Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 12:48:37 GMT
I had to look that up... and apparently it is 100% pure copper.. which will make no difference. Ohms Law is always right. That's why it's a law! I don't trust your ears, my ears or any ones ears as expectation bias is a powerful thing.... If it can't be spotted in a double blind test then it makes no difference. A good illustration, which I've seen others agree with, is that there has been times when on a specific evening I've thought my system was sounding spectacularly good, but then the next day, with nothing adjusted in any way and with the same CD or record still there from the previous evening, I've merely switched it all on again and sat down to listen... and thought "FFS what was I thinking last night!!?? That's crap!" So much can be down to the mood you are in, maybe how much sleep you had, how many coffees you had earlier or whatever other variables come into play and which can alter the way your brain perceives what your ears are telling it... Perhaps, for the benefit of those like me, you can explain how Ohms Law is applicable to the conductivity of a metal or other material? Also IACs is a measurement of the ability of materials to conduct. Silver tops it at 106 with copper at 100 Technically speaking, its a measured result of the conductivity of metals, so for me, when my ears told me that there was a difference between solid silver rca plugs and gold plated copper, prior to doing any research, the research confirmed my thoughts. IACS - International Annealed Copper Standard. I'm well aware of the conductivity of different metals and it has bugger all relevance to hifi connectors etc. V= IR In other words Volts = Amps x Ohms. This is the voltage developed across a resistance due to a current flowing through it. It's as SQ225917 says really but in the case of interconnects and their plugs and sockets it makes at least a 1000 times less difference still as currents are very small. What you are arguing is analogous to arguing about how well the QEII's anchor chain can handle lifting a bag of sugar and how important (in your view) it is that it's made as strong as possible.... "if we add more chrome moly to the steel it will be 5% stronger still!"... erm yeah but it could already lift 100 lorries and you're only trying to lift a bag of sugar! For phono plugs etc you could use metal ten times or a hundred times less conductive than copper and it would make F#ck all difference! I take it you "believe in" the laws of gravity? 'cos you can SEE the effect.... and what would you think of someone who says they don't believe in the laws of gravity? This is no different! To think the things you are saying above etc can actually have an effect on sound is equally ridiculous to thinking that the laws of gravity also don't apply within the vicinity of hi fi equipment! Just because you can't see electricity doesn't make it something where you can imagine things or make them up! Let's "do the math" as our colonial cousins are fond of saying.... (NB. Due to confusion with nomenclature between mathematicians and engineers, current is "I" when specifically being quoted in an equation in electronics and not A for Amps.... although we would express the answer as A) First of all we need some typical figures to put into the equations and we need to know the current we're dealing with so another part of Ohm's Law is used. We will assume a line level signal of 1V going into a typical input impedance of 50K. I =V/R so 1/50000 = 0.00002A So, we have a current of only 0.00002A in play here. What then is the loss due to the resistance of the phono socket and plug? A reasonable ball park figure for the resistance of the plug and socket would be 0.01 Ohm Putting this into the first equation, V= IR we get 0.00002 x 0.01 = 0.0000002V dropped across the resistance of the plug and socket.... Or to put it another way we lose a fifth of a millionth of a Volt! Devastating eh?  That's 0.2 PPM (Parts Per Million) Worse still for the foo meisters this "huge" loss is perfectly linear, so its only effect is to reduce the volume a bit.... as in maybe a millionth of a degree of rotation of the volume control! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 13:00:46 GMT
Perhaps, for the benefit of those like me, you can explain how Ohms Law is applicable to the conductivity of a metal or other material? Also IACs is a measurement of the ability of materials to conduct. Silver tops it at 106 with copper at 100 Technically speaking, its a measured result of the conductivity of metals, so for me, when my ears told me that there was a difference between solid silver rca plugs and gold plated copper, prior to doing any research, the research confirmed my thoughts. IACS - International Annealed Copper Standard. I'm well aware of the conductivity of different metals and it has bugger all relevance to hifi connectors etc. V= IR In other words Volts = Amps x Ohms. This is the voltage developed across a resistance due to a current flowing through it. It's as SQ225917 says really but in the case of interconnects and their plugs and sockets it makes at least a 1000 times less difference still as currents are very small. What you are arguing is analogous to arguing about how well the QEII's anchor chain can handle lifting a bag of sugar and how important (in your view) it is that it's made as strong as possible.... "if we add more chrome moly to the steel it will be 5% stronger still!"... erm yeah but it could already lift 100 lorries and you're only trying to lift a bag of sugar! For phono plugs etc you could use metal ten times or a hundred times less conductive than copper and it would make F#ck all difference! I take it you "believe in" the laws of gravity? 'cos you can SEE the effect.... and what would you think of someone who says they don't believe in the laws of gravity? This is no different! To think the things you are saying above etc can actually have an effect on sound is equally ridiculous to thinking that the laws of gravity also don't apply within the vicinity of hi fi equipment! Just because you can't see electricity doesn't make it something where you can imagine things or make them up! Let's "do the math" as our colonial cousins are fond of saying.... (NB. Due to confusion with nomenclature between mathematicians and engineers, current is "I" when specifically being quoted in an equation in electronics and not A for Amps.... although we would express the answer as A) First of all we need some typical figures to put into the equations and we need to know the current we're dealing with so another part of Ohm's Law is used. We will assume a line level signal of 1V going into a typical input impedance of 50K. I =V/R so 1/50000 = 0.00002A So, we have a current of only 0.00002A in play here. What then is the loss due to the resistance of the phono socket and plug? A reasonable ball park figure for the resistance of the plug and socket would be 0.01 Ohm Putting this into the first equation, V= IR we get 0.00002 x 0.01 = 0.0000002V dropped across the resistance of the plug and socket.... Or to put it another way we lose a fifth of a millionth of a Volt! Devastating eh? That's 0.2 PPM (Parts Per Million) Worse still for the foo meisters this "huge" loss is perfectly linear, so its only effect is to reduce the volume a bit.... as in maybe a millionth of a degree of rotation of the volume control! I remember a while back when you found a way to explain 'torque' in a unity gain preamp, right around the time I built the first DCB1. You did a great job then, and you've done another great job here. That's a cracking post. 1 question, I don't dare question the Math, but reading all this, I don't understand why there is an audible difference between cables etc. I'd love to not hear these differences, believe me, it's cheaper but I have demonstrated them on unknowing subjects. They called it without even knowing they were being tested. How do we explain that away? |
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Oct 23, 2019 16:47:23 GMT
Mostly there isn't. But where there is due, it's due to high capacitance, high inductance and putting cables with zero shielding in poor environments.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 16:56:24 GMT
Mostly there isn't. But where there is due, it's due to high capacitance, high inductance and putting cables with zero shielding in poor environments. Hmm, interesting |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 17:18:52 GMT
Amazing how many scientists you get on Hi-Fi forums |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 17:41:37 GMT
Amazing how many scientists you get on Hi-Fi forums A surprising amount of idiots too.  |
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Oct 23, 2019 20:47:36 GMT
Resistance affects all frequencies equally, hence it's not a driver for sound differences. Capacitance and inductance, above certain values, are none linear, They cause phase and frequency shifts.
Think about it, volume pots dont tilt the sound as you twist them, because they're pretty much purely resistive devices at audio frequencies.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 21:28:00 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 23:04:10 GMT
A bit harsh Bill. Quite enjoying this thread myself. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 23:04:49 GMT
Resistance affects all frequencies equally, hence it's not a driver for sound differences. Capacitance and inductance, above certain values, are none linear, They cause phase and frequency shifts. Think about it, volume pots dont tilt the sound as you twist them, because they're pretty much purely resistive devices at audio frequencies. So what about conductor size. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 23:14:49 GMT
Resistance affects all frequencies equally, hence it's not a driver for sound differences. Capacitance and inductance, above certain values, are none linear, They cause phase and frequency shifts. Think about it, volume pots dont tilt the sound as you twist them, because they're pretty much purely resistive devices at audio frequencies. So what about conductor size. You know my view mate. Conductor cross section is generally more important than choice of conductor metal, within sensible limits of course. If you have a big chunk of brass or bronze for instance, it will conduct just as adequately as a chunk of copper or silver. Contact area and surface mating pressure are more important in my opinion. Audible differences imply that other factors may be at work. |
|
|
|
Post by mayebaza on Oct 29, 2019 18:38:36 GMT
I’m always tinkering with my gear, can’t stop myself lol. 1+ |
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Oct 29, 2019 21:50:39 GMT
All other things being equal a decent thickness will suffice, 2mm per 100 watts on speaker cables, 1mm on any ic. More is overkill.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 23:27:05 GMT
All other things being equal a decent thickness will suffice, 2mm per 100 watts on speaker cables, 1mm on any ic. More is overkill. Soooooo, if I were to have made a set of Interconnects with 2.5mm wire....... Lol |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 13:19:07 GMT
If you feel the need to Mod, you should have saved a wee bit harder and bought something that requires no Modding.
?🤔
|
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Nov 21, 2019 15:42:07 GMT
Because I can achieve for 50 quid what a retail product would increase in price by 500 quid to achieve.
I wish I was as rich as Croesus, like you are. Then I could flaunt my wealth on hifi forums to unimpressed punters.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,408
|
Post by Bigman80 on Nov 21, 2019 16:26:55 GMT
If you feel the need to Mod, you should have saved a wee bit harder and bought something that requires no Modding. ?🤔 🤣🤣 Good grief man, that's exactly WHY we do the modding. So we don't have to line the pockets of greedy bastard type manufacturers. As Si says, why would you pay £5k for a preamp, when you can build one of equal or better performance for 10% of that cost?? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 16:35:08 GMT
If you feel the need to Mod, you should have saved a wee bit harder and bought something that requires no Modding. ?🤔 🤣🤣 Good grief man, that's exactly WHY we do the modding. So we don't have to line the pockets of greedy bastard type manufacturers. As Si says, why would you pay £5k for a preamp, when you can build one of equal or better performance for 10% of that cost?? Two different things. You and Simon are talking about building. Harrison is talking about modding something rather than just buying something better in the first place. I realise it may be cheaper to improve an okay product but I'm with him in preferring to just buy something better. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,408
|
Post by Bigman80 on Nov 21, 2019 17:17:05 GMT
🤣🤣 Good grief man, that's exactly WHY we do the modding. So we don't have to line the pockets of greedy bastard type manufacturers. As Si says, why would you pay £5k for a preamp, when you can build one of equal or better performance for 10% of that cost?? Two different things. You and Simon are talking about building. Harrison is talking about modding something rather than just buying something better in the first place. I realise it may be cheaper to improve an okay product but I'm with him in preferring to just buy something better. Well, yes. I get that but do people think that the price of an item correlates directly to its quality and makes it immune to modification? It doesn't. Take any EAR preamp for instance. It's full of cheap, but correct value components (in general) . Say you spend £10k on one, which is fairly normal. I'm afraid the Volume Control will still be W#nk because he puts Alps blue pots in there. There is no way, I could leave it in. How much more do you need to *save* before you get the level of build quality you want? What if that combination of mods you insist on isn't available at any price? Modding is an essential part of my system. I've modded my amplifier and it's better for it. It's the most expensive one he sells. |
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Nov 21, 2019 17:22:27 GMT
Even diy stuff gets modded, choice parts different psu arrangements, few people follow the bom to the letter.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 20:37:51 GMT
But a top notch system component wouldn't need modding.
Only poop system components would need modding to try and emulate top notch system components.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 20:46:35 GMT
I guess anything can me modded. But I do agree with harrison.
S.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 20:49:12 GMT
💗 Shane.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,408
|
Post by Bigman80 on Nov 21, 2019 20:50:29 GMT
But a top notch system component wouldn't need modding. Only poop system components would need modding to try and emulate top notch system components. That's just not true. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 20:55:34 GMT
Yes it is....🙊🙉🙈
|
|
|
|
Post by raygun on Nov 21, 2019 21:05:54 GMT
Is this the ten minute argument?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 21:06:56 GMT
Oh no it isn't .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 21:11:38 GMT
He started it.........🤔
|
|
|
|
Post by raygun on Nov 21, 2019 21:12:17 GMT
no he didn't
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2019 21:15:52 GMT
|
|
That's 0.2 PPM (Parts Per Million)
