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Post by misterc on Nov 5, 2022 11:12:23 GMT
it's aimed at a much higher priced equipment that really should be labelled as defective. |
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Post by savvypaul on Nov 5, 2022 11:13:53 GMT
Hmm. Interesting, and intense, discussion. Some experienced designers here seeking technical and musical perfection, so it seems to me. One thinking they are the same, another disagreeing. As a long term non-technical user / customer my own viewpoint tends to the musical. I can understand the need for technical excellence in aviation engineering, but don't necessarily see it for audio. I do a lot of changes (boxswapper!) and I've used a lot of gear, and I know that my path and journey is very definitely not one of incremental improvement. That doesn't interest me at all. I've learned (rightly or wrongly) that there are many paths up our audio mountain. Different paths give you different views and experiences. None are right or wrong. None get you to the top. They can't. ... To borrow the sports analogy, no-one will ever run a zero second 100m. There will always be room for change or improvement. And maybe you'll decide you want to change to hurdles, or the marathon and get a new experience. I'd rather have a different viewpoint than squeeze an extra 2% out of the current performance. To me, different really can be more enjoyable than better.
Whilst I agree that the journey to personal nirvana is very much down to the individual, I don't agree with the aforementioned and challenged views expressed by other in this exchange.
If you are going to do something, why not do it to the best of your ability? Rather than chucking something together, thinking "that's good enough" and taking peoples hard earned money from their wallets.
BTW, none of this is aimed at Paul's outfit, it's aimed at a much higher priced equipment that really should be labelled as defective. Broken is broken (regardless of price), but a stage that varies very minimally from RIAA isn't broken. Nor does it mean that it has been chucked together, thinking 'that's good enough' (again, regardless of price). What I'm reading from your postings is that you think that ANY deviation from RIAA is always problematic. I disagree with that premise. What about tube ageing? That will have some effect on RIAA filters. Nothing is perfect. I think your example of the broken stage is a red herring. Such a massive variation (along with all the other issues) would be obviously audible. If some people like that, such is life. Personal taste is just that and there will always be people who express opinions online that make you think 'that's bollocks!'. |
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Post by misterc on Nov 5, 2022 11:15:34 GMT
Nov 5, 2022 9:52:42 GMT Bigman80 said:
it's aimed at a much higher priced equipment that really should be labelled as defective.
This has been the case through the last 50 years or so with MANY higher priced items not just audio, you have to look where high end is going right now (this gos back to a point I have been making for the last three years, more further down the page) The well kown faces of big ticket items are constantly trying to reinvent the wheel as the majority of the consumers of these products 'need' to consume 'new' variants or the latest uber laser carved fancy 48mm aerospace aluminium grade tactile case work, with a remote control that can command a fleet of drones to perform the dance of the seven veils for you personally in miniature while making your evening meal. Though the use of industrial grade support systems to keep the multiple oil rig tonnage boxes in perpetuity is a pre requisite as a matter of course. Some of the 'most desirable' piece of equipment may not be the most robust, reliable or indeed world class sounding devices Wait really? shock horror Take Alfa Romeo's, absolutely wonderful drivers cars are pleasure to thrash senseless, however like Italian women they are fickle, unforgiving, ruthlessly uncompromising, fragile and dare I mention stubborn Alfa's are not a low grade ownership prospect, more time, care, attention and funds are required to keep one in peak condition, HOWEVER that doesn't stop the 1000's of owners from doing so. Real high-end audio (98% of the cases I genuinely feel) has absolutely nothing to do with sound quality what so ever, this is purely about status symbolism and keeping up with the Smyth’s. All be it on a grander scale that the usual free mason middle England professional Salisbury appreciator. Musical lovers that are seeking to improve their own SQ go about things in a different manner and in a quite a few cases can improve on many 50-80K shop purchased systems for around a quarter of the outlay. This is also a British mentality which I quite admire and also embrace. So the cost of items which are considered a luxury or more desirable has really come into focus sharply in the last nine months or so due to the various factors happening on the world stage. The bottom line is finance or the lack of it from many sides, the cost of living in real terms has risen at a quite alarming rate so every penny counts it really does. With some people choosing to either heat or eat, while certain sectors of the population continue to accumulate wealth at a rapid pace. Which has always been the nature of the beast, it just really been brought into focus more recently due to the circumstances like the Ukrainian conflict, covid aftermath, Russian situation plus the balls up the Tory’s have made here. I digress, over the last three decades (honest I’m only 56 Guv!) or so I have seen/owned/worked on and listened to a great number of audio products/brands that many would consider the pinnacle of reproduction a great many have let me stone cold. Yes a number of those have been due to their presentational aspects for sure, however the majority the remainder has simply been ‘And?’ I would venture a fare few have been seriously overpriced, greatly under performing and quite frankly average at best. Yet many of these are elevated to almost a God like status by many of the old skool magazines scribes and easily led ‘sheep’ who continue to crow about them for eternity. This don’t wash with me one iota, if you are paying good money for quality goods it should deliver what it promises, have a build quality that will last at least a decade before require any attention, ease of functionality and keep you entertained 100% and produce pride of ownership. These products are aimed at a specific market to which they will be consumed, hence why ‘High end’ exists just like ANY luxury product arena. People will only pay what they are comfortable to so or the desire instilled after experiencing the product, fact or life always has been and always will be. Here is side note which is relevant to this conversation; as most of you are aware we are not just audio electronic engineers we also design and construct (here in the UK) many other electronic devices for a wide range of applications. Recently we were working on a home automation device for controlling various parts of the domestic lighting system. More a modular section for dimmer switching of low powered bulbs (LED primary) in the end it boiled down to three factors, board size, component count and COST. Two methodologies in the running either a pair of complimentary transistors driving the output or a single IGBT (insulated-gate bipolar transistor) & bridge rectifier.
Board space was very close, heat dissipation due to conduction losses (greater power consumption as well) were far greater on the IGBT variant compared to the dual FET method so a win/win for the FET’s however the cost to implement the FET option was an extra £4.85 in cost per module. Despite the extra use of electricity in doing so the IGBT model was chosen. Its about making 100’s of 1000’s of these devices for buttons it always has been raw material V’s sheer amount of retail potential. High end is the opposite, small scale production, higher profit margin per item. Therefore these manufacturers have to design in features which will be incredibly desirable for crazy rich Asians, Americans crass cash, and snobby European wealthy folk. That is their target market.
To finish up, back to the Chinese financial war machine that’s been churning away for the last 25 years or so. Alibaba/Ebay/Amazon may be great for cases/circuit board, pre amps/dacs and some of the pieces you can obtain are quite frankly too good to turn down. But there is a reason for this? No one in Europe can produce these good at those levels for that cost ask Paul even in Poland they cannot match the Chinese’s massive manufacturing output capability.
So by saturating the market gradually over the years the reliance on cheap far east imports will be dominant and when the Chinese turn around and say sorry that’s all over now you have to pay ‘X’ & ‘Y’ the bottom will fall out of that market and the majority of the world will be held to ransom, simply because home grown production of these types of goods will be none existent.
We produce goods here in the UK and so far source 86% of the components (Audio & Power Supplies) with non Chinese components. I have said this a few times, some of the liner psu’s on Alibaba cost less than what it costs us to wind our own transformers here so that puts the whole mass production into perspective. We cannot compete (along with a great many other manufacturers here in the UK) however we are proud to say we are designed/machined and hand assembled here in the UK. Just my thoughts on this. |
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Post by pete on Nov 5, 2022 12:53:18 GMT
Some very good points here misterc, and easily forgotten and overlooked, especially the cheap far eastern imports, which I have been tempted by. |
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Post by sq225917 on Nov 5, 2022 16:05:09 GMT
It's a global market as China prices increase production will shift to other places.
TSMC and already setting up in Texas vs Taiwan, party for costs, partly to get lucrative US chip contracts as the US Gov cut China out of the tech loop.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 5, 2022 21:52:48 GMT
Well, moving on..... Firstly, Landed upon a very nice potential deal for this:  As is abundantly clear, I like Ortofon cartridges, and this one has been on the want list for a while. Really looking forward to having a listen to it. One of those carts that has all the right parts in all the right places. Secondly, The SMPS removal in the Aqvox has been a big success. I am much more engaged in the music and it's starting to hit some peaks in performance. The biggest, and most important part about this change, is that prior to the change and the SMPS being in use, there was an invasive electronic sputtering, almost glitchy sound coming through the speakers at about 50% onwards on the volume dial. Since the change to the LPSU, that noise is completely absent. This is a major win and has now spurred me on to fit a permanent supply in there. Sonic benefits and noise benefits...can't argue with that. For anyone interested, this DAC is a bit of a killer....I really like it. Listening to electronic music seems to be it's forte. There are a couple for sale around £200-300 on the continent, and I think they could do a really good job for someone if they wanted to swap the SMPS out. It's not a great deal of work, or cost to do, so if you need a DAC, it's worth a bit of consideration.  Before anyone asks, yes, I can just plug the SMPS back in at a moment notice and that electronic Sh#t in the background comes back with it. It's also been really handy to do some sound quality comparisons. |
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Post by pete on Nov 5, 2022 22:05:45 GMT
Sounds like it could be an interesting proposition!!
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 5, 2022 22:08:08 GMT
Well, moving on..... Firstly, Landed upon a very nice potential deal for this : As is abundantly clear, I like Ortofon cartridges, and this one has been on the want list for a while. Really looking forward to having a listen to it. One of those carts that has all the right parts in all the right places. Secondly, The SMPS removal in the Aqvox has been a big success. I am much more engaged in the music and it's starting to hit some peaks in performance. The biggest, and most important part about this change, is that prior to the change and the SMPS being in use, there was an invasive electronic sputtering, almost glitchy sound coming through the speakers at about 50% onwards on the volume dial. Since the change to the LPSU, that noise is completely absent. This is a major win and has now spurred me on to fit a permanent supply in there. Sonic benefits and noise benefits...can't argue with that. For anyone interested, this DAC is a bit of a killer....I really like it. Listening to electronic music seems to be it's forte. There are a couple for sale around £200-300 on the continent, and I think they could do a really good job for someone if they wanted to swap the SMPS out. It's not a great deal of work, or cost to do, so if you need a DAC, it's worth a bit of consideration. Before anyone asks, yes, I can just plug the SMPS back in at a moment notice and that electronic Sh#t in the background comes back with it. It's also been really handy to do some sound quality comparisons. Nice one Olster, has a great reputation that one. Wanted one badly myself, some years back. Shibata stylus, it was 'replaced' by the Shibata'd Black in the Cadenza line. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 5, 2022 22:11:50 GMT
Well, moving on..... Firstly, Landed upon a very nice potential deal for this : As is abundantly clear, I like Ortofon cartridges, and this one has been on the want list for a while. Really looking forward to having a listen to it. One of those carts that has all the right parts in all the right places. Secondly, The SMPS removal in the Aqvox has been a big success. I am much more engaged in the music and it's starting to hit some peaks in performance. The biggest, and most important part about this change, is that prior to the change and the SMPS being in use, there was an invasive electronic sputtering, almost glitchy sound coming through the speakers at about 50% onwards on the volume dial. Since the change to the LPSU, that noise is completely absent. This is a major win and has now spurred me on to fit a permanent supply in there. Sonic benefits and noise benefits...can't argue with that. For anyone interested, this DAC is a bit of a killer....I really like it. Listening to electronic music seems to be it's forte. There are a couple for sale around £200-300 on the continent, and I think they could do a really good job for someone if they wanted to swap the SMPS out. It's not a great deal of work, or cost to do, so if you need a DAC, it's worth a bit of consideration. Before anyone asks, yes, I can just plug the SMPS back in at a moment notice and that electronic Sh#t in the background comes back with it. It's also been really handy to do some sound quality comparisons. Nice one Olster, has a great reputation that one. Wanted one badly myself, some years back. Shibata stylus, it was 'replaced' by the Shibata'd Black in the Cadenza line. That's where I expect it to kind of sit in the range tbh. I'm not expecting Winny levels from it, but a Caddy Black is no slouch. The Jubilee is a prime candidate for a retip at some point and a Boron cart with FGS would be very interesting. I'm not one to keep spare gear around, but I have noticed that the older Ortofons like the Jubilee, Kontrapunkt etc are no longer really popping up for sale as often. I may have to stock up! |
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 5, 2022 22:39:05 GMT
Nice one Olster, has a great reputation that one. Wanted one badly myself, some years back. Shibata stylus, it was 'replaced' by the Shibata'd Black in the Cadenza line. That's where I expect it to kind of sit in the range tbh. I'm not expecting Winny levels from it, but a Caddy Black is no slouch. The Jubilee is a prime candidate for a retip at some point and a Boron cart with FGS would be very interesting. I'm not one to keep spare gear around, but I have noticed that the older Ortofons like the Jubilee, Kontrapunkt etc are no longer really popping up for sale as often. I may have to stock up! Spot on on all counts there Olster, they are very much the same, the Cadenza Black as you say is no slouch, a lovely cart, end game for some, whilst a bit pricey in my view. Detailed, smooth, even, very nice cart. Re-tipping it, come the time, with the FGS, is a no-brainer and wow! I could happily live with it forever, turns a great cart into an excellent one, the FGS tip is thinner longer, so digs right down inside the groove and the large contact area means tons of info pulled. I will look for the exact re-tip again, whenever mine is due. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 5, 2022 22:42:57 GMT
That's where I expect it to kind of sit in the range tbh. I'm not expecting Winny levels from it, but a Caddy Black is no slouch. The Jubilee is a prime candidate for a retip at some point and a Boron cart with FGS would be very interesting. I'm not one to keep spare gear around, but I have noticed that the older Ortofons like the Jubilee, Kontrapunkt etc are no longer really popping up for sale as often. I may have to stock up! Spot on on all counts there Olster, they are very much the same, the Cadenza Black as you say is no slouch, a lovely cart, end game for some, whilst a bit pricey in my view. Detailed, smooth, even, very nice cart. Re-tipping it, come the time, with the FGS, is a no-brainer and wow! I could happily live with it forever, turns a great cart into an excellent one, the FGS tip is thinner longer, so digs right down inside the groove and the large contact area means tons of info pulled. I will look for the exact re-tip again, whenever mine is due. Yeah, spot on Rob. I will move for either a Winny, A90 or A95 when the time is right, but for now I will see what the Jubilee has to offer. It's on approval, so it'll cost me nothing to find out, so why not! |
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Post by lurch on Nov 6, 2022 8:37:43 GMT
I believe Northwest Audio offer FGS/FG2 as a retip option. Not sure about Goldring but it's worth an ask.
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Post by macca on Nov 6, 2022 8:48:16 GMT
The SMPS removal in the Aqvox has been a big success. I am much more engaged in the music and it's starting to hit some peaks in performance. The biggest, and most important part about this change, is that prior to the change and the SMPS being in use, there was an invasive electronic sputtering, almost glitchy sound coming through the speakers at about 50% onwards on the volume dial. Since the change to the LPSU, that noise is completely absent. This is a major win and has now spurred me on to fit a permanent supply in there. Sonic benefits and noise benefits...can't argue with that. sounds like it was faulty then? Don't really get this SMPS thing. So many DACs use them but have effectively zero noise or distortion. If they are doing something bad then it must be outside the scope of the usual measurements. I just use a mobile phone charger to power my DAC, I don't hear anything obviously bad. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 6, 2022 9:04:18 GMT
The SMPS removal in the Aqvox has been a big success. I am much more engaged in the music and it's starting to hit some peaks in performance. The biggest, and most important part about this change, is that prior to the change and the SMPS being in use, there was an invasive electronic sputtering, almost glitchy sound coming through the speakers at about 50% onwards on the volume dial. Since the change to the LPSU, that noise is completely absent. This is a major win and has now spurred me on to fit a permanent supply in there. Sonic benefits and noise benefits...can't argue with that. sounds like it was faulty then? Don't really get this SMPS thing. So many DACs use them but have effectively zero noise or distortion. If they are doing something bad then it must be outside the scope of the usual measurements. I just use a mobile phone charger to power my DAC, I don't hear anything obviously bad. No, it's not faulty as far as I'm concerned. Voltages are all correct and nothing is out of place, it's just a Sh#t one I suspect. |
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Post by gninnam on Nov 6, 2022 10:16:25 GMT
I believe Northwest Audio offer FGS/FG2 as a retip option. Not sure about Goldring but it's worth an ask. Re-tipped my DL103M with the FGS and sounds awesome (to my ears)  |
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Nov 6, 2022 12:11:48 GMT
I believe Northwest Audio offer FGS/FG2 as a retip option. Not sure about Goldring but it's worth an ask. Do you have a link for Northwest Audio John? When I google it I get Northwest Audio Show and Northwest Analogue. |
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Nov 6, 2022 12:13:18 GMT
I believe Northwest Audio offer FGS/FG2 as a retip option. Not sure about Goldring but it's worth an ask. Do you have a link for Northwest Audio John? When I google it I get Northwest Audio Show and Northwest Analogue. I'm curious about cost difference between FGS retip on a 2M Black vs. replacement stylus. |
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Post by karma67 on Nov 6, 2022 12:18:46 GMT
Do you have a link for Northwest Audio John? When I google it I get Northwest Audio Show and Northwest Analogue. I'm curious about cost difference between FGS retip on a 2M Black vs. replacement stylus. this is the one you want matey
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 6, 2022 12:40:39 GMT
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Post by firebottle on Nov 6, 2022 13:15:16 GMT
sounds like it was faulty then? Don't really get this SMPS thing. So many DACs use them but have effectively zero noise or distortion. If they are doing something bad then it must be outside the scope of the usual measurements. I just use a mobile phone charger to power my DAC, I don't hear anything obviously bad. No, it's not faulty as far as I'm concerned. Voltages are all correct and nothing is out of place, it's just a Sh#t one I suspect. It's not noise or distortion per se, it's clarity, try finding a measurement for that. The overall noise might be low in terms of hearing sensitivity but any SMPS raises the noise floor and effectively smears the low level info. How isn't really important or needs to be explained, the lower the ultimate noise washing about the pcb the better. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 6, 2022 13:30:51 GMT
No, it's not faulty as far as I'm concerned. Voltages are all correct and nothing is out of place, it's just a Sh#t one I suspect. It's not noise or distortion per se, it's clarity, try finding a measurement for that. The overall noise might be low in terms of hearing sensitivity but any SMPS raises the noise floor and effectively smears the low level info. How isn't really important or needs to be explained, the lower the ultimate noise washing about the pcb the better. Macca is talking about that spurious electronic noise I reported. |
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Post by macca on Nov 6, 2022 13:44:43 GMT
No, it's not faulty as far as I'm concerned. Voltages are all correct and nothing is out of place, it's just a Sh#t one I suspect. It's not noise or distortion per se, it's clarity, try finding a measurement for that. The overall noise might be low in terms of hearing sensitivity but any SMPS raises the noise floor and effectively smears the low level info. How isn't really important or needs to be explained, the lower the ultimate noise washing about the pcb the better. 'Clarity' is a lack of noise and distortion, surely? What else is there in an electrical signal? You can see from the many DACs that have been measured by various reviewers that they have noise levels 120dB or more below signal despite using SMPS. Chord and Topping for example but there are many others. Plus linear supplies can be noisier. Isn't this more a case of poor design rather than Linear-good and SMPS- bad? How SMPS intrinsically ruins the sound very much needs to be explained, or better yet, demonstrated. |
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Post by macca on Nov 6, 2022 13:45:46 GMT
It's not noise or distortion per se, it's clarity, try finding a measurement for that. The overall noise might be low in terms of hearing sensitivity but any SMPS raises the noise floor and effectively smears the low level info. How isn't really important or needs to be explained, the lower the ultimate noise washing about the pcb the better. Macca is talking about that spurious electronic noise I reported. yes I was, seems to me that can only be either a fault or just inherently crap implementation. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 6, 2022 14:53:25 GMT
Macca is talking about that spurious electronic noise I reported. yes I was, seems to me that can only be either a fault or just inherently crap implementation. Well, it's not the only SMPS powered device I have heard to do that, but it isn't common. The thing with SMPS is that even though they are usually highly efficient and universal in input voltage, they do seem to sound different to LPSU. I understand that guys like Tom Christiansen and Bruno don't think it makes any difference, and I respect their opinion, but we have repeatedly taken them out, replaced them with LPSU, and got a different sound from the gear. |
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Post by macca on Nov 6, 2022 15:18:50 GMT
well from casual reading of testing of amps and DACs it does seem to me that those that are noisy are noisy mostly due to leakage from the power supply - regardless of whether that is a SMPS or linear.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 6, 2022 16:15:48 GMT
well from casual reading of testing of amps and DACs it does seem to me that those that are noisy are noisy mostly due to leakage from the power supply - regardless of whether that is a SMPS or linear. That's true, and this is definitely leakage. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 9, 2022 12:45:24 GMT
Goodies have arrived  |
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Post by bencat on Nov 9, 2022 15:09:35 GMT
There will be good and bad PSU of both types . The main issue with SMPS is that you need to work very hard and have real design skills to make a really good one . This almost always means expensive which is often the opposite reason that an SMPS is used . LPSU are better understood and so can often be made to a better levels and less (or more) money .
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Post by macca on Nov 9, 2022 19:12:08 GMT
There will be good and bad PSU of both types . The main issue with SMPS is that you need to work very hard and have real design skills to make a really good one . This almost always means expensive which is often the opposite reason that an SMPS is used . LPSU are better understood and so can often be made to a better levels and less (or more) money . I don't know about that, I run a Topping E30 DAC off an old mobile phone charger. Not difficult to design, or expensive. Probably the cheapest piece of crap SMPS there is. Accordingly it should sound absolutely terrible but it sounds excellent. No different from the much more expensive Soncoz that has two linear supplies. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 9, 2022 19:14:24 GMT
There will be good and bad PSU of both types . The main issue with SMPS is that you need to work very hard and have real design skills to make a really good one . This almost always means expensive which is often the opposite reason that an SMPS is used . LPSU are better understood and so can often be made to a better levels and less (or more) money . I don't know about that, I run a Topping E30 DAC off an old mobile phone charger. Not difficult to design, or expensive. Probably the cheapest piece of crap SMPS there is. Accordingly it should sound absolutely terrible but it sounds excellent. No different from the much more expensive Soncoz that has two linear supplies. Tried it with a LPSU? |
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