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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2018 12:57:38 GMT
I wonder how many cables RD's trained monkey made today?
S.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 26, 2018 14:04:51 GMT
None, I had a day off  I agree with Paul that it’s probbaly best not to drag Mike into this as he’s not a member and our rules were set to avoid any grief over forum personas. It’s easy to slip without realising it though. As for Tony/Coherent, I wouldl like it if he would join. It’s a tiny, tiny forum so it’s hardly likely that he will make his fortune by posting here but I’m trying to create a forum where trade can display their wares and can speak enthusiastically about their products without all those daft shilling arguments. I’m also interested to hear about his stuff first hand than from detractors who make assumptions about him and his stuff. So many people who make a living from hifi are doing so because they love the gear. It’s a pity to assume the worst, I feel. |
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Post by dsjr on Jun 26, 2018 14:18:54 GMT
I wasn't criticisng the person, merely the fact that he didn't like the speakers much to start with, so his 'friendly' dealer came round with a box of goodies to sell and proceded to make everything 'right' with add-ons - it's all on TAS, or was... It's COHERENT I have the beef with, selling UK-unkown products that may prove difficult to shift in future times and suspect add-ons to make the end user feel 'better' about their purchase; that an 'experienced' dealer is there to sort out the sound for a few more hundred here and a few more hundred there. At least KJ sell from a known and regularly reviewed portfolio, even if I think they too are now peddling ever more expensive foo a lot of the time.. I don't believe you or Mike have heard BIG active PMC Pro, big modern JBL's or ATC active monitors (plus other big pro speaker brands), let alone compared them to real life sounds. No tasty bling or fancy finishes, or expensive wires needed, but a more lifelike sound from the off than many top domestic stereo systems and able to give an open window into the recording venue and techniques used in the production which even top end domestic systems lose, especially if vinyl is a main source. Macca knows what I mean I think. Your money guv'nor and your ears, but I'd never trust your dealer Paul with a penny if my life depended on it..., so I'll shut up for now. As for plugs. RCA phono plugs really are the pits, but that's what we have and I agree with audionut above regarding Neutrik and MS-Starline as being about as good as you really need unless you want them to look the business on the outside. There are catalogues full of far eastern plugs at not silly money to the trade, some of them looking incredibly posh. get your name embossed on them and they immediately become hundreds each 
Sorry all. I've been too close to this Sh#t for far too long. HiFi's for the eyes as well as the ears. Bit like posh sports cars I suppose.
I am not sure that I will take that as apology as it isn't one. You have not only got the wrong end of the stick about the speakers, but you have rolled down the road on a log... he didn't dislike the speakers, in fact he really liked them from the start, but he then chose to make improvements beyond the speakers with ancillaries etc. You may be talking about the speakers that were in the middle, which were on loan, so honestly don't count. Oh and it's really none of your business, so maybe we should drop discussions about Mike and his system as it is annoying me. I can assure you that I have heard 'known and regularly positively reviewed products' such as the Naim NAC252, SC, 250 costing over £10k and they aren't a patch on my Belles amp which cost just slightly more than £2k. I am sure you'd say I got done, but I am afraid that in my world I believe I have done pretty well out of it. As you are aware, I also have a Beresford DAC which kicked the backside of a Audiolab MDAC and Rega DAC and Naim DAC which all cost vastly more money... so again, I probably got done there too. For me, Coherent Systems are the first 'Dealer' I have come across who have listened to what 'I' wanted, not tried to force anything down my throat, just made recommendations based on an extensive experience in the musical production world. I have never heard my Focal's sound so good, and every other dealer told me to sell them and buy something else. Oh and every other dealer tried to sell me Naim or Linn first... wonder why that would be! KJ, don't make me laugh, they are bought and paid for by the establishments. If you have such a problem with Coherent Systems, why don't you give Tony a call. I am sure he would be more than happy to have a discussion. Firstly though, I would try and experience their sales model before making negative remarks without having the full picture.
You'll probably never listen to a word I say now or probably in the future and that's sad for both of us, but suggesting your expensive? cables made at least as big a difference as a major component rang massive alarm bells for this old pro.
I've been there and done it remember - and hopefully come out the other side in the manner of an ex-smoker who now despises other smokers (I've never smoked, but I think I have it)... I know how dealers work, how much money they want to make out of the business and how money and its acquisition comes way before the hobby - real audio hobbyists buy second hand now anyway - look around on AOS and PFM.
I used to make 'special' low capacitance cables for my AVI customers back in the day. the difference was I never hid the source of the rg cables used (RS Components) and only charged around £20 for a metre pair (plugs and cable a fiver, the remainder labour in making them). Modern cable sources haven't changed much in price in twenty five years and good plugs (basic neutrik) are around £1-50 each, but I was doing it as a favour really, rather than as a retail item and I didn't dress them up with braided outer covers and miles of heatshrink to neaten them up. i was on the road for a while (total disaster) and I do know the true costs of some of these raw materials bought in bulk. That's why I can't understand the cost of Naim A5 when the copper content is the same as Cable talk 3.1 (£2.50 per metre *retail* at the time with 55% dealer margin) and seemingly coming from BICC too - maybe the insulation costs loads more but I don't think so...
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Post by pauld on Jun 26, 2018 14:26:36 GMT
My gosh, you didn't read a word of what I wrote did you, Dave?
To my ears the cables made more difference than any single box has ever made... but that is my opinion and I am allowed it. The fact that you don't agree with it is fine but stop peddling your point of view now, it is quite frankly boring the bejesus out of me.
Naim cable is expensive because they put a minimum of a 75% hike up on everything they sell. Without a Naim badge, it would probably be worth less than £2 a metre.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2018 14:28:21 GMT
That's it, you tell him Paul.
s.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 26, 2018 15:21:00 GMT
My gosh, you didn't read a word of what I wrote did you, Dave? To my ears the cables made more difference than any single box has ever made... but that is my opinion and I am allowed it. The fact that you don't agree with it is fine but stop peddling your point of view now, it is quite frankly boring the bejesus out of me. Naim cable is expensive because they put a minimum of a 75% hike up on everything they sell. Without a Naim badge, it would probably be worth less than £2 a metre. Then it's my opinion which I'm also allowed from this distance that there's something rather awry with your gear and-or rooom if the bits of wire to connect it all made that much difference as described - they really shouldn't, but that's my own opinion based on decades of selling and demming the stuff compared to yourself as a customer shelling out hundreds? for it and happy in the process. Cables should be as benign as possible and should never really act as 'components' in their own right. This means they're doing something by adding inductance or filtering or summat as Transparent Audio cables do.
Naim sell at ten times markup as many other people do. A5 at £25/m is probably £2.00 per metre or less from their suppliers. Mind you, it's a long time since it was a fiver a metre, but income hasn't gone up the same amount in that time - i don't know how many 100m drums they have to buy to get better prices though.
I'm finished now. No more to say...
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Post by pauld on Jun 26, 2018 15:43:19 GMT
We will go with the last line, that is the most sense you have made up to now.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 26, 2018 16:29:55 GMT
Its a successful business model, though. The starter kit is cheap and very good (cables and separates). The upgrades are often more of the same thing in the form of extra strands, extra lengths of cable or bigger/more transformers. The profits increase dramatically as people upgrade, yet nobody is disappointed because there are no sonic downsides. What you get is more of what you liked in the first place. You even get 100% trade in value on your old kit. NVA are open about where the profit lies too.
I realise you get and agree my point anyway but I just wanted it to be clear that there’s nothing wrong with making a profit. Just as there’s also nothing wrong with deciding you either want to stick with the best value kit or DIY your own upgrades either.
That was one thing I always liked about flat earth philosophy. Interconnects were well made copper at £20-30 a pop. Speaker cables were decent gauge dumbbell stuff at £2 a metre. No fancy prices. I still live by that and I suspect much of the changes have been profiteering. Raw cable isn’t usually expensive. Even if it is, will the differences make huge sonic gains? Surely it would take a super-conductor to do this? I remain skeptical but fully respect other people’s purchases, choices, intellects, sanity etc, etc, etc,
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Post by antonio on Jun 26, 2018 18:02:58 GMT
Question time, my brother uses 6 meter TQ green speaker cable and now only needs 3 meters. Does he:-
a) Sell and buy different brand 3 m. cable. Which brand?
b) Cut and re-terminate, but who to do this, since neither of us can solder.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 26, 2018 19:16:04 GMT
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 26, 2018 19:30:49 GMT
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Post by antonio on Jun 27, 2018 5:57:07 GMT
Thanks for the suggestions Westie. He is not to worried about the resale value, if they were cut and re-terminated, they have already lost 60% of their value already. Would probably like to move to a slimmer cable, the TQ is rather bulky. Never heard Crystal cable in isolation but it has a great profile unfortunately too expensive.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 27, 2018 6:52:02 GMT
I have always been a bit intrigued by LFD Hybrid ribbon, which might fit the bill. It comes in pre-made 3m runs too, so you might be able to get an loan of a set.
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Post by pauld on Jun 27, 2018 9:43:29 GMT
I would agree with Andrew, the best bet would be to look for alternative cable to avoid losing money on the ones your brother already has by cutting them etc. The other option I suppose would be to take them to a reputable dealer and ask them to sort the cables for you.
In my time, I have tried so many cables, but I have to say that the Coherent come out on top by a large margin. Admittedly they are probably double the price of the TQ, but they are in my opinion worth every penny. Oh and honestly, I wasn't sold on cables originally.
FYI Coherent make a range of cables, starting at a price point and then increasing as you go up the line, as with most organisations.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 27, 2018 10:51:20 GMT
The Coherent cables seem to range from £1200 to £2800 for a 3 metre pair. I’m not sure how that compares to other high end cables. Probably similar to the more expensive TQ? Unless I had a massive room, megabucks system and lots of money, I’m could never justify spending that much. Even then, I’d try to find a top notch DIY cable and try that route first.
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Post by pauld on Jun 27, 2018 10:53:04 GMT
I have tried all of the TQ range, and the Coherent are in a different league, but I can't deny they are quite expensive.
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Post by macca on Jun 27, 2018 11:23:59 GMT
The Coherent cables seem to range from £1200 to £2800 for a 3 metre pair. I’m not sure how that compares to other high end cables. Probably similar to the more expensive TQ? Unless I had a massive room, megabucks system and lots of money, I’m could never justify spending that much. Even then, I’d try to find a top notch DIY cable and try that route first. if we are going by price that is barely mid-range not high end. Check out how much you can spend if you want to (and you've got the money).
Personally I would not spend any more than a couple of quid a metre. It's just a wire that conducts electricity. Like insurance, it's far better to be the one selling it than it is to be the one buying it.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 27, 2018 11:38:20 GMT
I think I am still stuck in 1987 pricing. Not a bad place to be as a buyer Thankfully there’s so much used kit out there that is built to last. Otherwise I’d be priced out of hifi. |
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Post by antonio on Jun 27, 2018 12:28:44 GMT
He is not going to spend mega bucks on speaker cable, will just keep our eyes open and see what comes on the market.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 27, 2018 13:32:05 GMT
Long shot, but this stuff is what I use, The most expensive cable I’ve owned is NVA LS6 which it clearly betters for me. I get loads of silly objections when I say that but it’s the best cable I’ve tried and it works out at £4 a metre doubled up. Nobody’s making a big profit, and it’s not even a commercially available hifi cable, so it’s hard to see a downside. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12AWG-SILVER-PLATED-COPPER-WIRE-ETFE-YELLOW-VIOLET-5-METRES/301631117226?hash=item463a9d97aa:g:9qcAAMXQVT9S19OZI twist two lengths together per conductor. I use the large entry banana plugs you can get on EBay. They have twin clamping screws and so need to solder. This cable's details are: M22759/43-12-47 and the Nato Stock Number is 6145995476603. The seller told me it was surplus stock from an abandoned defence project. Other people on AoS and TAS use this cable. Doc Stewart also rates it highly. I’m told it’s the base cable for Chord Epic Twin and Super Twin. All I can say is it sounds great to me and hasn’t yet been beaten in any system I've tried it. I ran it against Vdh CS122 recent, and it was laughable how much better it was. |
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Post by antonio on Jun 27, 2018 17:14:59 GMT
I did see a thread on that cable on AoS and will bear it in mind. Just so it's clear in my head, you would use 8 lengths for a pair of speaker cables. Also why do you twist the cable, I remember reading this was not a good idea. NVA LS6 @ £430 for 3 mtrs would not be out of the way.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2018 19:18:49 GMT
I did see a thread on that cable on AoS and will bear it in mind. Just so it's clear in my head, you would use 8 lengths for a pair of speaker cables. Also why do you twist the cable, I remember reading this was not a good idea. NVA LS6 @ £430 for 3 mtrs would not be out of the way. I use this stuff too. Yes 8 lengths are needed: 2 for each banana plug. You can single wire it but it's so cheap there's no incentive unless you want a thinner profile to go under carpets. Twinned, it gives more bass and presence. Twisting cables is often misunderstood. It's only twisting the + and - together that increases capacitance. Better off just keeping them separate. Twisting a pair of wires going to the same banana plug won't increase capacitance at all. LS6 I haven't tried. Nobody seems to dislike it though, and you can return it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2018 19:28:15 GMT
If it is chord Epic Super Twin, that cable was REDUCED to £79 a meter for the raw cable. No wonder it compares well with expensive cable. I won't be changing it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2018 19:44:58 GMT
I have done a search and I recall this thread getting me interested. Hope it's ok to post a link? theaudiostandard.net/thread/2186/chriss-super-speaker-cablesThere's also a Wigwam thread and an AoS one but they are both linked/covered in the TAS one. I normally can't be arsed speaking up for anything I use, but this cable is silly cheap and stupidly good. I've spent more on fast food in a day than my speaker cables cost me. All I have to show for that is a bit of extra flab, so the speaker cable seems to have been a better buy |
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Post by dsjr on Jun 27, 2018 19:48:09 GMT
If it is chord Epic Super Twin, that cable was REDUCED to £79 a meter for the raw cable. No wonder it compares well with expensive cable. I won't be changing it. Chord dealers made 60% on each cable if they stocked most of it on their neat dedicated racks. You do the maths... |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 27, 2018 20:26:17 GMT
If it is chord Epic Super Twin, that cable was REDUCED to £79 a meter for the raw cable. No wonder it compares well with expensive cable. I won't be changing it. Chord dealers made 60% on each cable if they stocked most of it on their neat dedicated racks. You do the maths... That’s probably small change compared to what Chord made. I remember a video showing one of their REALLY expensive cables being made up. Loads of people said it was a coax cable that retailed for a couple of quid a metre. That’s what I keep coming back to: So many of these cables are simply “off the reel” stuff that a hifi company or “guru” has happened upon and decided to market at ten times the price......or more. That’s why I’m a DIYer when it comes to cable. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 27, 2018 20:31:14 GMT
Y’know much of the argument about cable would be made redundant if they weren’t over-priced because someone “discovered” their Hi-Fi properties. I well remember the uproar over SLIC cable. Most of that was because because it cost £500 a metre and had a patent pending. If it was £50 a set, nobody would’ve cared.
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Post by macca on Jun 27, 2018 21:22:23 GMT
£500 a metre is nothing, beer budget stuff. These Siltech Emperor Crown cables cost $40,000 a metre.  Good name though. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 27, 2018 21:30:12 GMT
£500 a metre is nothing, beer budget stuff. These Siltech Emperor Crown cables cost $40,000 a metre. Good name though. I think Emperor’s NEW crown might be more appropriate. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 29, 2018 12:11:41 GMT
I’ve been rereading this thread and I took away some different and partial understandings first time round compared to those I took away today. It’s human nature to do so, I guess because posts often have more content than we absorb on first reading. A bit like a good book I suppose.
A couple of things occurred to me after reading, which I feel are worth saying. Only my own perspective so I make no claims for anyone else’s truth, but here goes:
I’d far rather try a more expensive separate than pump big money into a cable that might be hard to sell on. Part of that is because I see more value in the separates. More pride of ownership and also a feeling like I’m getting better value for money.
I also don’t believe that better cables are likely to be more expensive beyond a few quid of outlay. You can only vary materials, thickness and construction. Beyond 4mm for speaker cables seems pointless from experience. Conductivity of different priced materials doesn’t vary greatly and spaced construction doesn’t cost a lot to achieve or vary. Cables have no components, mechanisms or other factors. They also vary in performance depending what you string them to. As a box swapper, I have found few cables that are universally good. I do believe in “differences”which can give significant tonal “improvements” or can have the opposite effect. Not worth paying big bucks for though, because they are then akin to tone controls. Sure you can argue that one cable is letting the real sound through and another is acting as a filter, but you have no real way of knowing because you can’t make comparable sounds with no cable.
I also have a few concerns about the consultancy idea for cables and accessories, depending on how it is conducted. Making no assumptions about anyone’s integrity, intelligence or ability to hear, I believe that having someone in your home to make changes and selling bits on the spot does not give you the chance to evaluate over time. I and many others have revisited “improvements” down the line to find they were nothing of the sort. Particularly with cables. The losses on expensive and often little known cables could be big, if you decided to sell on. If said bits are left with you to evaluate, then it’s a better solution, but I personally would still not put significant sums into cable service and accessories for all the other reasons outlined. As ever, YMMV.
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