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Post by macca on Jun 29, 2018 15:35:04 GMT
I agree. The whole process us a crapshoot. You can buy a cable for $100/metre, sounds great in your system but how do you know that you could not have got the same sound for $5/metre?
Answer is you don't, not without comparing every damn cable on the market. And there are literally thousands of them now because everyone wants a piece of that high-profit-margin-with-no-aftercare-requirements action.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 29, 2018 16:03:49 GMT
I really like the “no aftercare” point. Obvious when you say it but it had passed over my head until now. I’m sure that for an online seller it’s also less risky and costly in terms of shipping.
My own £1000 a metre range of cables will be ready soon. I will even post for free and give a 5 year guarantee against malfunction. Anyone want to pay a deposit to secure one of the first 50 pairs, hand signed by my good self?
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Post by dsjr on Jun 29, 2018 17:01:57 GMT
One of the best 'sounding' cables I ever heard turned out to be 'Ecoflex 10,' a massive diameter thing designed for very long runs. I struggled to find suitable RCA plugs for it as it's something like 11mm diameter and I wasn't into very expensive plugs, but the 'sound' is superb with none of the slight 'hash' I noticed sometimes from sub £200 dealer-bought cables. We sold a version of it made by a customer with ferrite at one end, nicer plugs than I used, for £200 or so. Cable price was under three quid a metre when I bought a couple of metres and it's bloody stiff to bend.. i still have and rate it, but can't use it at present due to bending stiffness. Too much and the plugs break... www.nevadaradio.co.uk/cables-leads-plugs/antenna-cable/ssb-electronic-ecoflex-10
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Post by macca on Jun 29, 2018 17:06:19 GMT
Looks like TV aerial cable. Frequencies up to 6 gigahertz. Shouldn't have much trouble doing justice to a recording of a piccolo then.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 29, 2018 17:11:20 GMT
Not a bad price for a well made cable. Maplins used to do a plug with a 12mm cable entry. I’ve saved the link and may have a dabble at some point.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 17:31:58 GMT
I really like the “no aftercare” point. Obvious when you say it but it had passed over my head until now. I’m sure that for an online seller it’s also less risky and costly in terms of shipping. My own £1000 a metre range of cables will be ready soon. I will even post for free and give a 5 year guarantee against malfunction. Anyone want to pay a deposit to secure one of the first 50 pairs, hand signed by my good self? You'd be an interesting artisan making and selling cables. S.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 29, 2018 19:00:55 GMT
I really like the “no aftercare” point. Obvious when you say it but it had passed over my head until now. I’m sure that for an online seller it’s also less risky and costly in terms of shipping. My own £1000 a metre range of cables will be ready soon. I will even post for free and give a 5 year guarantee against malfunction. Anyone want to pay a deposit to secure one of the first 50 pairs, hand signed by my good self? You'd be an interesting artisan making and selling cables. S. I have no talent in finding things, so I can only copy other people’s ideas. Sure that hasn’t stopped others but I’d not nick someone else’s discovery and make money off it. Copying for your own use is a different matter though, especially if it’s an off the reel cable. If I ever do “discover” a cable, I’d rather tell people about it and let them make their own,
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 23:57:03 GMT
One of the best 'sounding' cables I ever heard turned out to be 'Ecoflex 10,' a massive diameter thing designed for very long runs. I struggled to find suitable RCA plugs for it as it's something like 11mm diameter and I wasn't into very expensive plugs, but the 'sound' is superb with none of the slight 'hash' I noticed sometimes from sub £200 dealer-bought cables. We sold a version of it made by a customer with ferrite at one end, nicer plugs than I used, for £200 or so. Cable price was under three quid a metre when I bought a couple of metres and it's bloody stiff to bend.. i still have and rate it, but can't use it at present due to bending stiffness. Too much and the plugs break... www.nevadaradio.co.uk/cables-leads-plugs/antenna-cable/ssb-electronic-ecoflex-10Now that does look interesting. Might try it as a digital lead one day. All this 75 ohms needed is supposed to be boloxks anyway.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 30, 2018 7:51:45 GMT
In the early days of domestic digital, Paul Miller did some tests on the impedance matching of various transports and DACs. Worst of all was MERIDIAN, the soggy sounding 600 system being all over the place and the two boxes not even properly matching each other i recall! I seem to remember the early Linn Karik/Numerik matching quite well together, but 75 ohm? - can't remember and Linn changed these inside a few times in the mid 90's, altering the sound too and never told anyone...
You know, I think for short sub 2m runs, any good aerial or satellite cab'e nicely terminated will do for a digital cable. NVA's SC is reported to work a treat in this role too - it is as designed I believe, an airframe high frequency cable.
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Post by pauld on Jun 30, 2018 9:07:20 GMT
Talking about digital cables, if and when I can find the budget, I’m getting a Coherent coax digital cable. It was very good indeed.
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Post by pauld on Jun 30, 2018 9:08:56 GMT
I’ve also found improvements by using improved Ethernet cables for my streaming solution.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 30, 2018 9:33:15 GMT
Talking about digital cables, if and when I can find the budget, I’m getting a Coherent coax digital cable. It was very good indeed. They look posh, but what's actually inside - the donor cable?
I've retrained from appearing to shill NVA here, but the SC cable (selected RG316U although they are supposed to all be the same) was designed for high speed data transmission I believe and it works a treat as a stable digital interconnect over a couple of metres at least in my first hand experience. Others clain the doubled up SSC style works really well too, but half-capacitance aside, I don't know how other rf characteristics alter).
Even the Ecoflex 10 with suitable plugs would only cost twenty quid or so parts cost in a 1m run with posh looking plugs able to take the 10.4mm cable diameter.
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Post by pauld on Jun 30, 2018 10:08:24 GMT
Not sure what’s in them, maybe you should ask Tony?
I wouldn’t buy NVA.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 30, 2018 10:12:46 GMT
Talking about digital cables, if and when I can find the budget, I’m getting a Coherent coax digital cable. It was very good indeed. They look posh, but what's actually inside - the donor cable?
I've retrained from appearing to shill NVA here, but the SC cable (selected RG316U although they are supposed to all be the same) was designed for high speed data transmission I believe and it works a treat as a stable digital interconnect over a couple of metres at least in my first hand experience. Others clain the doubled up SSC style works really well too, but half-capacitance aside, I don't know how other rf characteristics alter).
Even the Ecoflex 10 with suitable plugs would only cost twenty quid or so parts cost in a 1m run with posh looking plugs able to take the 10.4mm cable diameter.
Interesting about RG316/u. They are all supposed to be the same but they aren’t. For one thing, it’s only a spec and doesn’t dictate exact materials, only how it should measure. And then there’s stuff that doesn’t even measure up because it’s fake crap. You can usually see the fake stuff by the jacket. The cheaper stuff has a crappy look when put alongside pics of the good stuff. It usually has sheen to it and you can see the braid more prominently through it. I can’t add anything in relation to how it fares as a digital cable though. If I’ve tried it, I can’t remember doing so.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 30, 2018 10:18:41 GMT
I liked the original Chord Codac. Lots written about how it was a coax cable straight from Maplin, but I can say it definitely wasn’t. I bought that cable and it had a different feel and inferior sound, it was clearly some form of off the reel coax but it did sound good. I absolutely hated the Audioquest digital cables. Worse than anything else I’ve tried. I recall Video Z was the dearer one. I’ve tried a few AQ cables over the years and I haven’t had a decent sound from any of them. The interconnects seem to lack clarity and sound like cheap patch leads. Speaker cables I’ve tried are about as good as the 42 strand stuff you’d pick up in Tandy or B&Q. I wouldn’t try any of their stuff now.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 30, 2018 10:51:57 GMT
There are catalogues of varous cables around and about but if you buy from a hopefully reputable supplier (Rapid, Mouser, RS, Farnell, Studiospares, Thomann) you can't usually go wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 12:10:11 GMT
I generally buy 'off the roll' and terminate cables myself. But not always!
I'm set for life with my speaker cables. Transparent Audio Musichord. It was comparatively inexpensive, but delivers a better sound than anything else I've tried and that's plenty.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 15:57:44 GMT
So I wonder if we should operate on a principle which is the opposite of what is considered gospel: if you can hear differences between interconnects it shows that the kit is not good enough.
I don't understand that, Macca.
Anyway...
Decent cabling makes a big difference to detail imo but I'd say not to stray far from the prices at the lower end of the WhatHifi best buy ranges - it'll be mass produced and probably perfectly fine.
Please don't attack me for saying "WhatHifi".
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 2, 2018 16:01:16 GMT
So I wonder if we should operate on a principle which is the opposite of what is considered gospel: if you can hear differences between interconnects it shows that the kit is not good enough. I don't understand that, Macca. Anyway... Decent cabling makes a big difference to detail imo but I'd say not to stray far from the prices at the lower end of the WhatHifi best buy ranges - it'll be mass produced and probably perfectly fine.
Please don't attack me for saying "WhatHifi".
Martin’s point is that people often say “if you can’t hear cable differences, your system is crap”. He suggests the opposite is true. The better your system, the smaller effect of cables because a great system doesn’t need the sonic shaking of cables. Only a poorer system will be made or spoiled by cable choice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 16:09:00 GMT
I don't understand that, Macca. Anyway... Decent cabling makes a big difference to detail imo but I'd say not to stray far from the prices at the lower end of the WhatHifi best buy ranges - it'll be mass produced and probably perfectly fine.
Please don't attack me for saying "WhatHifi".
Martin’s point is that people often say “if you can’t hear cable differences, your system is crap”. He suggests the opposite is true. The better your system, the smaller effect of cables because a great system doesn’t need the sonic shaking of cables. Only a poorer system will be made or spoiled by cable choice. That doesn't bode well for me then LOL
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 2, 2018 16:24:40 GMT
I hear greater differences with speaker cables. Always have, too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 16:32:42 GMT
I think all cables have a detrimental effect on the sound. Those perceived as sounding good are the ones that are having the least bad influence on the end result.
Strangely, this applies to 'digital' cables too, although you'd expect them to be unaffected. I hear distinct differences. I actually make one of the best around, specifically for use between CD and DAC. It works well with jitter busters as well.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 2, 2018 16:49:30 GMT
Great way to put it.
I didn’t know you made cables, promotion is just fine here if you’d like to,
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Post by macca on Jul 2, 2018 16:59:39 GMT
I hear greater differences with speaker cables. Always have, too. True for me too. But I don't get any consistency. I can try a speaker cable for a few weeks until some aspect of the sound starts to niggle, then swap in another and decide that is an improvement on the previous one, niggle is gone. But then on swapping back to the original I no longer hear the niggle and wonder what the hell my problem had been with it to begin with. I've got loads of sets of speaker cables and this seems to happen with all of them. I have one set that seems to ad to the bass end. Used with my Technics SLP1200 which has powerful bass it was too much, a visiting friend noticed this also, without any prompting. Swapped them out for something else, no longer too bassy. Months later using a different CDP, swap the bassy cables back in. Then swap the CD player back to the Technics. No longer sounds too bassy, despite being the exact same combination of equipment and cables that two of us both agreed made the sound too bass heavy. Does my nut in.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 17:09:01 GMT
I wonder how many here have had the QED Silver Anniversary experience? I found this speaker cable bright, coarse and grainy sounding, regardless of equipment line-up. I know others have felt the same way, but I dare say there are those who use the cable happily.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 2, 2018 17:59:33 GMT
I wonder how many here have had the QED Silver Anniversary experience? I found this speaker cable bright, coarse and grainy sounding, regardless of equipment line-up. I know others have felt the same way, but I dare say there are those who use the cable happily. Never heard a good word said about it. That put me off trying it. I’m sure it was either What Hifi 5 stars airs Hifi Choice Best Buy too.
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Post by pauld on Jul 2, 2018 18:11:53 GMT
I wonder how many here have had the QED Silver Anniversary experience? I found this speaker cable bright, coarse and grainy sounding, regardless of equipment line-up. I know others have felt the same way, but I dare say there are those who use the cable happily. I have some which I use in my second system which works Ok, but it is by far ones of the worse cables for brightness out there. When I tried it in my primary system, I barely listened to one track before wanting rid.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 18:13:16 GMT
I was recommended rg316 which I used for quite some time I thought they were really transparent and had a really tight bass. I enjoyed them so much that I decided to make a loan pair which did the rounds on Art Of Sound. The reviews that came back were split, about 50/50 as to whether they were any good or not. I then decided that, as I was such a fan, I would have a look for a better quality rg316. This led me to finding some rg316 that was made by Sommer. This stuff was the best rg316 I found anywhere, including the Harbour stuff from America. It has a carbon layer under the dielectric which gives it the benefits of a solid core cable but still is fairly flexible. If I recall correctly.
This cable was eclipsed in terms of transparency, soundstage and balance by the new cables I now make.
I don't believe that the worse your system, the more influence the cable has. actually, quite the opposite. The more revealing your system the more effect the cable will have.
Also don't forget that capacity will have a larger effect than anything else. I tried Van Damme cables that were ultra low capacitance Vs standard Klotz MC5000 and the differences between those cables were very apparent. I'd wager that if I were to demonstrate to any listener, that they would hear them. Maybe we can do this at the Bakeoff.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 2, 2018 18:22:52 GMT
I was recommended rg316 which I used for quite some time I thought they were really transparent and had a really tight bass. I enjoyed them so much that I decided to make a loan pair which did the rounds on Art Of Sound. The reviews that came back were split, about 50/50 as to whether they were any good or not. I then decided that, as I was such a fan, I would have a look for a better quality rg316. This led me to finding some rg316 that was made by Sommer. This stuff was the best rg316 I found anywhere, including the harbour stuff from America. Hi, this cable was eclipsed in terms of transparency and balance by the new cables I now make. I don't believe that the worse your system, the more influence the cable has. actually, quite the opposite. The more revealing your system the more effect the cable will have. Also don't forget that capacity will have a larger effect than anything else I tried Van Damme cables that were ultra low capacitance Vs standard Klotz MC5000 and the differences between those cables were very apparent. I'd wager that if I were to demonstrate to any listener the differences between the cables that they would hear them. Maybe we can do this at the Bakeoff. I would love to see a whole bake off devoted to cables and accessories, Bake off is probably the wrong word as it would be more of a group demo. My interest would be adding “improvements” to mains, interconnect, speakers, isolation etc, then removing the whole lot and seeing what perceptions were. So many believers and no believers. If a mix of the two was involved, I’d like to see if they came away with the same views they started with.
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Post by macca on Jul 2, 2018 18:39:43 GMT
I don't believe that the worse your system, the more influence the cable has. actually, quite the opposite. The more revealing your system the more effect the cable will have. . I was just throwing that out there as an idea. I can't say I've necessarily found that myself. But I try not to mess around with the cable side unless I have to, especially interconnects. The perceived differences are sometimes real but they are so tiny in reality that you don't really know what you are hearing. Have you ever tried identifying the interconnects blind? Even with 2 cables that you are confident with it is really hard, you really have to concentrate, unlike when you know which one is in circuit when it is 'night and day'.
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