Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 10, 2020 13:54:27 GMT
That’s ok Oli.. My day off is on Thursday. Perfection Itll be with you Thursday |
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Post by iceman16 on Aug 13, 2020 16:24:16 GMT
It arrived!!  The psu and phono stage will be on “social distancing” forever I think. They do look really nice together on same shelf but sonically it’s a no no. I need to separate Batman from Robin lol |
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Post by firebottle on Aug 13, 2020 16:30:59 GMT
Looks class on the rack. Initial listening impressions?
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Post by iceman16 on Aug 13, 2020 16:48:17 GMT
Looks class on the rack. Initial listening impressions? Hi Alan, Too early really but so far so good. Im still testing both tubes (Tungsol vs 6N2P-EV). I think I prefer the Tungsol for overall clarity, detail and transparency. It sound more vibrant. The 6N2P is smoother with more body and “meat on the bones”. I also prefer it’s midrange and vocal presentation than the Tungsol. Spun Cat Stevens “Where do the children play” each plucking of guitar is spot on with superb clarity from rise to decay. Will be back for more later.  |
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Post by electronumpty on Aug 13, 2020 17:12:53 GMT
Looks great , really fits in with the rest of your kit.
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Post by iceman16 on Aug 13, 2020 17:18:55 GMT
Looks great , really fits in with the rest of your kit. Thank you Sir. |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 13, 2020 17:44:01 GMT
It arrived!! The psu and phono stage will be on “social distancing” forever I think. They do look really nice together on same shelf but sonically it’s a no no. I need to separate Batman from Robin lolLooks perfect in that setup! I couldn't pick which Valve to send so I went with the safe option and sent both lol. Looking forward to what you think of it when it's bedded in. Remember....that's a brand new Phonostage and it's going to need some hours for everything to relax and open up. |
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Post by iceman16 on Aug 13, 2020 17:58:21 GMT
Oli, here’s another pic. The psu is about 1metre away from the phono stage which makes great improvement sonically.  |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 13, 2020 18:47:22 GMT
Oli, here’s another pic. The psu is about 1metre away from the phono stage which makes great improvement sonically. That's exactly what I leave 1.5m of cable in the Umbilical! The transformer is the best one you can get for the job, but it's never a free lunch with these things. It needs to be kept well away from the Phonostage. It's looking good though, and you've managed to not hide it away, so well done. |
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bigbird
Regular
The Racing Snake
Posts: 200
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Post by bigbird on Aug 13, 2020 19:40:32 GMT
Looks really nice in black . And it’s in good company with the rest of that gear.
I’d maybe consider dropping the Psu down one more shelf as I found getting it well away from the TT and cart made a difference too.
Give it a good couple of weeks of playing a few hours every night before making any critical opinions. It really does open up a lot over that period. And it likes being turned on 30-60mins before a good session to warm up to its best. I just left mine on none stop from the moment I got home to just before bed to speed up the process and get some hours up it’s arse.
It really is a fab bit of kit though and a real bargain in the cost-performance ratio.
I just wish we could get that performance without the PSU issues. I think we would have a serious , world class , commercially viable piece of equipment on our hands . It already is but the two box thing may be an issue for some .
Enjoy it. We all do
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Post by iceman16 on Aug 13, 2020 19:58:36 GMT
Looks really nice in black . And it’s in good company with the rest of that gear. I’d maybe consider dropping the Psu down one more shelf as I found getting it well away from the TT and cart made a difference too. Give it a good couple of weeks of playing a few hours every night before making any critical opinions. It really does open up a lot over that period. And it likes being turned on 30-60mins before a good session to warm up to its best. I just left mine on none stop from the moment I got home to just before bed to speed up the process and get some hours up it’s arse. It really is a fab bit of kit though and a real bargain in the cost-performance ratio. I just wish we could get that performance without the PSU issues. I think we would have a serious , world class , commercially viable piece of equipment on our hands . It already is but the two box thing may be an issue for some . Enjoy it. We all do Thank you Sir.. I’ll try that psu placement. |
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bigbird
Regular
The Racing Snake
Posts: 200
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Post by bigbird on Aug 13, 2020 20:13:20 GMT
Looks really nice in black . And it’s in good company with the rest of that gear. I’d maybe consider dropping the Psu down one more shelf as I found getting it well away from the TT and cart made a difference too. Give it a good couple of weeks of playing a few hours every night before making any critical opinions. It really does open up a lot over that period. And it likes being turned on 30-60mins before a good session to warm up to its best. I just left mine on none stop from the moment I got home to just before bed to speed up the process and get some hours up it’s arse. It really is a fab bit of kit though and a real bargain in the cost-performance ratio. I just wish we could get that performance without the PSU issues. I think we would have a serious , world class , commercially viable piece of equipment on our hands . It already is but the two box thing may be an issue for some . Enjoy it. We all do Thank you Sir.. I’ll try that psu placement. No problem. Let us know how you are getting on after a couple of weeks. It beat my Whest 2.2 quite comfortably straight out of the box but after a week or two the difference really wasn’t subtle. It was on another level all together |
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 13, 2020 20:59:09 GMT
Looks really nice in black . And it’s in good company with the rest of that gear. I’d maybe consider dropping the Psu down one more shelf as I found getting it well away from the TT and cart made a difference too. Give it a good couple of weeks of playing a few hours every night before making any critical opinions. It really does open up a lot over that period. And it likes being turned on 30-60mins before a good session to warm up to its best. I just left mine on none stop from the moment I got home to just before bed to speed up the process and get some hours up it’s arse. It really is a fab bit of kit though and a real bargain in the cost-performance ratio. I just wish we could get that performance without the PSU issues. I think we would have a serious , world class , commercially viable piece of equipment on our hands . It already is but the two box thing may be an issue for some . Enjoy it. We all do Hmm, Thats a good point well made, Karl. On the Traffo box/PSU supply "issue": The phonostage is built without compromise. Every component is hand picked, measured and only used if it meets the highest of standards. That also goes for what components are used etc, so everything in that phonostage is there on purpose, not for its price. a couple of the issues with this approach is A) a lot of waste resistors/Capcitors and JFets, as the sifting process eliminated a lot of them from ever being able to be used. B) The time it takes to actually build one. That brings me to the Transformer. The absolute best type to use in this application, is an O-Core transformer, as it has all the benefits of a Torroid (small radiated Magnetic field) and an E&I (doesnt couple parasitics to the supply), but none of the negatives of either. However, trying to find an O-Core transformer that wouldn't cost well in excess of £100 to get here per transformer, is impossible, I have looked. They will only make a minimum of 20 units and its well over £2k to get them. It's just not viable. A CLOSE Second best, is an E&I transformer. They do not couple parasitic noise to the supply, whereas torroids do. The only downside is that they have a huge magnetic field, which induces hum into the phonostage or a cartridge, if placed too near. So, Why bother spending all those hours sifting components, measuring them, pairing them up per channel and measuring and matching Jfets, buying expensive valves, coupling caps etc, to stick a Torroid up it and send all that hash through the power supply? All it will do is hinder the phonostage's performance, all because the E&I transformer box needs a bit of care when locating it in the system? No, it not a compromise i am willing to make. The lift in SQ when using an E&I transformer is epic Vs a Torroid and as i said, this is a no compromise phonostage. It's like deliberately putting unleaded in your diesel because its 10p a litre cheaper! Yeah, it'll run for a while, but it'll run like Sh#t! A one box phonostage *may* be more customer friendly. It *may* be more commercially viable. It *may* even be a dealbreaker for those who don't want two boxes. However, it's not what this phonostage is about. It's built by an enthusiast, to be as good as it possibly can be. Sure, i could build them for commercial gain but this phonostage is for people like me, who want high SQ, but may not be able to spend £3k on a phonostage. It's still available for DIYers! If i was in it for the money, this would have to stop! It was suggested to me that i should raise the price and get them assembled in China to make some real profit. However, i have no interest in this at all. It's totally against everything i want this phonostage to be. |
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bigbird
Regular
The Racing Snake
Posts: 200
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Post by bigbird on Aug 13, 2020 21:36:24 GMT
Looks really nice in black . And it’s in good company with the rest of that gear. I’d maybe consider dropping the Psu down one more shelf as I found getting it well away from the TT and cart made a difference too. Give it a good couple of weeks of playing a few hours every night before making any critical opinions. It really does open up a lot over that period. And it likes being turned on 30-60mins before a good session to warm up to its best. I just left mine on none stop from the moment I got home to just before bed to speed up the process and get some hours up it’s arse. It really is a fab bit of kit though and a real bargain in the cost-performance ratio. I just wish we could get that performance without the PSU issues. I think we would have a serious , world class , commercially viable piece of equipment on our hands . It already is but the two box thing may be an issue for some . Enjoy it. We all do Hmm, Thats a good point well made, Karl. On the Traffo box/PSU supply "issue": The phonostage is built without compromise. Every component is hand picked, measured and only used if it meets the highest of standards. That also goes for what components are used etc, so everything in that phonostage is there on purpose, not for its price. a couple of the issues with this approach is A) a lot of waste resistors/Capcitors and JFets, as the sifting process eliminated a lot of them from ever being able to be used. B) The time it takes to actually build one. That brings me to the Transformer. The absolute best type to use in this application, is an O-Core transformer, as it has all the benefits of a Torroid (small radiated Magnetic field) and an E&I (doesnt couple parasitics to the supply), but none of the negatives of either. However, trying to find an O-Core transformer that wouldn't cost well in excess of £100 to get here per transformer, is impossible, I have looked. They will only make a minimum of 20 units and its well over £2k to get them. It's just not viable. A CLOSE Second best, is an E&I transformer. They do not couple parasitic noise to the supply, whereas torroids do. The only downside is that they have a huge magnetic field, which induces hum into the phonostage or a cartridge, if placed too near. So, Why bother spending all those hours sifting components, measuring them, pairing them up per channel and measuring and matching Jfets, buying expensive valves, coupling caps etc, to stick a Torroid up it and send all that hash through the power supply? All it will do is hinder the phonostage's performance, all because the E&I transformer box needs a bit of care when locating it in the system? No, it not a compromise i am willing to make. The lift in SQ when using an E&I transformer is epic Vs a Torroid and as i said, this is a no compromise phonostage. It's like deliberately putting unleaded in your diesel because its 10p a litre cheaper! Yeah, it'll run for a while, but it'll run like Sh#t! A one box phonostage *may* be more customer friendly. It *may* be more commercially viable. It *may* even be a dealbreaker for those who don't want two boxes. However, it's not what this phonostage is about. It's built by an enthusiast, to be as good as it possibly can be. Sure, i could build them for commercial gain but this phonostage is for people like me, who want high SQ, but may not be able to spend £3k on a phonostage. It's still available for DIYers! If i was in it for the money, this would have to stop! It was suggested to me that i should raise the price and get them assembled in China to make some real profit. However, i have no interest in this at all. It's totally against everything i want this phonostage to be. Absolutely mate and I understand all of that . ‘Issue’was probably the wrong word to use 😂 I wasn’t putting it down in any way . You know my thoughts on it . Couldn’t be happier A bit of careful placement for the performance on offer isnt and wasn’t a dealbreaker for myself and well with the effort . It may be for someone who doesn’t have the space |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 13, 2020 21:48:54 GMT
Hmm, Thats a good point well made, Karl. On the Traffo box/PSU supply "issue": The phonostage is built without compromise. Every component is hand picked, measured and only used if it meets the highest of standards. That also goes for what components are used etc, so everything in that phonostage is there on purpose, not for its price. a couple of the issues with this approach is A) a lot of waste resistors/Capcitors and JFets, as the sifting process eliminated a lot of them from ever being able to be used. B) The time it takes to actually build one. That brings me to the Transformer. The absolute best type to use in this application, is an O-Core transformer, as it has all the benefits of a Torroid (small radiated Magnetic field) and an E&I (doesnt couple parasitics to the supply), but none of the negatives of either. However, trying to find an O-Core transformer that wouldn't cost well in excess of £100 to get here per transformer, is impossible, I have looked. They will only make a minimum of 20 units and its well over £2k to get them. It's just not viable. A CLOSE Second best, is an E&I transformer. They do not couple parasitic noise to the supply, whereas torroids do. The only downside is that they have a huge magnetic field, which induces hum into the phonostage or a cartridge, if placed too near. So, Why bother spending all those hours sifting components, measuring them, pairing them up per channel and measuring and matching Jfets, buying expensive valves, coupling caps etc, to stick a Torroid up it and send all that hash through the power supply? All it will do is hinder the phonostage's performance, all because the E&I transformer box needs a bit of care when locating it in the system? No, it not a compromise i am willing to make. The lift in SQ when using an E&I transformer is epic Vs a Torroid and as i said, this is a no compromise phonostage. It's like deliberately putting unleaded in your diesel because its 10p a litre cheaper! Yeah, it'll run for a while, but it'll run like Sh#t! A one box phonostage *may* be more customer friendly. It *may* be more commercially viable. It *may* even be a dealbreaker for those who don't want two boxes. However, it's not what this phonostage is about. It's built by an enthusiast, to be as good as it possibly can be. Sure, i could build them for commercial gain but this phonostage is for people like me, who want high SQ, but may not be able to spend £3k on a phonostage. It's still available for DIYers! If i was in it for the money, this would have to stop! It was suggested to me that i should raise the price and get them assembled in China to make some real profit. However, i have no interest in this at all. It's totally against everything i want this phonostage to be. Absolutely mate and I understand all of that . ‘Issue’was probably the wrong word to use 😂 I wasn’t putting it down in any way . You know my thoughts on it . Couldn’t be happier A bit of careful placement for the performance on offer isnt and wasn’t a dealbreaker for myself and well with the effort . It may be for someone who doesn’t have the space No, i know Karl...just adding a little bit of my personal perspective as to the why it's been done like that. I know we've discussed the phono at length, butbi don't think that has been raised online yet, so thought it needed a bit of explaining Just in case anyone thought it was an oversight or something that should have been "fixed" |
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Post by iceman16 on Aug 13, 2020 22:08:04 GMT
Oli Sir.. please don’t forget to send me a 50 ohm plugs to try whenever you’re ready. Thanks I copied this from Analogue Planet. “Output voltage is a modest .3mV while internal impedance is 5 ohms. Ortofon recommends loading >20 ohms (a good rule of thumb is 10x internal impedance or in this case around 50 ohms)” |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 13, 2020 22:23:36 GMT
Oli Sir.. please don’t forget to send me a 50 ohm plugs to try whenever you’re ready. Thanks I copied this from Analogue Planet. “Output voltage is a modest .3mV while internal impedance is 5 ohms. Ortofon recommends loading >20 ohms (a good rule of thumb is 10x internal impedance or in this case around 50 ohms)” Yes, no worries. I'll send a set down. |
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Post by electronumpty on Aug 13, 2020 22:59:19 GMT
Nice round up of the benefits of the different transformers there Oliver , I hadn't appreciated that before. It's got me looking at Os , lol
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bigbird
Regular
The Racing Snake
Posts: 200
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Post by bigbird on Aug 13, 2020 23:07:44 GMT
I’d happily pay 100 quid to try an O
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Post by stevew on Aug 14, 2020 6:17:10 GMT
Looks really nice in black . And it’s in good company with the rest of that gear. I’d maybe consider dropping the Psu down one more shelf as I found getting it well away from the TT and cart made a difference too. Give it a good couple of weeks of playing a few hours every night before making any critical opinions. It really does open up a lot over that period. And it likes being turned on 30-60mins before a good session to warm up to its best. I just left mine on none stop from the moment I got home to just before bed to speed up the process and get some hours up it’s arse. It really is a fab bit of kit though and a real bargain in the cost-performance ratio. I just wish we could get that performance without the PSU issues. I think we would have a serious , world class , commercially viable piece of equipment on our hands . It already is but the two box thing may be an issue for some . Enjoy it. We all do Hmm, Thats a good point well made, Karl. On the Traffo box/PSU supply "issue": The phonostage is built without compromise. Every component is hand picked, measured and only used if it meets the highest of standards. That also goes for what components are used etc, so everything in that phonostage is there on purpose, not for its price. a couple of the issues with this approach is A) a lot of waste resistors/Capcitors and JFets, as the sifting process eliminated a lot of them from ever being able to be used. B) The time it takes to actually build one. That brings me to the Transformer. The absolute best type to use in this application, is an O-Core transformer, as it has all the benefits of a Torroid (small radiated Magnetic field) and an E&I (doesnt couple parasitics to the supply), but none of the negatives of either. However, trying to find an O-Core transformer that wouldn't cost well in excess of £100 to get here per transformer, is impossible, I have looked. They will only make a minimum of 20 units and its well over £2k to get them. It's just not viable. A CLOSE Second best, is an E&I transformer. They do not couple parasitic noise to the supply, whereas torroids do. The only downside is that they have a huge magnetic field, which induces hum into the phonostage or a cartridge, if placed too near. So, Why bother spending all those hours sifting components, measuring them, pairing them up per channel and measuring and matching Jfets, buying expensive valves, coupling caps etc, to stick a Torroid up it and send all that hash through the power supply? All it will do is hinder the phonostage's performance, all because the E&I transformer box needs a bit of care when locating it in the system? No, it not a compromise i am willing to make. The lift in SQ when using an E&I transformer is epic Vs a Torroid and as i said, this is a no compromise phonostage. It's like deliberately putting unleaded in your diesel because its 10p a litre cheaper! Yeah, it'll run for a while, but it'll run like Sh#t! A one box phonostage *may* be more customer friendly. It *may* be more commercially viable. It *may* even be a dealbreaker for those who don't want two boxes. However, it's not what this phonostage is about. It's built by an enthusiast, to be as good as it possibly can be. Sure, i could build them for commercial gain but this phonostage is for people like me, who want high SQ, but may not be able to spend £3k on a phonostage. It's still available for DIYers! If i was in it for the money, this would have to stop! It was suggested to me that i should raise the price and get them assembled in China to make some real profit. However, i have no interest in this at all. It's totally against everything i want this phonostage to be. Said with passion,drive and very well written. Really useful to get an understanding and insight into the realities of developing the BB3. I guess for an O core to be an option you would need to have guaranteed to have sold 20 phonostage’s. As you say, hardly viable. In reality is the 2 box solution really an issue? Nah.. |
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Post by electronumpty on Aug 14, 2020 6:26:28 GMT
I’d happily pay 100 quid to try an O Yep me to. |
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bigbird
Regular
The Racing Snake
Posts: 200
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Post by bigbird on Aug 14, 2020 7:23:12 GMT
Group buy on some O cores anyone ? 🤣
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 14, 2020 7:29:07 GMT
Nice round up of the benefits of the different transformers there Oliver , I hadn't appreciated that before. It's got me looking at Os , lol Thanks Andy. |
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Post by firebottle on Aug 14, 2020 7:33:06 GMT
You can build a single box MC phono stage, as I have in the past, but in my experience you cannot get the ultimate performance level that the BB3 achieves without at least going to a 'box within a box'. Even then you can have problems with eddy currents that interfere with the low MC input signal, particularly if you are after a compact build.
It's easier really to build in a two box solution and a lot of top flight phonostages are built this way (4 box Paradise anyone?).
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 14, 2020 7:33:54 GMT
Hmm, Thats a good point well made, Karl. On the Traffo box/PSU supply "issue": The phonostage is built without compromise. Every component is hand picked, measured and only used if it meets the highest of standards. That also goes for what components are used etc, so everything in that phonostage is there on purpose, not for its price. a couple of the issues with this approach is A) a lot of waste resistors/Capcitors and JFets, as the sifting process eliminated a lot of them from ever being able to be used. B) The time it takes to actually build one. That brings me to the Transformer. The absolute best type to use in this application, is an O-Core transformer, as it has all the benefits of a Torroid (small radiated Magnetic field) and an E&I (doesnt couple parasitics to the supply), but none of the negatives of either. However, trying to find an O-Core transformer that wouldn't cost well in excess of £100 to get here per transformer, is impossible, I have looked. They will only make a minimum of 20 units and its well over £2k to get them. It's just not viable. A CLOSE Second best, is an E&I transformer. They do not couple parasitic noise to the supply, whereas torroids do. The only downside is that they have a huge magnetic field, which induces hum into the phonostage or a cartridge, if placed too near. So, Why bother spending all those hours sifting components, measuring them, pairing them up per channel and measuring and matching Jfets, buying expensive valves, coupling caps etc, to stick a Torroid up it and send all that hash through the power supply? All it will do is hinder the phonostage's performance, all because the E&I transformer box needs a bit of care when locating it in the system? No, it not a compromise i am willing to make. The lift in SQ when using an E&I transformer is epic Vs a Torroid and as i said, this is a no compromise phonostage. It's like deliberately putting unleaded in your diesel because its 10p a litre cheaper! Yeah, it'll run for a while, but it'll run like Sh#t! A one box phonostage *may* be more customer friendly. It *may* be more commercially viable. It *may* even be a dealbreaker for those who don't want two boxes. However, it's not what this phonostage is about. It's built by an enthusiast, to be as good as it possibly can be. Sure, i could build them for commercial gain but this phonostage is for people like me, who want high SQ, but may not be able to spend £3k on a phonostage. It's still available for DIYers! If i was in it for the money, this would have to stop! It was suggested to me that i should raise the price and get them assembled in China to make some real profit. However, i have no interest in this at all. It's totally against everything i want this phonostage to be. Said with passion,drive and very well written. Really useful to get an understanding and insight into the realities of developing the BB3. I guess for an O core to be an option you would need to have guaranteed to have sold 20 phonostage’s. As you say, hardly viable. In reality is the 2 box solution really an issue? Nah.. Thanks Steve. Yes, I am very passionate about the Phonostage, so I'm pleased that came through. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 14, 2020 7:45:39 GMT
You can build a single box MC phono stage, as I have in the past, but in my experience you cannot get the ultimate performance level that the BB3 achieves without at least going to a 'box within a box'. Even then you can have problems with eddy currents that interfere with the low MC input signal, particularly if you are after a compact build. It's easier really to build in a two box solution and a lot of top flight phonostages are built this way (4 box Paradise anyone?). Yes, spot on Al There are other factors to consider too, as we have found out on previous occasions. For one, a lot of transformers vibrate. Even if it's only slightly, do we want that vibration (effectively becomes resonance) inside a case with the Phonostage PCB? Also considering the fact that as transformers age, the laminates loosen and the vibration usually gets worse, becoming a mechanicaly buzzing mess. Valves in general are particularly susceptible to microphonics, so that vibration can become an issue very easily. I certainly don't want that in my Phonostage. Every little thing that can effect performance, will affect it...if you let it. |
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Post by electronumpty on Aug 14, 2020 8:33:10 GMT
Well I wasn't considering a seperate power supply box for mine up until now. However having heard in detail about the difference it can make I am seriously reconsidering.
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bigbird
Regular
The Racing Snake
Posts: 200
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Post by bigbird on Aug 14, 2020 8:39:45 GMT
Well I wasn't considering a seperate power supply box for mine up until now. However having heard in detail about the difference it can make I am seriously reconsidering. Definitely reconsider mate 😁 |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,399
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 14, 2020 8:40:44 GMT
Well I wasn't considering a seperate power supply box for mine up until now. However having heard in detail about the difference it can make I am seriously reconsidering. Well if you do decide to give it a go, you can mimic the kind of result you could get, by dragging your Torroid out of the box. . Carefully. |
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Post by electronumpty on Aug 14, 2020 8:55:40 GMT
Well I googled "o" ring and got to oversize rubber seals. Just one more step to cock rings I guess. 😳
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