on the bottom of the Rega tonearm, or the condition of the grommets for the SME arm base. It is also much harder to predict the likely interaction of changing parts of the system, hence the perennial hunt for 'synergy'.
As you know Oliver I have heard a 'soft' system with more than £45,000 worth of equipment and it was one of the most disappointing sounds I have ever heard. Resolution was limited and the sound had negligible impact or presence.
My comment to you about the Houdini is in the context of knowing that your system is based on the rigid principle, and the golden rule is - pick one or other approach but never mix them unless you want the worst of both worlds.
So - narrow-minded? No, but very, very clear-minded.
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Post by misterc on Sept 23, 2020 8:06:07 GMT
Cageyh
As do I, measurements can assist greatly when designing or improving a product, however the auditory canal has the finial say *judging and adjusting audio equipment with hearing that is impaired is not recommended* For example I have been commissioned to design a audio product for a gent who has very specific sonic requirements. After several visits it became clear his hunt for ultimate detail was driven by a hearing range capped at 9.8Khz so a new strategy was required.
Well this is one of those cases where vibration control has a direct effect on the sound without question so measurements in this particular area will reveal a significant correlation between sonic differences I firmly believe.
Any Townshend Rock users here? If you have a non leaking head silicone bath then take out the silicone fluid, does it sound the same afterwards?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 8:11:04 GMT
So the designer of one of the most rigid tone arms currently available, has designed the Houdini, and people are already double guessing what it will do, as they don't yet have experience of it, based on exlerience of other products/systems.
I have a "rigid" system and if the Houdini makes my system sound worse, it will go back for a refund. I still want bass slam, and the finer details. Time will tell...
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Post by misterc on Sept 23, 2020 8:14:43 GMT
Easy chaps, its just vinyl remember you are dragging a rock around a piece of plastic for auditory pleasure, pretty sure our frequent visitors from Alpha Centuri find it quite amusing  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 8:20:45 GMT
I am not getting worked up about this subject. I am just surprised it is being dismissed by some without being trialled.
I am interested in what it could do for me to improve my enjoyment of music. That is all.
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 23, 2020 8:29:22 GMT
I think its important to remember that no one is judging the Houdini prior to giving it a listen.
What has been said here is based on the understanding of how existing systems already work, and having experience of listening to both types of systems, Angus has shared his experiences on the differences between the two approaches, in terms of presentation. There is no comment in that statement about the Houdini's predicted performance or what Angus expects you to gain or lose by using it.
However, if you anyone wants to talk to a guy who knows what the f#ck he is on about, i suggest Angus should be very high on the list of candidates. For Tonearms, Turntables and cartridges, he is an encyclopedeia of knowledge and his expertise is unquestionable. Thats not my opinion either....It's a Fact.
Also, just keen to point out that there was no assumption by me, or anyone else as to what effect the Houdini will have in anyones system.
It's unchartered territory for most of us and i for one am very keen to see what members of this forum think of it. Iapplaud you for having a gamble, and if you gain something from it, it's got to be worth the money!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 8:36:00 GMT
For a bit of balance, I have made AK aware of this thread. He tells me he is very busy at the moment. I am not sure if he will make an appearance thougj.
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 23, 2020 8:38:47 GMT
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 23, 2020 8:51:39 GMT
cagey, why do you 'think' hes designed one of the worlds most rigid tonearms?
What proof is there? Has he published arm tube resonance analysis, showing a higher resonant frequency than any other?
Has he laid out calculations of the stiffness based on the construction?
No, but he has claimed to push a carbon spar up an thin wall tube and then shunt it into a rega bearing housing while adding 5 joins between arm bearing and cart..
Not exactly a recipe for stiffness.
Would you like to bet some money on it being less stiff than the original rega arm with cartridge bolts set at same torque when side loading the cartridge body?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 9:13:24 GMT
"introducing a series of wobbly connections" and "with undefined compliance". Obviously you know how it is made? It is also 6mm, not 5mm but I will.overlook that. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 9:25:11 GMT
cagey, why do you 'think' hes designed one of the worlds most rigid tonearms? What proof is there? Has he published arm tube resonance analysis, showing a higher resonant frequency than any other? Has he laid out calculations of the stiffness based on the construction? No, but he has claimed to push a carbon spar up an thin wall tube and then shunt it into a rega bearing housing while adding 5 joins between arm bearing and cart.. Not exactly a recipe for stiffness. Would you like to bet some money on it being less stiff than the original rega arm with cartridge bolts set at same torque when side loading the cartridge body? Again, you are assuming that they are all rega based. 5 joints? My FX1200 has no additional joints compared to an SL1200 arm. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 23, 2020 9:31:14 GMT
For a bit of balance, I have made AK aware of this thread. He tells me he is very busy at the moment. I am not sure if he will make an appearance thougj. He is very welcome to. And yes, balance is always good. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 9:36:44 GMT
What proof is there? Has he published arm tube resonance analysis ⁸ He has posted several resonance curves in his F•X white paper. It is also a known fact that a round tube is not the stiffest structure, as per basic engineering principles. |
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 23, 2020 13:07:12 GMT
I'm referring to tip to butt stiffness, from cart to arm mount. Does he claim the technics mod is stiffer than the fxr, not just the tube, the whole thing?
Undefined compliance, it contains a viscoelastic element, does it not, their compliance is defined by load, ie tracking weight, cart weight and effective arm mass. As that's different for every arm and cart, yeh, id call that undefined.
5mm, 6mm, it could be 4mm, it doesnt really change anything other than affecting how it works with unipivots.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 15:22:13 GMT
Tip to butt stiffness with the same number of joints, but a stiffer arm tube should be better? I say that as I have never measured it. I don’t feel the need.
It sounds far better than a standard arm, and for me that is all that counts and I get to keep the convenience of VTA on the fly.
As for side loading surely there is very little during vinyl replay, otherwise we would be snapping cantilevers on a regular basis.
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 23, 2020 17:40:59 GMT
Impressive as one stiff bit might be, id warrant that the tip to butt is more important than a snapshot of one part. I love Arthurs willingness to experiment, dont get wrong I just like a good hard critique of stuff for entertainments sake.
I figure him as the UKs Bill Firebraugh, a lateral thinker and tinkered.
I think ynwoans was due to land today, not sure if its going on his Javelin, carbon fibre diy deck or his pt1 with hrs100.
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Post by karma67 on Sept 23, 2020 17:48:52 GMT
i believe its the pt1 with hrs100
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 17:48:59 GMT
Obviously adding one stiff bit is not going to improve the entire tonearm.
AK certainly thinks outside the box, and that is what intrigues me about Houdini.
The marketing of the device has not been the strong point though.
The only one thing I am not keen on is critiquing something before I have my hands on it, or get to hear it, unless it is pig ugly, then all bets are off.
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 23, 2020 19:33:09 GMT
Oh come on, its ugly. ;-)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2020 22:34:59 GMT
Not as ugly as the isolator.
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