orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Jul 1, 2020 10:25:05 GMT
I am really surprised that going to 9.5V made a difference.
This is because the 9V supply is not directly used by anything on the DAC. All power supplies are derived from it.
Do not go any higher that 9.5V.
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Post by antonio on Jul 1, 2020 10:40:03 GMT
Very diplomatic there Alan.  Would us with normal hearing be able to spot these differences? Why hasn't Leo made these changes already to the Pecan? The Topping, now sounding flat and 2 dimensional, I have my doubts. If the Pecan is this good my brother will be part ex'ing his dCS. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 11:51:34 GMT
What's the theory on increasing the supply voltage? I assume it's being regulated inside anyway?
Edit - Just noticed later posts so this might have been (sort of) answered.....
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Jul 1, 2020 12:17:28 GMT
What's the theory on increasing the supply voltage? I assume it's being regulated inside anyway? Edit - Just noticed later posts so this might have been (sort of) answered.....
His observation does not make sense to me, this is because the 9V is not used for anything directly. It is regulated down to other voltages. This is why I do no understand why 9.5V sounded better. Maybe this is a psychoacoustic effect. |
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Jul 1, 2020 12:20:09 GMT
Why hasn't Leo made these changes already to the Pecan? What changes are you referring to? The PecanPi does have an optional steel case, which will work better than aluminum. The new version of the board is slightly upgraded and comes with XLR to RCA adapters. RCA sockets are no longer built-in. As for the 9.5V, please see my other comments.   |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 12:44:05 GMT
What's the theory on increasing the supply voltage? I assume it's being regulated inside anyway? Edit - Just noticed later posts so this might have been (sort of) answered.....
His observation does not make sense to me, this is because the 9V is not used for anything directly. It is regulated down to other voltages. This is why I do no understand why 9.5V sounded better. Maybe this is a psychoacoustic effect.
I meant you had, sort of, answered it in that it should make little to no difference.....
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Post by jimbo on Jul 1, 2020 12:56:53 GMT
Well that was a big uplift I feel and I enjoyed the tale very much Oli. It seems that there are configurations and tweaks that can be done to digital components that really do elevate it to another level each time you experiment.
One thing to maybe consider with your increased voltage input is that I have experienced the same with the Chord Quest in that the voltage can be altered to suit any preamp and the effects are similar to how you descibed going form 9 - 9.5v so it maybe you just gave your system some more oomph here.
No doubt the LPSU, SSD and USB interface all add to the uplift in SQ.
Excellent, by the time you have finished you will have perfected a configuration that will compete against much more expensive digital systems?
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Post by firebottle on Jul 1, 2020 13:12:28 GMT
Very diplomatic there Alan. Would us with normal hearing be able to spot these differences? Yes you would given the supporting equipment. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 1, 2020 13:13:06 GMT
Very diplomatic there Alan. Would us with normal hearing be able to spot these differences? Why hasn't Leo made these changes already to the Pecan? The Topping, now sounding flat and 2 dimensional, I have my doubts. If the Pecan is this good my brother will be part ex'ing his dCS. I have to impress the notion that the Topping D90 becoming more "2D and Flattening off the soundstage" is in comparison with the PecanPi, which did that aspect far better. I'm not saying the D90 is flat and 2D, just that it was less 3D than the PP. Hope thats clears up what i was saying. As for your doubts, yes...i totally expect that reaction to what i have said. But what I heard is exactly what I have said here. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 1, 2020 13:19:11 GMT
His observation does not make sense to me, this is because the 9V is not used for anything directly. It is regulated down to other voltages. This is why I do no understand why 9.5V sounded better. Maybe this is a psychoacoustic effect.
I meant you had, sort of, answered it in that it should make little to no difference.....
Ok, so to expand on this a little: When I received my LPSU, I had to personally adjust the voltage to 9v, which I did. Prior to adjusting the voltage to 9.5v, I measured how much voltage was actually getting to the PecanPi. At the LPSU itself, it was 9v on the PCB..at the PecanPi it was 8.6v, so somewhere along the way, there was a significant voltage drop. So in truth, I actually raised the Voltage from 8.6v to 9.5v, so possibly the PecanPi was slightly underpowered before and now giving it the right amount of juice has brought it in. I had forgotten this until it was questioned. I will add that to my original post. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 1, 2020 13:22:04 GMT
Very diplomatic there Alan. Would us with normal hearing be able to spot these differences? Why hasn't Leo made these changes already to the Pecan? The Topping, now sounding flat and 2 dimensional, I have my doubts. If the Pecan is this good my brother will be part ex'ing his dCS. I'd be more concerned about whether you couldn't hear the difference in all honesty, because if you couldn't, you'd need to re-evaluate your supporting Kit. I did this comparison with stuff built in bloody biscuit tins man!! 😆 It was so clear and obvious that VAR would have overuled the ref...no problem |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 1, 2020 13:23:05 GMT
I am really surprised that going to 9.5V made a difference. This is because the 9V supply is not directly used by anything on the DAC. All power supplies are derived from it. Do not go any higher that 9.5V. Understood |
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Post by stevew on Jul 1, 2020 14:25:50 GMT
Well it got me interested
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 1, 2020 16:07:27 GMT
Load and no load voltage...
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Post by macca on Jul 1, 2020 17:09:06 GMT
Very diplomatic there Alan. Would us with normal hearing be able to spot these differences? Why hasn't Leo made these changes already to the Pecan? The Topping, now sounding flat and 2 dimensional, I have my doubts. If the Pecan is this good my brother will be part ex'ing his dCS. I have to impress the notion that the Topping D90 becoming more "2D and Flattening off the soundstage" is in comparison with the PecanPi, which did that aspect far better. I'm not saying the D90 is flat and 2D, just that it was less 3D than the PP. Hope thats clears up what i was saying. As for your doubts, yes...i totally expect that reaction to what i have said. But what I heard is exactly what I have said here. '2 D and Flattening' would also be the perception if the volume was lower when the D90 was in. Just a couple of dB would account for that difference. How confident are you that the levels were exactly the same in the comparison with the D90 and between the lower and higher voltage settings on the Pecan? I'm asking because I'd be hesitant to draw any technical conclusions based on a casual listening comparison. At best it would only indicate that there might be something worth looking into further. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 1, 2020 17:30:25 GMT
I have to impress the notion that the Topping D90 becoming more "2D and Flattening off the soundstage" is in comparison with the PecanPi, which did that aspect far better. I'm not saying the D90 is flat and 2D, just that it was less 3D than the PP. Hope thats clears up what i was saying. As for your doubts, yes...i totally expect that reaction to what i have said. But what I heard is exactly what I have said here. '2 D and Flattening' would also be the perception if the volume was lower when the D90 was in. Just a couple of dB would account for that difference. How confident are you that the levels were exactly the same in the comparison with the D90 and between the lower and higher voltage settings on the Pecan? I'm asking because I'd be hesitant to draw any technical conclusions based on a casual listening comparison. At best it would only indicate that there might be something worth looking into further. Well, as always we can find an "excuse" for anything we hear or anything thats reported that makes us a little uncomfortable or farfetched. I dont believe one was louder than the other but as always, we have to conceed to not getting ultra anal about spl levels. |
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Jul 1, 2020 17:39:23 GMT
The 9 to 9.5V change would not have affected volume.
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Post by macca on Jul 2, 2020 7:22:45 GMT
The 9 to 9.5V change would not have affected volume. obviously not. My point was that you can't draw a conclusion about whether the change in voltage made a difference to the sound without a far more controlled listening test. If I change something and something happens that shouldn't really happen then I check and check again, I don't just assume I've made a scientific breakthrough and it's trebles all round. But, that's not for everyone. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 2, 2020 7:34:53 GMT
The 9 to 9.5V change would not have affected volume. obviously not. My point was that you can't draw a conclusion about whether the change in voltage made a difference to the sound without a far more controlled listening test. If I change something and something happens that shouldn't really happen then I check and check again, I don't just assume I've made a scientific breakthrough and it's trebles all round. But, that's not for everyone. The move from 8.6v to 9.5v was done in a far more controlled environment. It wasn't done at the same time as the d90 comparison. The volume control did not move whilst I was increasing the voltage, only the power amp was off. Whatever happened there I felt it made a positive change but there is no scientific way to prove that here. orchardaudio, could measure performance at 8.6v on the board, and then do it again at 9.5v and see what the numbers say, then we'd known if I am imagining it or whether there is something in it. Im happy to accept that it could be my imagination on that one. |
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Post by macca on Jul 2, 2020 9:17:00 GMT
Well that's what I was asking in my other post. Was the Topping/Pecan comparison made at the same relative level for both? It really does matter a lot!
I'd at least use a phone dB app for these things. It isn't optimal but it gets you in the ballpark. Bear in mind the higher the quality of the replay, the less 'loud' it will be perceived as sounding, as perception of loudness is a function of audible distortion. So it's not something that you can trust your ears with.
Although having said that I was at a pre-amp bake off once where levels were set using a fancy calibrated mic/level meter unit. The pre-amps were changed over, the level was measured and pronounce the same and the comparison began. Everyone immediately said 'That's louder!'. We measured again and the setting on the dB meter was wrong and it was indeed louder. But subtler differences in levels are not easy to spot like that.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 3, 2020 6:25:46 GMT
Well that's what I was asking in my other post. Was the Topping/Pecan comparison made at the same relative level for both? It really does matter a lot! I'd at least use a phone dB app for these things. It isn't optimal but it gets you in the ballpark. Bear in mind the higher the quality of the replay, the less 'loud' it will be perceived as sounding, as perception of loudness is a function of audible distortion. So it's not something that you can trust your ears with. Although having said that I was at a pre-amp bake off once where levels were set using a fancy calibrated mic/level meter unit. The pre-amps were changed over, the level was measured and pronounce the same and the comparison began. Everyone immediately said 'That's louder!'. We measured again and the setting on the dB meter was wrong and it was indeed louder. But subtler differences in levels are not easy to spot like that. I did not change the Preamp level at any point but obviously, there may have been a variance in level as I didn't measure for it. However, I am always very careful to pay attention to level changes but I accept the point. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2020 9:26:01 GMT
Oli
May I suggest using an SPL meter to keep those sound levels when evaluation on an even footing.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 3, 2020 9:48:01 GMT
Oli May I suggest using an SPL meter to keep those sound levels when evaluation on an even footing. You may suggest it...yes. lol |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 8, 2020 6:56:25 GMT
Been a bit quiet of late, mainly due to returning to work and all the trappings of readjusting to civilian life. However, I have made time to build some new speaker cables....yes, new! I haven't named them as of yet as I didn't want to get attached to them Anyway, I haven't ventured far from my belief of what makes a good cable so they have pretty much been as I expected them to be. Listening has been very enjoyable. Seems to have unlocked a little more height in the soundstage Vs my Spotfire reference cables, but lost a wee bit of the texture and layering. I have only had them in the system for three days and I am hoping that once I have had them in place for a while they will flesh out a little. Vinyl returned yesterday too. Having not seen my phonostage for three weeks I had forgotten what it sounds like, especially as I have been trying to make a MK2 version of the Spotfire interconnect cable. The MK2 is currently using a different RCA plug. KLE Classic Harmony plugs are getting harder to find and the price of the modern version, the Copper Harmony, have been creeping up in price. I decided to try a new plug... the 1877 OCC RCA plug. I experimented over 10 days with well worn Spotfire cable, AECO, KLE, MSAudio & MPS RCA plugs. With the 1877 plug, I felt the sound was cleaner, more insightful and kind of had that effect of removing a film from the sound, however there has been a marked lift in audible bass which is causing me issues. I cant measure this change but I am 100% convinced of it happening. So much so that I invited firebottle to provide a second set of ears. The results of how the cables ranked with the various plugs were unanimous without prompting and the marked lift in bass acknowledged independently without conversation on the matter. I didn't influence Alans thoughts with suggestion, is what I am saying. I wasn't massively keen on the bass issue I now had and whilst mulling it over, I thought back to when there were no plugs on the system and I had everything wired up direcly and soldered in place, that the Bass issues had been eradicated. I had removed the brass contacts in that chain and things improved. This was only confirmed when I swapped to pure copper RCA sockets in the chain and the problem was gone for good. I then got to suspecting that this OCC plug may be using Brass for the return contact. after cutting the cable clamp off and filing down what was under the gold plating, it was quite obvious that this was the case. OCC copper centre pin....Brass return. Bollocks. The clarity and film free presentation of these plugs mean I would rather keep them than go back to the KLE or the AECO but the bass is killing the sound. The new speaker cables have provided a better balance but that means I am tuning the system with cables, which shouldn't be the case. Neotech claim to make a fully OCC RCA plug (£200 per set) but upon asking them and other dealers, they appear to be non committal over what material is actually used for the return or in this case the plugs body. Obviously the centre pin is OCC and if the return is copper, that's a step closer to where I want to be, but £200 is a big gamble as I would have to file some plating off to find out. It has been suggested that I try Silver...however I would want OCC silver and that doesn't seem to be very popular for plugs, as it's softer than copper. The search continues for now but it looks increasingly likely that the Neotech RCA plugs will have to be tried.     |
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Post by firebottle on Jul 8, 2020 8:11:49 GMT
Brass return. Bollocks.  Sounds interesting with the new speaker cable  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 8, 2020 8:36:49 GMT
Brass return. Bollocks. Sounds interesting with the new speaker cable Yes its good stuff, the speaker cable. Different presentation but certainly very good. Brass is bollocks. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 12, 2020 8:11:36 GMT
Its here and ready to go into the Neurochrome 686 Ill be taking this to see Angus in the next couple of weeks and get it all fitted in nicely. The SMPS will be removed and a couple of CMC pure copper RCA connectors will take the place of those crap Neutrik XLRs Nichicon Gold Tune Capacitors are going in with it. Spotfire wire will be replacing the stock stuff too, so needless to say this Neurochrome 686 will be as good as it can be! I am genuinely excited to see if anything changes  |
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Post by rexton on Jul 12, 2020 9:24:48 GMT
Silver or copper leads coming from the Tx?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 12, 2020 14:29:57 GMT
Silver or copper leads coming from the Tx? Not sure? I didn't look...I'll let you know |
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Post by rexton on Jul 12, 2020 15:06:59 GMT
Errr... you can see the darn things in your picture!!
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Would us with normal hearing be able to spot these differences? Why hasn't Leo made these changes already to the Pecan? The Topping, now sounding flat and 2 dimensional, I have my doubts. If the Pecan is this good my brother will be part ex'ing his dCS. 
