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Post by jimbo on Apr 1, 2020 8:18:37 GMT
Darko makes some good points about digital audio.
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Post by firebottle on Apr 1, 2020 10:01:29 GMT
Interesting linked ifi USB article .
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2020 10:09:02 GMT
He's an idiot.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 1, 2020 10:12:50 GMT
Why do you think he is an idiot? |
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2020 10:19:56 GMT
Look at his list of 'experts' he consulted. If he can't distinguish between an expert and a salesman then he's an idiot.
Added to which some of the other bollocks he talks. I suppose he has to be controversial to get hits and make money, that's fair enough. he doesn't need to be an idiot to get hits though.
Personally I have no idea re USB cables, I'm not an expert and have never personally experimented, having never had the need. I know enough to know that anyone who says 'bits are bits' isn't an expert. That's about it.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 1, 2020 10:23:33 GMT
If some of these people he has mentioned are not experts then how on earth do you think they have managed to develop some of the equipment they sell?
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2020 10:46:35 GMT
I think you're overestimating the amount of 'development' required. Of course they'll tell you that there is masses of it, but then a salesman will always paint you a good picture.
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2020 10:54:43 GMT
take the first bloke on his list - degree in electrical engineering in 1994 after that, sales, sales sales. |
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2020 10:55:40 GMT
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2020 10:56:18 GMT
okay so can't post the link to it here but you can see his CV on linkedin.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 1, 2020 11:04:21 GMT
And Rob Watts?
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 1, 2020 15:14:16 GMT
The difference between all the scientific endeavours he mentions is that they were proven through test and trial. The perfection of cd was never more than marketing bluster. The audibility of cables in all instances has similarly never been proven.
Hes a shitehawk.
Rob on zero gain did a test where interconnects were used vs a coat hanger and tin foil to transmit audio that was then digitized using a very decent dac and adc loop.
Could people spot the tin foil and coat hanger, nope, there was pretty much a 4 way split across the 4 sample files.
Thorsten loercsh comment is bullshit too, he's right simple isochronous does not have error correction using crc, but that statement is pure misdirection because we use asynchronous usb via isochronous and packet resend rather than crc is the correction method.
He should have just said, plain old synchronous usb has no error correction.
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Post by firebottle on Apr 1, 2020 15:26:03 GMT
The audibility of cables in all instances has similarly never been proven. But it has been experienced by many. The problem is you need to measure in the same way that the human ear works, phase, frequency and level all at the same time. Crack that and you may get somewhere. |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 1, 2020 15:36:58 GMT
Suggesting your cannot hear the difference between cables is like suggesting you cant hear the difference between one amp or another or one cartridge or another.
Why would folk buy anything if they could not pick a preference which in my opinion should be totally based on listener experience and not on technical measurements.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 1, 2020 16:13:39 GMT
Suggesting your cannot hear the difference between cables is like suggesting you cant hear the difference between one amp or another or one cartridge or another. Why would folk buy anything if they could not pick a preference which in my opinion should be totally based on listener experience and not on technical measurements. I think you have to be careful there. Saying you cant hear a difference between cables, is different to saying that the difference in cables hasnt been scientifically proven as a "measurable difference" There is no doubt that cables sound different in my opinion, and stuff as simple as 4" of speaker jumpers can make a huge difference. Whether anyone chooses to deny that fact based on it not being proven by measurements, is different to those denying a difference because they cant hear one. I know I've explained that twice but I wanted to lol |
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 1, 2020 16:16:14 GMT
I generally dont hear differences between cables. My barrier to entry is pretty high, it has to be a slap in the face difference before I attribute it anything other than the state of my audio memory and the brains ability to shift focus.
As Alan says we pick up on multiple differences aspects of sound simultaneously, though we can only focus on on aspect at a time.
heres how this works in a demo.
Demo guy says listen to the sound of the bass on this next cable I plug in, and you do and it sounds fuller, because thats where you focus was.
Then he says this next cable has the same bass, but it also has something else. Listen. And you do, and the bass is the same (because it is) then he says, now listen to the extra resolution in the treble as well. So you shift your focus there next and lo and behold, that's better.
It's always pre emptive, never via post listen consensus.
Our own bias works the same way when we self stimulate for perceived difference.
Of course gross differences can exist, but rarely do.
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 1, 2020 16:26:20 GMT
I generally dont hear differences between cables. My barrier to entry is pretty high, it has to be a slap in the face difference before I attribute it anything other than the state of my audio memory and the brains ability to shift focus. Yep, a lot of guys think like that. |
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 1, 2020 16:37:29 GMT
And we're right ;-)
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Post by jandl100 on Apr 1, 2020 17:14:49 GMT
Subtle differences are there and are important imo.
It doesn't have to slap me in the face, but subtle differences can make themselves decently obvious over a more extended period ime.
It can make going back to the previous bit of kit very difficult, even though the differences may be subtle.
Subtle is important.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 1, 2020 17:32:03 GMT
Subtle differences are there and are important imo. It doesn't have to slap me in the face, but subtle differences can make themselves decently obvious over a more extended period ime. It can make going back to the previous bit of kit very difficult, even though the differences may be subtle. Subtle is important. I agree with you there, subtle is important because although we say we can hear a night and day difference in equipment, quite often it really is only a subtle one. This of course is all dependent on the sensitivity and hearing ability of the listener. The most important thing is your own evaluation and not biased by others views or opinions.
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2020 19:40:47 GMT
Well there's no question that Rob Watts knows his chops, but he's also a salesman. And he has made controversial claims about his DACS that have no verification. Doesn't do to rock the boat about this sort of thing, sticking to the 'everything makes a difference' line sells a lot more product in general so it doesn't matter what these blokes get asked about, even if they don't make it or sell it. Even if it is outrageous nonsense they'll umm and arrr and not give a straight answer. Have you ever watched any Paul McGowan (PSAudio) videos? He's a master at it. Seems to me that if Darko wants to convince everyone that USB cables (or whatever) make a difference he should organise a blind test and demonstrate it. If he's right then not only does he keep all the 'I want to believe' punters on board but he gets the sceptical punters like me going out and buying the product too. That's a win-win. And he's so sure and the experts are all sure so what's to lose? But of course it will never happen. I wonder why? |
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 1, 2020 20:28:52 GMT
I love a good rhetorical question, dont you?
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Post by jimbo on Apr 1, 2020 20:35:31 GMT
I like hearing people talk bollox about people talking bollox.
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Post by jandl100 on Apr 1, 2020 20:42:51 GMT
Cable Wars!  Oh yes it is. -- Oh no it isn't. He's be hiiiind you! -- takes me back to my days on the Wam forum.  From my occasional visit there, they're still at it.  When I first started streaming via my laptop I knew that USB cables couldn't sound different - "no, they do" said a friend, "try a 'decent' make, you can always sell it on". So I did, and it stayed. End of argument as far as I am concerned. YMMV as they say. |
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 2, 2020 14:06:44 GMT
I'd always spend the money on a better source or dac than throw money at a cable to connect a bad product.
Each to their own though.
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Post by jandl100 on Apr 2, 2020 14:25:03 GMT
Why assume a product is bad because someone wants to use a (presumably) expensive cable with it?
Makes no sense at all to me.
It's about getting the best out of the system as a whole.
But yes, each to their own.
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 2, 2020 17:27:55 GMT
My assumption is that good gear shouldnt need fancy stands, or fancy cables or otherwise holding in kid gloves to make it give its best. My oscilloscope doesnt care what iec lead is used with it, why should my dac?
If a piece of kit only works perfectly with one specific model of cable, and cable isnt specified by the manufacturer then why would I risk buying something that might never give all of its performance?
Of course it's an entirely personal choice and people are free to do what they want, I just dont truck with cables.
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Post by firebottle on Apr 2, 2020 17:42:03 GMT
I think we'd worked that out Simon.
Now serious question - have you tried any PC-OCC based cables anywhere in your system?
Without trawling through your posts I don't know if you have. For the record I have found large uplifts in performance, particularly clarity, in moving to OCC interconnects and speaker cable.
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 2, 2020 20:52:09 GMT
I havent 'tried' any cables in over a decade. They're just not on my radar at all. The only time I'd get a new one would be if I got kit that needed a new plug type that I didnt have.
Trying cables isnt something I'm interested in. I've never heard a cable make a difference that I could genuinely pick out unsigned. I tried loads back in the day, used to think they made a difference, blind tested them and found out that I couldn't pick out even those I thought sounded different when I couldn't see what they were, and stopped caring.
I wouldn't bother trying one even if it was £20k and sent FOC.
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Post by macca on Apr 3, 2020 6:46:35 GMT
But what about the 'experts' Simon, the 'experts'! They've spoken!
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From my occasional visit there, they're still at it. 