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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 16:32:46 GMT
As is everything about hi fi!! Which is why about 80% plus of everything you will read on the subject that is said by non engineers is total bollox!As soon as you realise that what you are reading doesn't go on about things such as negative feedback, Power supply rejection ratio, Voltage amp stage linearity, Early effect, Miller effect, transconductance etc but does even mention interconnects, speaker cables, mains anything etc then you know you are reading something written by someone with less than zero knowledge of hi fi. Imagine motoring forums where all that was ever discussed was wax polishes, tyre sidewall blackener, go faster stripes, and pages and pages were wasted on a weekly basis discussing furry dice... and whether BP or Shell petrol makes 1mph difference... but nary a mention was ever made of pistons, camshafts, fuel injection systems, gearboxes etc.... and that any automotive engineer who comes along is likely to be told "you can't be much of an engineer if you don't realise that furry dice are more important to performance than a supercharger".... and feel my pain  It's a larf though innit  Of course, Only you engineers are qualified to talk about sound.
Just out of interest, do you see sound and electronics engineering as two different subjects or all the same?
Technically speaking an acoustician would be qualified to talk about sound and it is only sound once it has left the loudspeaker. Until that point it is a voltage varying in amplitude in sympathy with the recorded subject matter, often music. The way that this signal is recorded, replayed, amplified in both voltage and current and with the greatest possible fidelity to the original is mainly electronic engineering, often in conjunction with mechanical engineering and acoustics. All of which are academic pursuits and without which there would be no recorded music, never mind hi fi. Hence yes only engineers, or those with sufficient knowledge of these fields of engineering to have a proper understanding of the principles, are in any position to discuss hi fi in any terms beyond "Ooo that one has a nice tone" or "look at the size of them woofers!" or "wow huge VU meters! That HAS to be brilliant!"  QED then that most discussion on hi fi forums is akin to car enthusiasts discussing furry dice etc ad nausea. They don't know enough about gearboxes or turbo chargers to be able to discuss them so they pretend they don't exist and then magnify the importance (zero) of things like furry dice till they are the be-all and end-all of car ownership.... the direct analogy (wait for it!) being that the average audiophile hasn't a clue about say the impact of the PSRR of a cascoded voltage amplifier stage (here be dragons) and, needing something to chat about, magnifies the somewhere between zero and negligible impact of bits of wire, green pens, cable lifters, wooden boxes filled with soil even (and I can't believe I didn't make that up, and it is in fact real! FFS grounding boxes!? So lets be literal and put some ground in a box!? Really??) into the be-all and end-all of hi fi.... Then, to protect their "religious cult" from "heathens and non believers", they adopt the same principles as Christians who are lead to believe that people suggesting there is no god, and that science can explain evolution etc, are sent by the devil to test their faith!! So we get "we don't need experts", "my ignorance is as valid as your knowledge" (Isaac Asimov) and "how dare you come round here and tell us that 4 foot of 13A cable doesn't have magic properties!"..... psss, seen that naked emperor over there!? Don't tell anyone  Now where did I leave my coat |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2019 16:32:49 GMT
Except for a handful of DACs right down at the bottom of the league table (like the PS Audio) none of the hundred or so they have tested show any issues that we are actually going to be able to hear.
Whether the cables can affect anything is a different proposition. I did a comparison once with optical and coax - optical sounded slightly sweeter and softer. Preferred Coax. A small enough difference that it could easily have been imagined.
I'm interested to know what it was about the Caiman that made it 'unlistenable.' Not saying that all DACS sound exactly the same but I think anyone would find it a real test to spot differences blind. So 'unlistenable' seems a bit strong. Not heard the Caiman but did hear an earlier Beresford DAC in a mate's workshop system. Sounded perfectly fine to me.
The DAC in my 20 year old Sony CD player seems to be able to show up recording artifacts and is able to separate multi-tracking on vocals pretty obviously so I doubt it is missing anything at all. And there's no reason why it should be. I think the current obsession with DACs and the 'quality' of DACs is all a bit weird. No doubt driven along by reviewers, marketing men and people talking bollocks on forums.
The Caiman was really harsh and thin. Grainy. The HF's made me wince a coule of times. It was comprehensively outclassed by the Topping D30. The D30 was neutral but never harsh. Very well balanced and sounded quite refined.
It was hooked up to a Philips CD transport via Coax.
I'd certainly agree with grainy but it also sounded weak to me, as though it had a Sh#t power supply. Significant loss of perceived detail too, like you were using Bluetooth to stream MP3. I didn't personally find it harsh, just dull and poor. I had a very good Copland player at the time and it was in another league. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2019 16:40:30 GMT
One thing I'd never do is claim a universal truth for my experience, because I don't have any tech knowledge and I only go off what I hear. How much of that is the output, how much is the room and how much is my perception I genuinely don't know. I see myself in much the same vein as someone eating at a restaurant can ha e an opinion on the food that is largely personal, without having any knowledge of professional cooking or nutrition. .
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 17:09:54 GMT
@jez
Technically speaking an acoustician would be qualified to talk about sound and it is only sound once it has left the loudspeaker.
Completely agree, but isn't it at this point where the listener experience takes over? In my opinion, it is this distinguishable line between technical design and end user impressions that are often confused. Surely the Qualifications of the engineer end at the end of the voltage processing, rendering their opinion on the sound they hear as "qualified" as any punter? many engineers I talk to freely admit to being "mutton" at their age, and thus can't even hear what they've made in it's full potential.
Until that point it is a voltage varying in amplitude in sympathy with the recorded subject matter, often music.
Agreed
The way that this signal is recorded, replayed, amplified in both voltage and current and with the greatest possible fidelity to the original is mainly electronic engineering, often in conjunction with mechanical engineering and acoustics.
Isn't the way it's recorded and mixed the job of the Sound technician and the Producer of the material? Bugger all to do with the guys designing replay equipment.
All of which are academic pursuits and without which there would be no recorded music, never mind hi fi. Hence yes only engineers, or those with sufficient knowledge of these fields of engineering to have a proper understanding of the principles, are in any position to discuss hi fi in any terms beyond "Ooo that one has a nice tone" or "look at the size of them woofers!" or "wow huge VU meters! That HAS to be brilliant!"
Again, I would never argue a technical aspect that I hadn't thoroughly investigated due to not being an engineer but you're missing the point of HiFi discussion on forums. Members usually share an opinion or wish to read thoughts on the sound their equipment makes. Hardly anyone on any forum gives two Sh#t's about HOW things work, they are only interested in what it sounds like. This is also where engineers are pretty redundant, because what is shared is immeasurable. It's the opinion of the user that count's after the sound leaves the speaker.
I for one place value in the experiences of other. If a restaurant is highly recommended by people who eat there, you're more likely to go and try the place than if you read the chefs qualification list. Restaurants don't make money off the chef's CV, it's made off the food they produce, and more importantly the OPINION on that food, given by those who've never set foot in a food college and have no knowledge of food technology. If the chef placed more importance on their own opinion than of those who "eat the food" you'd have a pretty empty restaurant.
QED then that most discussion on hi fi forums is akin to car enthusiasts discussing furry dice etc ad nausea. They don't know enough about gearboxes or turbo chargers to be able to discuss them so they pretend they don't exist and then magnify the importance (zero) of things like furry dice till they are the be-all and end-all of car ownership.... the direct analogy (wait for it!) being that the average audiophile hasn't a clue about say the impact of the PSRR of a cascoded voltage amplifier stage (here be dragons) and, needing something to chat about, magnifies the somewhere between zero and negligible impact of bits of wire, green pens, cable lifters, wooden boxes filled with soil even (and I can't believe I didn't make that up, and it is in fact real! FFS grounding boxes!? So lets be literal and put some ground in a box!? Really??) into the be-all and end-all of hi fi....
Then, to protect their "religious cult" from "heathens and non believers", they adopt the same principles as Christians who are lead to believe that people suggesting there is no god, and that science can explain evolution etc, are sent by the devil to test their faith!! So we get "we don't need experts", "my ignorance is as valid as your knowledge" (Isaac Asimov) and "how dare you come round here and tell us that 4 foot of 13A cable doesn't have magic properties!"..... psss, seen that naked emperor over there!? Don't tell anyone
You are too black and white, Jez. NOTHING is black and white. I heard a grounding box. Made a positive difference in one system and a negative difference in another. You scoff at the idea but it's a fact that I heard these things. Double blind tested too. no expectation bias because I wasn't told what we were testing. You just cannot rule out anything because you don't believe in it.
Now where did I leave my coat |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 17:23:38 GMT
One thing I'd never do is claim a universal truth for my experience, because I don't have any tech knowledge and I only go off what I hear. How much of that is the output, how much is the room and how much is my perception I genuinely don't know. I see myself in much the same vein as someone eating at a restaurant can ha e an opinion on the food that is largely personal, without having any knowledge of professional cooking or nutrition. . Thing is Matey, we can both eat the same meal and both have wildly different opinions on it. What's is not OK is if one of us was to tell the other person they are wrong just because they have a food degree!
This is what gets on my tit's. Just because you have a qualification, it doesn't give you divinity over someone's opinion. You can say there's no technical reason for XYZ, but other than that, it is what it is......opinion.
it's not ignorance either, the ignorance is from those who deny or mock the experiences of other because they can't measure something.
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Post by macca on Oct 29, 2019 17:52:38 GMT
I think the problems start when the diners either like or don't like the food - which in itself is fine - but then they have to come out with a reason why - even though they know nothing about cooking and have no interest in learning.
So you get ridiculous explanations which can't possibly be true.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 18:03:35 GMT
I think the problems start when the diners either like or don't like the food - which in itself is fine - but then they have to come out with a reason why - even though they know nothing about cooking and have no interest in learning. So you get ridiculous explanations which can't possibly be true. It has to have a French sounding name though, otherwise it's just foo-food, probably with snakeoil dressing too. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2019 18:27:38 GMT
One thing I'd never do is claim a universal truth for my experience, because I don't have any tech knowledge and I only go off what I hear. How much of that is the output, how much is the room and how much is my perception I genuinely don't know. I see myself in much the same vein as someone eating at a restaurant can ha e an opinion on the food that is largely personal, without having any knowledge of professional cooking or nutrition. . Thing is Matey, we can both eat the same meal and both have wildly different opinions on it. What's is not OK is if one of us was to tell the other person they are wrong just because they have a food degree!
This is what gets on my tit's. Just because you have a qualification, it doesn't give you divinity over someone's opinion. You can say there's no technical reason for XYZ, but other than that, it is what it is......opinion.
it's not ignorance either, the ignorance is from those who deny or mock the experiences of other because they can't measure something.
I don’t have a problem with someone qualified telling me there is no technical reason why I hear differences, because I never claim any universal truth for my opinions. I just hear what I hear, As long as you aren’t claiming beyond your own subjectivity or challenging the laws of physics there should be no contention. The other side of the coin is when someone who knows their stuff is told they are wrong because someone hears something that has no objective foundation. If I was a tech, that would frustrate me. For me, it’s possible to respect technical advice whilst still accepting I hear what I hear. As long as I don’t ascribe any technical basis for my tastes and I don’t claim my tastes to be universal truth, it’s all good. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2019 18:28:44 GMT
I think the problems start when the diners either like or don't like the food - which in itself is fine - but then they have to come out with a reason why - even though they know nothing about cooking and have no interest in learning. So you get ridiculous explanations which can't possibly be true. Nail......head....hit. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 18:40:25 GMT
Thing is Matey, we can both eat the same meal and both have wildly different opinions on it. What's is not OK is if one of us was to tell the other person they are wrong just because they have a food degree!
This is what gets on my tit's. Just because you have a qualification, it doesn't give you divinity over someone's opinion. You can say there's no technical reason for XYZ, but other than that, it is what it is......opinion.
it's not ignorance either, the ignorance is from those who deny or mock the experiences of other because they can't measure something.
I don’t have a problem with someone qualified telling me there is no technical reason why I hear differences, because I never claim any universal truth for my opinions. I just hear what I hear, As long as you aren’t claiming beyond your own subjectivity or challenging the laws of physics there should be no contention. The other side of the coin is when someone who knows their stuff is told they are wrong because someone hears something that has no objective foundation. If I was a tech, that would frustrate me. For me, it’s possible to respect technical advice whilst still accepting I hear what I hear. As long as I don’t ascribe any technical basis for my tastes and I don’t claim my tastes to be universal truth, it’s all good. ^^^ This ^^^ |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 18:46:10 GMT
@jez
Technically speaking an acoustician would be qualified to talk about sound and it is only sound once it has left the loudspeaker.
Completely agree, but isn't it at this point where the listener experience takes over? In my opinion, it is this distinguishable line between technical design and end user impressions that are often confused. Surely the Qualifications of the engineer end at the end of the voltage processing, rendering their opinion on the sound they hear as "qualified" as any punter? many engineers I talk to freely admit to being "mutton" at their age, and thus can't even hear what they've made in it's full potential.
Until that point it is a voltage varying in amplitude in sympathy with the recorded subject matter, often music.
Agreed
The way that this signal is recorded, replayed, amplified in both voltage and current and with the greatest possible fidelity to the original is mainly electronic engineering, often in conjunction with mechanical engineering and acoustics.
Isn't the way it's recorded and mixed the job of the Sound technician and the Producer of the material? Bugger all to do with the guys designing replay equipment.
All of which are academic pursuits and without which there would be no recorded music, never mind hi fi. Hence yes only engineers, or those with sufficient knowledge of these fields of engineering to have a proper understanding of the principles, are in any position to discuss hi fi in any terms beyond "Ooo that one has a nice tone" or "look at the size of them woofers!" or "wow huge VU meters! That HAS to be brilliant!"
Again, I would never argue a technical aspect that I hadn't thoroughly investigated due to not being an engineer but you're missing the point of HiFi discussion on forums. Members usually share an opinion or wish to read thoughts on the sound their equipment makes. Hardly anyone on any forum gives two Sh#t's about HOW things work, they are only interested in what it sounds like. This is also where engineers are pretty redundant, because what is shared is immeasurable. It's the opinion of the user that count's after the sound leaves the speaker.
I for one place value in the experiences of other. If a restaurant is highly recommended by people who eat there, you're more likely to go and try the place than if you read the chefs qualification list. Restaurants don't make money off the chef's CV, it's made off the food they produce, and more importantly the OPINION on that food, given by those who've never set foot in a food college and have no knowledge of food technology. If the chef placed more importance on their own opinion than of those who "eat the food" you'd have a pretty empty restaurant.
QED then that most discussion on hi fi forums is akin to car enthusiasts discussing furry dice etc ad nausea. They don't know enough about gearboxes or turbo chargers to be able to discuss them so they pretend they don't exist and then magnify the importance (zero) of things like furry dice till they are the be-all and end-all of car ownership.... the direct analogy (wait for it!) being that the average audiophile hasn't a clue about say the impact of the PSRR of a cascoded voltage amplifier stage (here be dragons) and, needing something to chat about, magnifies the somewhere between zero and negligible impact of bits of wire, green pens, cable lifters, wooden boxes filled with soil even (and I can't believe I didn't make that up, and it is in fact real! FFS grounding boxes!? So lets be literal and put some ground in a box!? Really??) into the be-all and end-all of hi fi....
Then, to protect their "religious cult" from "heathens and non believers", they adopt the same principles as Christians who are lead to believe that people suggesting there is no god, and that science can explain evolution etc, are sent by the devil to test their faith!! So we get "we don't need experts", "my ignorance is as valid as your knowledge" (Isaac Asimov) and "how dare you come round here and tell us that 4 foot of 13A cable doesn't have magic properties!"..... psss, seen that naked emperor over there!? Don't tell anyone
You are too black and white, Jez. NOTHING is black and white. I heard a grounding box. Made a positive difference in one system and a negative difference in another. You scoff at the idea but it's a fact that I heard these things. Double blind tested too. no expectation bias because I wasn't told what we were testing. You just cannot rule out anything because you don't believe in it.
Now where did I leave my coat Lots is black and white! If I was to give my honest opinion of anyone who actually believes a grounding box could work then your AUP would go into a nuclear meltdown that could destroy the entire web! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 18:58:13 GMT
I think the problems start when the diners either like or don't like the food - which in itself is fine - but then they have to come out with a reason why - even though they know nothing about cooking and have no interest in learning. So you get ridiculous explanations which can't possibly be true. Yes, very good observation |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 19:01:16 GMT
@jez
Technically speaking an acoustician would be qualified to talk about sound and it is only sound once it has left the loudspeaker.
Completely agree, but isn't it at this point where the listener experience takes over? In my opinion, it is this distinguishable line between technical design and end user impressions that are often confused. Surely the Qualifications of the engineer end at the end of the voltage processing, rendering their opinion on the sound they hear as "qualified" as any punter? many engineers I talk to freely admit to being "mutton" at their age, and thus can't even hear what they've made in it's full potential.
Until that point it is a voltage varying in amplitude in sympathy with the recorded subject matter, often music.
Agreed
The way that this signal is recorded, replayed, amplified in both voltage and current and with the greatest possible fidelity to the original is mainly electronic engineering, often in conjunction with mechanical engineering and acoustics.
Isn't the way it's recorded and mixed the job of the Sound technician and the Producer of the material? Bugger all to do with the guys designing replay equipment.
All of which are academic pursuits and without which there would be no recorded music, never mind hi fi. Hence yes only engineers, or those with sufficient knowledge of these fields of engineering to have a proper understanding of the principles, are in any position to discuss hi fi in any terms beyond "Ooo that one has a nice tone" or "look at the size of them woofers!" or "wow huge VU meters! That HAS to be brilliant!"
Again, I would never argue a technical aspect that I hadn't thoroughly investigated due to not being an engineer but you're missing the point of HiFi discussion on forums. Members usually share an opinion or wish to read thoughts on the sound their equipment makes. Hardly anyone on any forum gives two Sh#t's about HOW things work, they are only interested in what it sounds like. This is also where engineers are pretty redundant, because what is shared is immeasurable. It's the opinion of the user that count's after the sound leaves the speaker.
I for one place value in the experiences of other. If a restaurant is highly recommended by people who eat there, you're more likely to go and try the place than if you read the chefs qualification list. Restaurants don't make money off the chef's CV, it's made off the food they produce, and more importantly the OPINION on that food, given by those who've never set foot in a food college and have no knowledge of food technology. If the chef placed more importance on their own opinion than of those who "eat the food" you'd have a pretty empty restaurant.
QED then that most discussion on hi fi forums is akin to car enthusiasts discussing furry dice etc ad nausea. They don't know enough about gearboxes or turbo chargers to be able to discuss them so they pretend they don't exist and then magnify the importance (zero) of things like furry dice till they are the be-all and end-all of car ownership.... the direct analogy (wait for it!) being that the average audiophile hasn't a clue about say the impact of the PSRR of a cascoded voltage amplifier stage (here be dragons) and, needing something to chat about, magnifies the somewhere between zero and negligible impact of bits of wire, green pens, cable lifters, wooden boxes filled with soil even (and I can't believe I didn't make that up, and it is in fact real! FFS grounding boxes!? So lets be literal and put some ground in a box!? Really??) into the be-all and end-all of hi fi....
Then, to protect their "religious cult" from "heathens and non believers", they adopt the same principles as Christians who are lead to believe that people suggesting there is no god, and that science can explain evolution etc, are sent by the devil to test their faith!! So we get "we don't need experts", "my ignorance is as valid as your knowledge" (Isaac Asimov) and "how dare you come round here and tell us that 4 foot of 13A cable doesn't have magic properties!"..... psss, seen that naked emperor over there!? Don't tell anyone
You are too black and white, Jez. NOTHING is black and white. I heard a grounding box. Made a positive difference in one system and a negative difference in another. You scoff at the idea but it's a fact that I heard these things. Double blind tested too. no expectation bias because I wasn't told what we were testing. You just cannot rule out anything because you don't believe in it.
Now where did I leave my coat Lots is black and white! If I was to give my honest opinion of anyone who actually believes a grounding box could work then your AUP would go into a nuclear meltdown that could destroy the entire web! It's not about believing that it worked, it's about knowing that on multiple occasions, the owner was able to demonstrate that it had an effect on the system it was plugged Into. Then some tech guy saying it CAN'T work. I dont know whether it worked as Intended, just that there was an audible difference when plugged in Vs out. I wouldn't put one in my system based on wgat I heard But to claim it cannot have an effect, is bull Sh#t. It just proves my point that if techy guys can't measure it, they refuse to acknowledge any possibilities |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 19:05:11 GMT
Thing is Matey, we can both eat the same meal and both have wildly different opinions on it. What's is not OK is if one of us was to tell the other person they are wrong just because they have a food degree!
This is what gets on my tit's. Just because you have a qualification, it doesn't give you divinity over someone's opinion. You can say there's no technical reason for XYZ, but other than that, it is what it is......opinion.
it's not ignorance either, the ignorance is from those who deny or mock the experiences of other because they can't measure something.
I don’t have a problem with someone qualified telling me there is no technical reason why I hear differences, because I never claim any universal truth for my opinions. I just hear what I hear, As long as you aren’t claiming beyond your own subjectivity or challenging the laws of physics there should be no contention. The other side of the coin is when someone who knows their stuff is told they are wrong because someone hears something that has no objective foundation. If I was a tech, that would frustrate me. For me, it’s possible to respect technical advice whilst still accepting I hear what I hear. As long as I don’t ascribe any technical basis for my tastes and I don’t claim my tastes to be universal truth, it’s all good. I completely agree but as I say, rarely, if ever do the technical guys accept the subjective opinion of the unqualified. That's what gets on my nerves. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 29, 2019 19:50:52 GMT
I don’t have a problem with someone qualified telling me there is no technical reason why I hear differences, because I never claim any universal truth for my opinions. I just hear what I hear, As long as you aren’t claiming beyond your own subjectivity or challenging the laws of physics there should be no contention. The other side of the coin is when someone who knows their stuff is told they are wrong because someone hears something that has no objective foundation. If I was a tech, that would frustrate me. For me, it’s possible to respect technical advice whilst still accepting I hear what I hear. As long as I don’t ascribe any technical basis for my tastes and I don’t claim my tastes to be universal truth, it’s all good. I completely agree but as I say, rarely, if ever do the technical guys accept the subjective opinion of the unqualified. That's what gets on my nerves. Yeah, there has to be a live and let live approach. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 19:54:55 GMT
I don’t have a problem with someone qualified telling me there is no technical reason why I hear differences, because I never claim any universal truth for my opinions. I just hear what I hear, As long as you aren’t claiming beyond your own subjectivity or challenging the laws of physics there should be no contention. The other side of the coin is when someone who knows their stuff is told they are wrong because someone hears something that has no objective foundation. If I was a tech, that would frustrate me. For me, it’s possible to respect technical advice whilst still accepting I hear what I hear. As long as I don’t ascribe any technical basis for my tastes and I don’t claim my tastes to be universal truth, it’s all good. I completely agree but as I say, rarely, if ever do the technical guys accept the subjective opinion of the unqualified. That's what gets on my nerves. There is as much chance of an improvement or change in sound due to placing a tin of mung beans on top of your coal shed as there is of a grounding box making any difference.... The fact that the unqualified will still claim it makes a difference... when it is quite literally impossible, is what gets on my nerves... I trust that if someone said that adding a single drop of holy water to the coolant in your motorbike would make it 10mph faster then you would treat it with the derision it deserves? (I hope so!). So why would you believe that connecting a wooden box full of soil to your hi fi would or could work?! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 20:01:46 GMT
So is that coax or optical then?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 21:45:28 GMT
I completely agree but as I say, rarely, if ever do the technical guys accept the subjective opinion of the unqualified. That's what gets on my nerves. There is as much chance of an improvement or change in sound due to placing a tin of mung beans on top of your coal shed as there is of a grounding box making any difference.... The fact that the unqualified will still claim it makes a difference... when it is quite literally impossible, is what gets on my nerves... I trust that if someone said that adding a single drop of holy water to the coolant in your motorbike would make it 10mph faster then you would treat it with the derision it deserves? (I hope so!). So why would you believe that connecting a wooden box full of soil to your hi fi would or could work?! Like I said, refusal to accept others opinions. |
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 29, 2019 22:02:23 GMT
I'm totally prepared to believe that messing about with the routing of your farthing can have audible effects, and that getting right can have benefits. That doesn't extend to soil filled boxes though.
Back on topic.
I have three transformer output stages in the house for my dac currently. All three sound slightly different. They all sound more like each other than they sound like the opamp output stage.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 23:21:16 GMT
I'm totally prepared to believe that messing about with the routing of your farthing can have audible effects, and that getting right can have benefits. That doesn't extend to soil filled boxes though. Back on topic. I have three transformer output stages in the house for my dac currently. All three sound slightly different. They all sound more like each other than they sound like the opamp output stage. No, soil filled boxes are, as you say, beyong acceptance but the particular one I refer to isn't made of such Foo, its a solid, doesn't make a noise if you shaken it and is not vacuum sealed, thus ruling out a liquid. What it is, I dont know. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2019 8:05:20 GMT
I'm totally prepared to believe that messing about with the routing of your farthing can have audible effects, and that getting right can have benefits. That doesn't extend to soil filled boxes though. Back on topic. I have three transformer output stages in the house for my dac currently. All three sound slightly different. They all sound more like each other than they sound like the opamp output stage. No, soil filled boxes are, as you say, beyong acceptance but the particular one I refer to isn't made of such Foo, its a solid, doesn't make a noise if you shaken it and is not vacuum sealed, thus ruling out a liquid. What it is, I dont know. Yeah. Stick to the Shakti Stones, you know where you stand with those.................fleeced, like a mug! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2019 8:13:11 GMT
No, soil filled boxes are, as you say, beyong acceptance but the particular one I refer to isn't made of such Foo, its a solid, doesn't make a noise if you shaken it and is not vacuum sealed, thus ruling out a liquid. What it is, I dont know. Yeah. Stick to the Shakti Stones, you know where you stand with those.................fleeced, like a mug!  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2019 11:36:53 GMT
I think any perceived differences are more likely to be down to the output stage used than anything else. Sometimes. The Musical Fidelity DAC I use XDACV8, has a valve and solid state output stage, absolutely no difference. The best DAC I have heard to date has been the Line Magnetic LM502CA. That has a tube and Solid state output stage, and with that one there was a marked difference, I prefered the Tube output. Just the clarity and resolution of this DAC said to me no DAC's do not all sound the same, this one in my opinion was special. Cant afford one bugger. I have some NOS 6922 valves here, perhaps I should try changing the tube on the XDAC. My Jolida JD 100 CDP has a valve output stage and that CDP sounds as good as it gets just on it's own, even against DAC's & CDP's costing silly money. The Line Magnetic gave it a kick in the pants, it has been the only DAC so far that made it sound better. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 17:39:40 GMT
So my beloved Asus sound card has a BB PCM 1792A DAC chip in it. Is the DAC chip responsible for the majority of the sound signal?
I changed out my Burson Audio V6 vivid op amps for some BB 2228P and I really like the sound of it playing directly into my system.
If I use the coax out (Canare LV-61S) to the Graham Slee Majestic DAC, I don’t like the sound as much, as it seems a little duller in comparison. Is this down to the chip? I believe it is a Wolfson chip of some kind? Or is the cable in need of improvement?
Switching between the Asus and my upgraded SEG, I am struggling to tell the difference.
It is a shame that none of you lot live a bit closer, as a second opinion is always useful.
I will have to bore old pinkman on one of his future visits....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 17:53:56 GMT
What DAC chip does the SEG use?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 19:08:11 GMT
Apparently a Wolfson chip, from what I have read on the net.
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Post by sq225917 on Nov 18, 2019 19:45:56 GMT
The dac chip choice probably contributes least to the sound of any dac as they are all more of less perfect when implemented perfectly.
Psu, layout, output stage, clocks, all have a bearing on the sound. Implementation is all.
I've taken my own dac board and switched clocks, psu provision, and output stage and all had an effect.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 19:56:04 GMT
Thanks for the feedback.
When the Caiman SEG and Asus sound very similar, I was leaning towards the implementation being more important.
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