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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 15:24:42 GMT
I have had a Caiman II, a Caiman SEG, with upgrades fitted by Stan (Supercaps and Capella headphone chip) Run from a Dorado and LDA linear PSU and my Asus Essence STX II. I even tried a Majestic DAC.
The thinking behind the Caiman SEG was to get rid of my headphone amp, and have a couple of boxes less in my system.
Maybe it is my ears, or my system but there is very little difference between what works out to be a (relatively) expensive DAC and my Burson Audio upgraded Essence STX II (V6 vivid Opamps).
Listening tests by me and others find very little difference in sound between the two DACs. So rather than go down the road of buying more DACs, do I consign myself to the idea that in fact all DACs share a similar sound as they contain similar chipsets? Or do I consider that my system is not revealing enough to show any big detail?
I have tried these on headphones as well as speakers, and still can’t really tell the difference...
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 27, 2019 16:01:17 GMT
I have had a Caiman II, a Caiman SEG, with upgrades fitted by Stan (Supercaps and Capella headphone chip) Run from a Dorado and LDA linear PSU and my Asus Essence STX II. I even tried a Majestic DAC. The thinking behind the Caiman SEG was to get rid of my headphone amp, and have a couple of boxes less in my system. Maybe it is my ears, or my system but there is very little difference between what works out to be a (relatively) expensive DAC and my Burson Audio upgraded Essence STX II (V6 vivid Opamps). Listening tests by me and others find very little difference in sound between the two DACs. So rather than go down the road of buying more DACs, do I consign myself to the idea that in fact all DACs share a similar sound as they contain similar chipsets? Or do I consider that my system is not revealing enough to show any big detail? I have tried these on headphones as well as speakers, and still can’t really tell the difference... It's hard to know what to think or say. Every DAC I've used has been different. There are clear differences in spatial detail, pace. Clarity, bass, timing etc. The best have made CD sound incredible and the worst have made it unlistenable. I'd never suggest anyone's system wasn't good enough to reveal differences and don't even believe it's beyond the average hifi. Some people can't hear cable differences yet speaker cables seem to make as much or more differences than changing amplifiers to me. I suspect that people listen/hear/process sound differently. That's why we get so many arguments. I'd recommend trying a pT De Capo with 20 or 22 bit filters, because you seem to hear in a similar way to others who like PT/Funk kit. If that doesn't float your boat, then for you it would appear that DACs aren't going to make much difference. I wouldn't base any opinion on various Hereford DACs because my experience is a that they are pretty limited and I couldn't live with one even in a 2nd or 3rd system. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 16:12:59 GMT
A De Capo isn’t going to be easy to find. Fortunately, I know someone who may have one.
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 27, 2019 16:15:53 GMT
A De Capo isn’t going to be easy to find. Fortunately, I know someone who may have one. Yeah, as long as you can have a listen. It certainly has an authority and naturalness that should set it apart from the likes of Beresford. If it doesn't sound any different to you, then you can probably rule out bothering with other DACs and just enjoy your music. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 17:44:08 GMT
The thing is, to my ears they both sound pretty good. One cost me €150, the other was more expensive.
So if I was to replace the SEG, apart from a DeCapo which could be difficult to source, what are the other options available?
My Asus Essence STX II lets me change Opamps to tweak the sound, and I have some Burr Brown ones to try in it at some point.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 18:32:46 GMT
Indeed DACs do sound very similar, as you would expect from "nearly perfect" equipment. The very nature of the beast is that frequency response will be perfectly flat from <10Hz to >20KHz and distortion will be less than 0.01% and so there will be no "obvious" differences, rather just small ish differences in things like front to back depth and ambience retrieval and degree of "glassiness" to the top end etc.
Of the various DAC's and CD players (same difference...) I have here I couldn't really tell the difference between them if I was not "sat in the stereo hot seat" and listening intently... you will not get the bloody obvious night and day differences that there are between speakers and cartridges for example!
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 27, 2019 18:35:18 GMT
It’s really hard to advise, because to me the Caiman 2 was so depressing, it just made me want to turn it off.
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Post by nonuffin on Oct 27, 2019 19:27:53 GMT
In the last 15 years I've had a lomg line of DACs in my system, some owned and a good number submitted for review. As has already been said by others here, there is little real difference berween any of them. The one that did stand out for me was a Roksan K3 which I did not want to return and the piggy back version of the Monarchy Audio M22.
My all time favourites have been the old 20 bit DACs like the PS Audio Ultralink which had real depth and solidity to the sound and despite regularly checking on ebay they seem to have almost vanished, only the fag packet sized tat these days.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 19:29:54 GMT
Funny you prefer the 20Bit as i always preferred HDCD CD discs..However i thought DAC's were a waste of money imho, Just bought a machine with an on board DAC..
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 27, 2019 22:17:50 GMT
I've had a few dacs these past few years, mdac brooklyn, weiss 202 and Ian's pi dac stack. Do they all sound different, yes, but the difference is modest against cart, speaker and room changes.
I'd have the Weiss back in a heartbeat from a sound pov, my functional requirements however have moved on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 10:26:02 GMT
So if all DACs are similar in sound, what difference does a coaxial cable between source and DAC have? Will a basic RG59 cable properly terminated be sufficient, or are gains to be had going up the price range?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 14:48:04 GMT
So if all DACs are similar in sound, what difference does a coaxial cable between source and DAC have? Will a basic RG59 cable properly terminated be sufficient, or are gains to be had going up the price range? I don't know if the RPI DAC hats really count in this thread, as there are purpose built for a specific use but IME, the DAC hats I have tried have all been quite obviously different.
I did compare a Xiang Sheng to a Bel Canto and a M2Tech Young and they were all different in soundstage and oddly in tone. The Bel canto sounding more full bodied than the other two, but the Young was a far better listen.
Recent comparisons have been limited but the Topping D30 was a real eye opener and a Khardas Tone Board was different again.
I would agree with the comments that Cartridges and cables having more of an effect, akin to maybe even swapping a component but I do hear a significant difference with most dacs I've heard.
The Chord Dave was epic in every area, except musicality (not the DACs fault) and the Beresford Caiman was totally unlistenable..
As for better/different cables, I still maintain that the easiest route to travel will provide better results, so for me, its got to be good quality stuff.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 28, 2019 17:50:12 GMT
So if all DACs are similar in sound, what difference does a coaxial cable between source and DAC have? Will a basic RG59 cable properly terminated be sufficient, or are gains to be had going up the price range? I don't know if the RPI DAC hats really count in this thread, as there are purpose built for a specific use but IME, the DAC hats I have tried have all been quite obviously different.
I did compare a Xiang Sheng to a Bel Canto and a M2Tech Young and they were all different in soundstage and oddly in tone. The Bel canto sounding more full bodied than the other two, but the Young was a far better listen.
Recent comparisons have been limited but the Topping D30 was a real eye opener and a Khardas Tone Board was different again.
I would agree with the comments that Cartridges and cables having more of an effect, akin to maybe even swapping a component but I do hear a significant difference with most dacs I've heard.
The Chord Dave was epic in every area, except musicality (not the DACs fault) and the Beresford Caiman was totally unlistenable..
As for better/different cables, I still maintain that the easiest route to travel will provide better results, so for me, its got to be good quality stuff.
Agreed. I would personally rank DAC differences slightly ahead of interconnects but behind amps or speaker cables. Defo behind cartridges. Obviously behind speakers. |
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 28, 2019 19:19:13 GMT
Theres way more range in sound of electronics than cables that connect them, think of the range from steely chord amps to melifulous se valve amps. For a lot of gear I'm of the opinion that youd have to choose broken cables to make any difference, for some gear with narrow SOA every cable sounds different.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 19:42:45 GMT
So there is potentially no reason to upgrade my coax cable then?
Is coax the preferred connection, or would a proper glass optical cable be better (bas on less airborne interference etc),
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 21:37:32 GMT
So there is potentially no reason to upgrade my coax cable then? Is coax the preferred connection, or would a proper glass optical cable be better (bas on less airborne interference etc), Up to you but I'd go Coax. |
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 28, 2019 22:23:33 GMT
The preferred connection will depend on the quality of the transmitting and receiving circuits
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 23:40:21 GMT
The preferred connection will depend on the quality of the transmitting and receiving circuits Doesn't optical transfer have to encode the information twice? I may be wrong but that's why I suggested coax. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 0:34:47 GMT
I cannot hear any difference what so ever between the two. I choose Optical cos it is immune from interference..
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2019 1:00:33 GMT
I’ve only dabbled with optical twice. Both times it seemed a bit more natural, but I couldn’t guarantee being able to pick them blind.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 1:22:21 GMT
If I went optical, it would probably be a QED référence lead, bought from Amazon, so that if I did not like it, I could send it back easily.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 6:43:32 GMT
Tried optical and coax many times and found coax more substantial.
Coax cables do vary in their effect on the quality of the sound for some reason, despite logic saying they should all sound the same.
I've only used DACs for CD replay, but each I've used (and that's many) has sounded different. I went through all the Cambridge Audio models of the time and was not impressed. The Audio Alchemy DACs were a useful step up and and the following Theta models I had were even better. I found what I was unltimately looking for when I tried the Monarchy Audio DACs, which are great. I have the M22B and M22C and would not part with them.
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Post by dsjr on Oct 29, 2019 9:32:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 10:47:10 GMT
I can't make out any difference between optical and coax (and can easily compare the two directly via the same DAC). Sometimes one seems a tad quieter than the other, but not with any degree of consistency.
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Post by macca on Oct 29, 2019 13:17:33 GMT
Except for a handful of DACs right down at the bottom of the league table (like the PS Audio) none of the hundred or so they have tested show any issues that we are actually going to be able to hear.
Whether the cables can affect anything is a different proposition. I did a comparison once with optical and coax - optical sounded slightly sweeter and softer. Preferred Coax. A small enough difference that it could easily have been imagined.
I'm interested to know what it was about the Caiman that made it 'unlistenable.' Not saying that all DACS sound exactly the same but I think anyone would find it a real test to spot differences blind. So 'unlistenable' seems a bit strong. Not heard the Caiman but did hear an earlier Beresford DAC in a mate's workshop system. Sounded perfectly fine to me.
The DAC in my 20 year old Sony CD player seems to be able to show up recording artifacts and is able to separate multi-tracking on vocals pretty obviously so I doubt it is missing anything at all. And there's no reason why it should be. I think the current obsession with DACs and the 'quality' of DACs is all a bit weird. No doubt driven along by reviewers, marketing men and people talking bollocks on forums.
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Post by alit on Oct 29, 2019 13:49:21 GMT
I think any perceived differences are more likely to be down to the output stage used than anything else.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 14:04:40 GMT
Except for a handful of DACs right down at the bottom of the league table (like the PS Audio) none of the hundred or so they have tested show any issues that we are actually going to be able to hear.
Whether the cables can affect anything is a different proposition. I did a comparison once with optical and coax - optical sounded slightly sweeter and softer. Preferred Coax. A small enough difference that it could easily have been imagined.
I'm interested to know what it was about the Caiman that made it 'unlistenable.' Not saying that all DACS sound exactly the same but I think anyone would find it a real test to spot differences blind. So 'unlistenable' seems a bit strong. Not heard the Caiman but did hear an earlier Beresford DAC in a mate's workshop system. Sounded perfectly fine to me.
The DAC in my 20 year old Sony CD player seems to be able to show up recording artifacts and is able to separate multi-tracking on vocals pretty obviously so I doubt it is missing anything at all. And there's no reason why it should be. I think the current obsession with DACs and the 'quality' of DACs is all a bit weird. No doubt driven along by reviewers, marketing men and people talking bollocks on forums.
The Caiman was really harsh and thin. Grainy. The HF's made me wince a coule of times. It was comprehensively outclassed by the Topping D30. The D30 was neutral but never harsh. Very well balanced and sounded quite refined.
It was hooked up to a Philips CD transport via Coax.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 14:05:14 GMT
Except for a handful of DACs right down at the bottom of the league table (like the PS Audio) none of the hundred or so they have tested show any issues that we are actually going to be able to hear.
Whether the cables can affect anything is a different proposition. I did a comparison once with optical and coax - optical sounded slightly sweeter and softer. Preferred Coax. A small enough difference that it could easily have been imagined.
I'm interested to know what it was about the Caiman that made it 'unlistenable.' Not saying that all DACS sound exactly the same but I think anyone would find it a real test to spot differences blind. So 'unlistenable' seems a bit strong. Not heard the Caiman but did hear an earlier Beresford DAC in a mate's workshop system. Sounded perfectly fine to me.
The DAC in my 20 year old Sony CD player seems to be able to show up recording artifacts and is able to separate multi-tracking on vocals pretty obviously so I doubt it is missing anything at all. And there's no reason why it should be. I think the current obsession with DACs and the 'quality' of DACs is all a bit weird. No doubt driven along by reviewers, marketing men and people talking bollocks on forums.
As is everything about hi fi!! Which is why about 80% plus of everything you will read on the subject that is said by non engineers is total bollox! As soon as you realise that what you are reading doesn't go on about things such as negative feedback, Power supply rejection ratio, Voltage amp stage linearity, Early effect, Miller effect, transconductance etc but does even mention interconnects, speaker cables, mains anything etc then you know you are reading something written by someone with less than zero knowledge of hi fi. Imagine motoring forums where all that was ever discussed was wax polishes, tyre sidewall blackener, go faster stripes, and pages and pages were wasted on a weekly basis discussing furry dice... and whether BP or Shell petrol makes 1mph difference... but nary a mention was ever made of pistons, camshafts, fuel injection systems, gearboxes etc.... and that any automotive engineer who comes along is likely to be told "you can't be much of an engineer if you don't realise that furry dice are more important to performance than a supercharger".... and feel my pain  It's a larf though innit  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 15:08:14 GMT
Except for a handful of DACs right down at the bottom of the league table (like the PS Audio) none of the hundred or so they have tested show any issues that we are actually going to be able to hear.
Whether the cables can affect anything is a different proposition. I did a comparison once with optical and coax - optical sounded slightly sweeter and softer. Preferred Coax. A small enough difference that it could easily have been imagined.
I'm interested to know what it was about the Caiman that made it 'unlistenable.' Not saying that all DACS sound exactly the same but I think anyone would find it a real test to spot differences blind. So 'unlistenable' seems a bit strong. Not heard the Caiman but did hear an earlier Beresford DAC in a mate's workshop system. Sounded perfectly fine to me.
The DAC in my 20 year old Sony CD player seems to be able to show up recording artifacts and is able to separate multi-tracking on vocals pretty obviously so I doubt it is missing anything at all. And there's no reason why it should be. I think the current obsession with DACs and the 'quality' of DACs is all a bit weird. No doubt driven along by reviewers, marketing men and people talking bollocks on forums.
As soon as you realise that what you are reading doesn't go on about things such as negative feedback, Power supply rejection ratio, Voltage amp stage linearity, Early effect, Miller effect, transconductance etc but does even mention interconnects, speaker cables, mains anything etc then you know you are reading something written by someone with less than zero knowledge of hi fi. Imagine motoring forums where all that was ever discussed was wax polishes, tyre sidewall blackener, go faster stripes, and pages and pages were wasted on a weekly basis discussing furry dice... and whether BP or Shell petrol makes 1mph difference... but nary a mention was ever made of pistons, camshafts, fuel injection systems, gearboxes etc.... and that any automotive engineer who comes along is likely to be told "you can't be much of an engineer if you don't realise that furry dice are more important to performance than a supercharger".... and feel my pain It's a larf though innit Of course, Only you engineers are qualified to talk about sound.
Just out of interest, do you see sound and electronics engineering as two different subjects or all the same?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 15:37:49 GMT
The preferred connection will depend on the quality of the transmitting and receiving circuits Doesn't optical transfer have to encode the information twice? I may be wrong but that's why I suggested coax. optical seems to work pretty well for the bulk of the internet, as does copper for the bit from your house to the big green box at the side of the road.... If both boxes are properly built, they cant be different as they send digital data which can be checked at both ends. However, since many hifi boxes are not properly built the cable may well make a difference. For example, SPDIF is specced at 75ohm termination which cant be achieved with RCA sockets (it need BNC)... |
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