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Post by jimbo on Apr 3, 2020 7:03:04 GMT
What about the "Forum Experts They've spoken!
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Post by macca on Apr 3, 2020 7:34:09 GMT
What's a forum expert? ASR discuss the same video here www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-do-you-think-of-this-video.12317/No need to read it all, this blokes post sums up the point I was trying to make far better than I can (like I said previously I have no opinion re these cables, it's the appeal to the 'expert' part I take unbrage with). What Darko of course gets wrong is that merely citing an "expert" isn't a sound argument. A claim is judged on the quality of the evidence, not on who makes the claim! That's why even the most renowned scientists in the world can't get away with just making an empirical claim with "trust me, I'm an expert." No, their claims are put to exactly the same crucible of testing as anyone else, because we know that everyone is prone to bias and mistakes. And, crucially, and what should be most sobering: most hypotheses do not survive this crucible!
If an "expert" turns out to be using a flaw in his method somewhere, his results are no more trustworthy than the non-expert using a flawed method.
So the question is, are the "experts" cited by Darko vetting whatever they claim by rigorous methods used to reduce known bias variables (e.g. sighted bias) - their results repeatable by others using similarly rigorous methods? As far as I'm aware: no. He's citing designers who work for commercial companies or who are also salesmen, who make technical claims but who also default to the flawed subjectivist method of "trying it and if I think I hear a difference, this validates my hypothesis!" Which is precisely the same method used to vet every alternative medicine and pseudo-science.
It doesn't mean that every person he cites ISN'T producing designs with audible consequences, but we need to see the quality of the EVIDENCE they have for whatever claim they are making. Darko doesn't point to any such evidence, but just cites "experts." |
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 3, 2020 7:40:59 GMT
But what about the 'experts' Simon, the 'experts'! They've spoken! I haven't?  |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 3, 2020 7:54:05 GMT
What's a forum expert? ASR discuss the same video here www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-do-you-think-of-this-video.12317/No need to read it all, this blokes post sums up the point I was trying to make far better than I can (like I said previously I have no opinion re these cables, it's the appeal to the 'expert' part I take unbrage with). What Darko of course gets wrong is that merely citing an "expert" isn't a sound argument. A claim is judged on the quality of the evidence, not on who makes the claim! That's why even the most renowned scientists in the world can't get away with just making an empirical claim with "trust me, I'm an expert." No, their claims are put to exactly the same crucible of testing as anyone else, because we know that everyone is prone to bias and mistakes. And, crucially, and what should be most sobering: most hypotheses do not survive this crucible!
If an "expert" turns out to be using a flaw in his method somewhere, his results are no more trustworthy than the non-expert using a flawed method.
So the question is, are the "experts" cited by Darko vetting whatever they claim by rigorous methods used to reduce known bias variables (e.g. sighted bias) - their results repeatable by others using similarly rigorous methods? As far as I'm aware: no. He's citing designers who work for commercial companies or who are also salesmen, who make technical claims but who also default to the flawed subjectivist method of "trying it and if I think I hear a difference, this validates my hypothesis!" Which is precisely the same method used to vet every alternative medicine and pseudo-science.
It doesn't mean that every person he cites ISN'T producing designs with audible consequences, but we need to see the quality of the EVIDENCE they have for whatever claim they are making. Darko doesn't point to any such evidence, but just cites "experts."Ok I understand all your blah blah blah but if I simply told your I heard a difference and it was either better, worse or indifferent then that makes me the expert because I hear it. I dont have to produce a scientific paper full of technical validation to prove what I hear. You may have learnt by now i am sure that sometimes we cannot measure what we hear.
Do you really only buy or listen too a piece of equipment only when you have a full technical paper that has been peer read and scientifically evaluated. Bollox you do. You simply listen to a piece of kit or a cable and your either hear a difference and like it or you dont.
OK some of the technical designers and "salesmen" as you call them may not be able to accurately verify scientifically what their equipment achieves but that does not preclude them as to their ability to make a hypothesis on what is happening even if that is subjective.
All of us whether we are a forum numpty or a forum "expert" or a manufacturer/ designer can all make our own opinions but you have got to be a bit of a sad bastard if you want to see a technical paper proving what your hear is why you hear it before you buy it!
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 3, 2020 8:06:00 GMT
What's a forum expert? ASR discuss the same video here www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/what-do-you-think-of-this-video.12317/No need to read it all, this blokes post sums up the point I was trying to make far better than I can (like I said previously I have no opinion re these cables, it's the appeal to the 'expert' part I take unbrage with). What Darko of course gets wrong is that merely citing an "expert" isn't a sound argument. A claim is judged on the quality of the evidence, not on who makes the claim! That's why even the most renowned scientists in the world can't get away with just making an empirical claim with "trust me, I'm an expert." No, their claims are put to exactly the same crucible of testing as anyone else, because we know that everyone is prone to bias and mistakes. And, crucially, and what should be most sobering: most hypotheses do not survive this crucible!
If an "expert" turns out to be using a flaw in his method somewhere, his results are no more trustworthy than the non-expert using a flawed method.
So the question is, are the "experts" cited by Darko vetting whatever they claim by rigorous methods used to reduce known bias variables (e.g. sighted bias) - their results repeatable by others using similarly rigorous methods? As far as I'm aware: no. He's citing designers who work for commercial companies or who are also salesmen, who make technical claims but who also default to the flawed subjectivist method of "trying it and if I think I hear a difference, this validates my hypothesis!" Which is precisely the same method used to vet every alternative medicine and pseudo-science.
It doesn't mean that every person he cites ISN'T producing designs with audible consequences, but we need to see the quality of the EVIDENCE they have for whatever claim they are making. Darko doesn't point to any such evidence, but just cites "experts."Ok I understand all your blah blah blah but if I simply told your I heard a difference and it was either better, worse or indifferent then that makes me the expert because I hear it. I dont have to produce a scientific paper full of technical validation to prove what I hear. You may have learnt by now i am sure that sometimes we cannot measure what we hear.
Do you really only buy or listen too a piece of equipment only when you have a full technical paper that has been peer read and scientifically evaluated. Bollox you do. You simply listen to a piece of kit or a cable and your either hear a difference and like it or you dont.
OK some of the technical designers and "salesmen" as you call them may not be able to accurately verify scientifically what their equipment achieves but that does not preclude them as to their ability to make a hypothesis on what is happening even if that is subjective.
All of us whether we are a forum numpty or a forum "expert" or a manufacturer/ designer can all make our own opinions but you have got to be a bit of a sad bastard if you want to see a technical paper proving what your hear is why you hear it before you buy it!
Dont forget, just because something measures extremely well, it doesn't mean you are going to like how it sounds. How many pieces of HiFi have you heard, that you didnt like? Personally, I've heard loads. Technically they may have been designed perfectly, but it doesn't make a difference if you dont like it. This hobby is all about opinion, not fact, and when you start telling people their opinion is wrong because a data sheet says it cant be so, I'm afraid you are wrong. Forums are places for people to share their opinion, nothing more. When you start trying to crossover scientific findings Vs listener experiences, you are always going to get this argument. The two cannot mix, much like Big Pharma and Holistic Medicine. The guys on ASR are doing valuable work. Their measurements give an insight into how well something is designed. It gives you a way of checking things are right BEFORE you use your ears to judge it. Audio equipment is not to be judged solely on the measurements. We dont buy it to sit and watch a perfect square wave on an oscilloscope, we buy it to listen to. THAT is how every thing should be judged IMO. Remember the post "all dacs sound the same" They dont. We know they don't, because we've listened to them. We have a preference for either the one we own now, or one we owned and sold. However technically good they are, however well their SINAD performs, it all comes down to the listening. |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 3, 2020 8:16:04 GMT
How many times does all that need repeating?
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 3, 2020 8:28:45 GMT
How many times does all that need repeating? Probably just repost this tomorro, around the same time lol |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 9:49:46 GMT
I used to be a pert.
Now I am not. Does that make me an expert?
The thing is that changing cables between different components can make subtle differences, but to gain real benefit, you would need to modify the components as well.
It takes me back to the Graphene fuse era. How can a 32mm long bit of Graphene make a big difference? I could not try it for myself, as I have no space in my plugs for such a device.
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Post by firebottle on Apr 3, 2020 10:08:38 GMT
I havent 'tried' any cables in over a decade. They're just not on my radar at all. Simon all I can say is you are missing out. |
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Post by macca on Apr 3, 2020 11:13:15 GMT
Ok I understand all your blah blah blah but if I simply told your I heard a difference and it was either better, worse or indifferent then that makes me the expert because I hear it. I dont have to produce a scientific paper full of technical validation to prove what I hear. You may have learnt by now i am sure that sometimes we cannot measure what we hear.
Do you really only buy or listen too a piece of equipment only when you have a full technical paper that has been peer read and scientifically evaluated. Bollox you do. You simply listen to a piece of kit or a cable and your either hear a difference and like it or you dont.
OK some of the technical designers and "salesmen" as you call them may not be able to accurately verify scientifically what their equipment achieves but that does not preclude them as to their ability to make a hypothesis on what is happening even if that is subjective.
All of us whether we are a forum numpty or a forum "expert" or a manufacturer/ designer can all make our own opinions but you have got to be a bit of a sad bastard if you want to see a technical paper proving what your hear is why you hear it before you buy it!
Dont forget, just because something measures extremely well, it doesn't mean you are going to like how it sounds. How many pieces of HiFi have you heard, that you didnt like? Personally, I've heard loads. Technically they may have been designed perfectly, but it doesn't make a difference if you dont like it. This hobby is all about opinion, not fact, and when you start telling people their opinion is wrong because a data sheet says it cant be so, I'm afraid you are wrong. Forums are places for people to share their opinion, nothing more. When you start trying to crossover scientific findings Vs listener experiences, you are always going to get this argument. The two cannot mix, much like Big Pharma and Holistic Medicine. The guys on ASR are doing valuable work. Their measurements give an insight into how well something is designed. It gives you a way of checking things are right BEFORE you use your ears to judge it. Audio equipment is not to be judged solely on the measurements. We dont buy it to sit and watch a perfect square wave on an oscilloscope, we buy it to listen to. THAT is how every thing should be judged IMO. Remember the post "all dacs sound the same" They dont. We know they don't, because we've listened to them. We have a preference for either the one we own now, or one we owned and sold. However technically good they are, however well their SINAD performs, it all comes down to the listening. Can we not stay on topic? No-one is talking about measurements. Darko contends that there can be a difference in the sound between USB cables. To back this up he asks some people, all of whom have a vested financial interest, what they think. This does nothing to prove his contention for reasons explained in the post I quoted from ASR. What he needs to do to prove his claim is arrange a blind test between USB cables to see if people can still hear a difference once unconscious bias is removed. In a blind test nothing is measured. No oscilloscopes are involved. Only listening. If the cables sound different then people will be able to spot the difference and then he has the evidence he seeks in order to convince people that there is a difference. I suspect, I don't know, that the reason he does not do this, and that the manufactures/salesmen of these cables do not do this is because they are concerned that in fact there is no difference and the gravy train will be de-railed. Now if you really do not believe that sighted bias makes a difference to what you hear then I guess you will reject this line of argument. Does anyone here think that? |
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 3, 2020 11:53:58 GMT
Alan, I'm really not missing out at all. Just as your experience with cables leads you to believe you hear a difference, means leads me to believe that I dont. Your truth is different to mine, we experience these things differently.
To get back to usb cables.
I find it impossible to conclude anything about none USB certified cables. There are simply too many variables to consider and I would just avoid them. Thing is, I cant think of a single audiophile USB cable that comes with certified labelling on the packaging or the cable. Does anyone know of one?
All I can conclude is that due to the variability of construction and the quality of the send / receive interfaces that none spec cables could quite literally introduce all sorts of shenanigans into a system.
I firmly believe that a none certified cable can cause changes in sound, be it by jitter, signal reflection due to impedance, cross coupling between wires, pick up of rfi due to shielding or construction choices. Literally anything is possible, and people may or may not like these aberrations.
Likewise the quality of the send/ receive and subsequent internal stages in a dac may do harm to the USB signal.
But what any usb cable cant do is objectively improve the data beyond the perfection of the stored file. We might like the fuckery it adds, but objectively it cant improve upon the perfect stored data.
So with that in mind one can either shoot for the moon with well designed source and dac and use only certified wire, or accept that one doesnt care about objective perfection and just use what makes you happy.
And ultimately that's the stumbling block, the objectivists want that brilliant measured performance and will accept however it sounds as long as it measures right and the other group are happy to take the sound that they finally decide sounds right to them by whatever means.
There's no common ground between these two approaches and neither side will be swayed by the opinion of the other, so its pointless trying.
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 3, 2020 12:02:13 GMT
To get back to Darko he exists to perpetuate his viewpoint through promotion of methodology and products that align with his belief system for his own profit. Amir on ASR exists for exactly the same reason but supports a different methodology. They are flip sides of the same coin.
They are both after your time/money.
Choose your own path.
I'm split between the two, for digital I want the best measured objective performance, from analogue I want a sound that pleases me most, it just happens to rely on well measuring kit to achieve this. But make no doubt it my preference for VTA, loading and RIAA accuracy are about making me happy, nothing else.
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Post by firebottle on Apr 3, 2020 12:24:24 GMT
Alan, I'm really not missing out at all. Just as your experience with cables leads you to believe you hear a difference, means leads me to believe that I dont. Your truth is different to mine, we experience these things differently. Different folks, different strokes, it would be terrible if we were all the same. However I don't just believe I hear a difference, in the 'I've spent money there must be' scenario, I KNOW I hear a difference, no F#ck it let's call it an improvement, and a big one in certain cases. I honestly feel sorry for you in not opening your mind to the possibility. I and many others are experiencing a greater sound clarity with, for example, Oli's Spotfire interconnect cables. |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 3, 2020 12:43:03 GMT
Ultimately it does not really matter what the motives are behind what any one says about anything, in the end it is up to you to decide with your own ears and wallet what to spend your money on.
Every journalist or product reviewer and indeed manufacturer is trying to make some money to live and what is wrong with that, its what folk do. Everyone has a view point however it is skewed to their opinion or money making opportunity but we are all old enough and wise enough to know this.
Can you really trust any manufacturer or reviewer to tell you the whole unbiased truth...I doubt it but this should not be a problem to us as we are the arbiting factor in all this. You can try or buy an item and if it does not do what you want it to do you simply don't buy it or if you have committed cash you sell it on!
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 3, 2020 13:47:27 GMT
Alan, I'm glad that you get greater musical enjoyment from using specific cables. I on the other hand am quite happy homing in on any particular aspect of the sound using just my perception to achieve similar improved 'focus'.
I've just learned to do it without props.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 3, 2020 14:10:47 GMT
Alan, I'm glad that you get greater musical enjoyment from using specific cables. I on the other hand am quite happy homing in on any particular aspect of the sound using just my perception to achieve similar improved 'focus'. I've just learned to do it without props. Oooofff, Right in the guts! Lol Let's not get hung up on cables. They only matter to those of us who care, as already stated. Anyway....Johnny Darko is a twat...discuss lol |
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Post by antonio on Apr 3, 2020 15:33:49 GMT
"I wouldn't bother trying one even if it was £20k and sent FOC." Now are you sure about that Simon.  Just unplugging a couple wires and plugging a couple more in their place, think I would. |
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 3, 2020 15:47:05 GMT
Absolutely sure. Theres just no upside.
Darko, not a twat. A decent bloke by all accounts, but hes just after yer money.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 3, 2020 16:05:23 GMT
Absolutely sure. Theres just no upside. Darko, not a twat. A decent bloke by all accounts, but hes just after yer money. Yes, quite. Just redirecting back to better ground |
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Post by macca on Apr 4, 2020 7:44:05 GMT
To get back to Darko he exists to perpetuate his viewpoint through promotion of methodology and products that align with his belief system for his own profit. Amir on ASR exists for exactly the same reason but supports a different methodology. They are flip sides of the same coin. They are both after your time/money. Can you explain how Amir on ASR is after our money? His site has no sponsership besides voluntary contributions from members and no adverts. And he's spent about $140,0000 on his analyser and the Klippel speaker-measuring system. Okay he gets the voluntary donations but how long before he breaks even from those? He's not a youngster so I suspect never. Is there something I'm missing? |
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Post by macca on Apr 4, 2020 7:49:23 GMT
Ultimately it does not really matter what the motives are behind what any one says about anything, in the end it is up to you to decide with your own ears and wallet what to spend your money on. Every journalist or product reviewer and indeed manufacturer is trying to make some money to live and what is wrong with that, its what folk do. Everyone has a view point however it is skewed to their opinion or money making opportunity but we are all old enough and wise enough to know this. Can you really trust any manufacturer or reviewer to tell you the whole unbiased truth...I doubt it but this should not be a problem to us as we are the arbiting factor in all this. You can try or buy an item and if it does not do what you want it to do you simply don't buy it or if you have committed cash you sell it on! I agree. But the video was posted and comments invited so that's what happened. Maybe some desperately naive non-member who hangs on every word characters like Darko say has had his eyes opened by reading this thread and maybe save himself some time and money that can now be directed towards doing things that will genuinely improve their system. I wish we'd had forums when I was just starting out and knew nothing. |
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Post by antonio on Apr 4, 2020 10:28:48 GMT
Can you explain how Amir on ASR is after our money? His site has no sponsership besides voluntary contributions from members and no adverts. And he's spent about $140,0000 on his analyser and the Klippel speaker-measuring system. Okay he gets the voluntary donations but how long before he breaks even from those? He's not a youngster so I suspect never. Is there something I'm missing? Having only recently found out about this site, I have no real knowledge, but if Amir has spent $140,000 plus of his own money, on testing gear, well done to him. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 11:07:38 GMT
Would like to clarify some costings, a mid point Audio precision APX555 two channel with the required pre requites that you would really need to conduct in-depth audio analysis would be around £45K new (before discounts) US pricing is subject to if you have a affiliation with the manufacturer or distributor. The ASR chap previously used a lesser AP model before obtaining a APX 555, (An AP525 I believe?) Virtually fully loaded used examples of this device are available here in the UK for around £25K, Our firm uses a Rhode & Schwarz UPV (blue tooth and wireless research) with options for digital audio, extra signal generator and extended bandwidth to 400Khz. The UPV also sports many of the Kippel analyser features, but not so in-depth but more than enough to give a good indication of life above 20Hz 
Though for a serious investigation a controlled environment would be preferable. Now what would make me take notice of ASR more seriously would be the inclusion of an ultra low noise phase measurement device and genuine RTA spectral analysis above 120Khz just see how far the harmonics stretch out from these so called Fs clocks which really spue out noise way beyond 2Ghz.
Though I will state again many very well measuring pieces of audio equipment may produce a sound that does not identify with the listener.
Kudos for putting together a technical forum that is devoid of adverting for any products.
So the question is can USB cables make any difference at all then?
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Post by macca on Apr 4, 2020 11:18:24 GMT
Though I will state again many very well measuring pieces of audio equipment may produce a sound that does not identify with the listener.
That's the fly in the ointment with the objectivist approach. There's no accounting for personal taste. The smarter/more experienced ones do take that on board though. |
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Post by sq225917 on Apr 4, 2020 15:40:06 GMT
ASR is soft core, pop over to Hydrogenaudio for the ultimate objectivity experience.
You not even allowed to talk about something sounds unless you blind abx it first.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2020 14:22:40 GMT
For many years was a cable sceptic. Having trained and lectured for many years, in Electrical and Electronic Engineering. How could they make a difference? Came back from working overseas for more than twenty years. Having sold my system over there before I left, time to replace it ASAP. One word on a wonderful Amp I left behind, a Sony V-FET integrated Amp. Went to a dealer and bought the setup, thought while I'm here why not buy some cable. Paid £4.50 per metre for Cable Talk 3.1 bi-wire speaker cable. Went home to set it up, flat and lifeless. Persevered for a couple of weeks and came to the conclusion, the tweeters were'nt operating. Sent them back to the makers and they came back with the frequency response graphs. Put them back on, still the same, so went out and bought some lighting flex. Bingo the system came to life. Since then have experimented with different cables and in my opinion they don't sound the same. Make my own power cables, using screened cables and find it works. With regards to supervised tests. Years ago a reviewer in HiFi Answers conducted a group listening test on amplifiers. He put a Technics Amp at the bottom of his preferences. Subsequently he was forced to attend a listening test conducted by a respected HiFi journalist. They used the same Amps and repeatedly switched them, until in the end he didn't know if it was a listening test or Pancake Tuesday. Shortly after that the poor Sod had a nervous breakdown and never worked in the industry again. When it comes to subjective judgements, there are many factors to take into account. Sitting there like a Lab Rat under pressure is no way to exercise subjective judgement.
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 3, 2020 14:44:14 GMT
For many years was a cable sceptic. Having trained and lectured for many years, in Electrical and Electronic Engineering. How could they make a difference? Came back from working overseas for more than twenty years. Having sold my system over there before I left, time to replace it ASAP. One word on a wonderful Amp I left behind, a Sony V-FET integrated Amp. Went to a dealer and bought the setup, thought while I'm here why not buy some cable. Paid £4.50 per metre for Cable Talk 3.1 bi-wire speaker cable. Went home to set it up, flat and lifeless. Persevered for a couple of weeks and came to the conclusion, the tweeters were'nt operating. Sent them back to the makers and they came back with the frequency response graphs. Put them back on, still the same, so went out and bought some lighting flex. Bingo the system came to life. Since then have experimented with different cables and in my opinion they don't sound the same. Make my own power cables, using screened cables and find it works. With regards to supervised tests. Years ago a reviewer in HiFi Answers conducted a group listening test on amplifiers. He put a Technics Amp at the bottom of his preferences. Subsequently he was forced to attend a listening test conducted by a respected HiFi journalist. They used the same Amps and repeatedly switched them, until in the end he didn't know if it was a listening test or Pancake Tuesday. Shortly after that the poor Sod had a nervous breakdown and never worked in the industry again. When it comes to subjective judgements, there are many factors to take into account. Sitting there like a Lab Rat under pressure is no way to exercise subjective judgement. I'm a huge believer and promotor of the merits of various cables. |
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Post by misterc on Nov 3, 2020 14:59:37 GMT
I'm a huge believer and promotor of the merits of various cables. Really?? Wow you shock me Oli, would have never have guessed |
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 3, 2020 15:03:39 GMT
I'm a huge believer and promotor of the merits of various cables. Really?? Wow you shock me Oli, would have never have guessed Lol....I know... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2020 15:32:43 GMT
Back to the topic, digital? Using a Denon DCD2500NE connected to a Denon PMA2500NE. Playing red book CDs, they sound much better using the SPDIF output and the PMAs DAC. Rather than using the CD Player's DAC and analogue out. Both machines have identical DACs. Could it be my SPDIF cable is much better than the cables being used for the analogue outputs?
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Just unplugging a couple wires and plugging a couple more in their place, think I would.
