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Post by stevew on Nov 4, 2022 7:45:46 GMT
Oops …posting cross over..
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Nov 4, 2022 7:50:13 GMT
It does sound refined. It's a good system. Again....I didn't say my DAC is fatiguing. I just wondered if the the fatigue that *people* report was due to the possibility of that nugget about the brain having to reconstruct some of the music as a result of a filter. It was hypothetical. I regret taking over this forum 😂 You know I do get what you're saying, and usually this kind of stuff goes right over my head. Advances made all the time to make things perform better, but knowledge of how the brain actually processes what it sees and hears, still a bit of a mystery. |
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Post by stevew on Nov 4, 2022 7:57:16 GMT
Many moons ago (Christ, it was 1978/79) I went out with a girl who was doing a psychology degree at Reading university. We spent ages talking about the project she needed to develop for her final year thesis. These days I have to rely on my phones autospell let alone understand psychology.
It did make me think about how you might study the effects of different filters on the listening experience. But then it made my brain hurt, so went and made another cup of tea.
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Post by antonio on Nov 4, 2022 8:16:20 GMT
last visitor to me was a valves/vinyl/horn speakers man. His verdict? 'It sounds so refined!' As you can imagine I was crushed. recommendations to bring back the hardness and harshness? Budget is unlimited. Simple, buy Oli's Aqvox and your sorted for a few 'moaning' posts.  |
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Post by electronumpty on Nov 4, 2022 8:20:23 GMT
I think Oli's right about the brain filling in aspect of listening. After all, I keep getting told by the Mrs that I have selective hearing, so it must be true! 🤣🤣
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2022 8:46:47 GMT
I have never heard my Mrs tell me I have selective hearing.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Nov 4, 2022 8:51:11 GMT
Many moons ago (Christ, it was 1978/79) I went out with a girl who was doing a psychology degree at Reading university. We spent ages talking about the project she needed to develop for her final year thesis. These days I have to rely on my phones autospell let alone understand psychology. It did make me think about how you might study the effects of different filters on the listening experience. But then it made my brain hurt, so went and made another cup of tea. The things we'd put ourselves through in order to get some nookie. |
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Post by stevew on Nov 4, 2022 8:52:09 GMT
Many moons ago (Christ, it was 1978/79) I went out with a girl who was doing a psychology degree at Reading university. We spent ages talking about the project she needed to develop for her final year thesis. These days I have to rely on my phones autospell let alone understand psychology. It did make me think about how you might study the effects of different filters on the listening experience. But then it made my brain hurt, so went and made another cup of tea. The things we'd put ourselves through in order to get some nookie. I wish that wasn’t true.. |
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 4, 2022 9:27:08 GMT
It's so disappointing. I wish I had a digital system like Oli's. Try as I might, I just can't get mine to sound fatiguing.  I've been listening to mine all day and still enjoying it. Dang, I'm doing something wrong obviously. I didn't say my digital was fatiguing!!! Good grief....I'm taking the day off 😂 Haha! I hope you enjoyed your day off, you deserve it. I think I was just reacting to the resurgence of the AAVWF*. *[AudioAddicts Vinyl W#nkFest] Digital is fatiguing, only sensitive people can appreciate vinyl, digital filters don't work properly, such a relief to get back to vinyl, clicks and pops are just fine and not having them is kind of offputting (that was a great one and new to me) ... yada yada. Thankfully it didn't sink to the depths of hearing the gaps between the digital samples....  Actually, imo & ime digital can be amazing and fully musically satisfying.  If you enjoy your vinyl that's great, I'm genuinely happy for you. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 4, 2022 10:00:41 GMT
I didn't say my digital was fatiguing!!! Good grief....I'm taking the day off 😂 Haha! I hope you enjoyed your day off, you deserve it. I think I was just reacting to the resurgence of the AAVWF*. *[AudioAddicts Vinyl W#nkFest] Digital is fatiguing, only sensitive people can appreciate vinyl, digital filters don't work properly, such a relief to get back to vinyl, clicks and pops are just fine and not having them is kind of offputting (that was a great one and new to me) ... yada yada. Thankfully it didn't sink to the depths of hearing the gaps between the digital samples.... Actually, imo & ime digital can be amazing and fully musically satisfying. If you enjoy your vinyl that's great, I'm genuinely happy for you. I don't disagree with the comment regarding how good digital can be, I also don't find it fatiguing, but I do prefer vinyl. |
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Post by antonio on Nov 4, 2022 11:32:05 GMT
@bigman80 Keep enjoying your vinyl, it's only us old buggers that no longer have the time (even though many are retired) or patience anymore.
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Post by optical on Nov 4, 2022 12:00:45 GMT
Haha! I hope you enjoyed your day off, you deserve it. I think I was just reacting to the resurgence of the AAVWF*. *[AudioAddicts Vinyl W#nkFest] Digital is fatiguing, only sensitive people can appreciate vinyl, digital filters don't work properly, such a relief to get back to vinyl, clicks and pops are just fine and not having them is kind of offputting (that was a great one and new to me) ... yada yada. Thankfully it didn't sink to the depths of hearing the gaps between the digital samples.... Actually, imo & ime digital can be amazing and fully musically satisfying. If you enjoy your vinyl that's great, I'm genuinely happy for you. I don't disagree with the comment regarding how good digital can be, I also don't find it fatiguing, but I do prefer vinyl. I agree, it's a preference, not a black and white either/or Like Jameson's to 18yr old Bowmore . . . Additionally, some recordings available only on vinyl/digital can trump the other for whatever reason, so I like to have the option at least. I do find the dynamics aren't presented quite as spectacularly with some digital compared to vinyl, but that may be due to the pieces of the puzzle . . . |
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 4, 2022 14:31:26 GMT
I suspect that there are a lot more variables with vinyl playback, and that allows a far greater degree of 'tailoring' or personalisation of the sound presentation to suit each individual.
This can be particularly the case with amplified or electronic music where there isn't an Abso!ute Sound to act as an original reference, and what sounds best is substantially subjective.
I recall a public dealer dem where various makes were demmed by the respective distributors.
The Naim dem sounded totally, jawdrop awesome on rock music, but fell totally to pieces on classical. It was actually genuinely amusing the way a concert grand piano sounded like an upright honkytonk.
But without a doubt I would have invested in the Naim system if my interests had been mainly rock/metal. Being "right" wasn't relevant or even meaningful, but b#gger me, it rocked.
I think that sort of personalisation is what a vinyl system is quite often made to do by means of the voicing of the various components.
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 4, 2022 15:02:00 GMT
I suspect that there are a lot more variables with vinyl playback, and that allows a far greater degree of 'tailoring' or personalisation of the sound presentation to suit each individual. This can be particularly the case with amplified or electronic music where there isn't an Abso!ute Sound to act as an original reference, and what sounds best is substantially subjective. I recall a public dealer dem where various makes were demmed by the respective distributors. The Naim dem sounded totally, jawdrop awesome on rock music, but fell totally to pieces on classical. It was actually genuinely amusing the way a concert grand piano sounded like an upright honkytonk. But without a doubt I would have invested in the Naim system if my interests had been mainly rock/metal. Being "right" wasn't relevant or even meaningful, but b#gger me, it rocked. I think that sort of personalisation is what a vinyl system is quite often made to do by means of the voicing of the various components. Vinyl is greatly tuneable because there is no ASR type judging for phonostages or carts. There has been no great emphasis placed on RIAA accuracy, channel matching/crosstalk or distortion, SNR...Which has allowed for the opinion of listeners to be the only judge. However, stick a very well made phonostage in, Use a world class TT and arm and you have a source thats only really tuneable via the cart. My vinyl is set up to be as faithful (as possible) and accurate (as possible) to the recording as possible, but i can't control the voicing of cartridges. I can only pick what i think does the most realistic job to my opinion..and what i can afford. That said, it's not entirely down to the voicing as to why i prefer vinyl. |
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 4, 2022 15:21:51 GMT
I suspect that there are a lot more variables with vinyl playback, and that allows a far greater degree of 'tailoring' or personalisation of the sound presentation to suit each individual. This can be particularly the case with amplified or electronic music where there isn't an Abso!ute Sound to act as an original reference, and what sounds best is substantially subjective. I recall a public dealer dem where various makes were demmed by the respective distributors. The Naim dem sounded totally, jawdrop awesome on rock music, but fell totally to pieces on classical. It was actually genuinely amusing the way a concert grand piano sounded like an upright honkytonk. But without a doubt I would have invested in the Naim system if my interests had been mainly rock/metal. Being "right" wasn't relevant or even meaningful, but b#gger me, it rocked. I think that sort of personalisation is what a vinyl system is quite often made to do by means of the voicing of the various components. Vinyl is greatly tuneable because there is no ASR type judging for phonostages or carts. There has been no great emphasis placed on RIAA accuracy, channel matching/crosstalk or distortion, SNR...Which has allowed for the opinion of listeners to be the only judge. However, stick a very well made phonostage in, Use a world class TT and arm and you have a source thats only really tuneable via the cart. My vinyl is set up to be as faithful (as possible) and accurate (as possible) to the recording as possible, but i can't control the voicing of cartridges. I can only pick what i think does the most realistic job to my opinion..and what i can afford. That said, it's not entirely down to the voicing as to why i prefer vinyl. Same - I decided on this 'faithful' approach a long time ago, as the 'foundation' to build my system on. Hence why I'm not drawn to kit that I perceive has an overt, get in the way type of character. I've found that the best kit I've ever enjoyed, regardless of even some level of the naturally inherited character, does not get in the way or hinder the music, allows the recorded music to be the star, show it's thing, and that's where the true enjoyment and thrill is in my experience |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 4, 2022 15:35:26 GMT
Vinyl is greatly tuneable because there is no ASR type judging for phonostages or carts. There has been no great emphasis placed on RIAA accuracy, channel matching/crosstalk or distortion, SNR...Which has allowed for the opinion of listeners to be the only judge. However, stick a very well made phonostage in, Use a world class TT and arm and you have a source thats only really tuneable via the cart. My vinyl is set up to be as faithful (as possible) and accurate (as possible) to the recording as possible, but i can't control the voicing of cartridges. I can only pick what i think does the most realistic job to my opinion..and what i can afford. That said, it's not entirely down to the voicing as to why i prefer vinyl. Same - I decided on this 'faithful' approach a long time ago, as the 'foundation' to build my system on. Hence why I'm not drawn to kit that I perceive has an overt, get in the way type of character. I've found that the best kit I've ever enjoyed, regardless of even some level of the naturally inherited character, does not get in the way or hinder the music, allows the recorded music to be the star, show it's thing, and that's where the true enjoyment and thrill is in my experience That's admirable Rob and I know you have at least bought well, but a lot of people aim for stuff that gets out of the way, but that doesn't make it accurately designed. Believe me, the amount of times I have heard that sentence when discussing units that are utter tripe is seriously alarming. |
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 4, 2022 15:37:41 GMT
"My vinyl is set up to be as faithful (as possible) and accurate (as possible) to the recording as possible,"
Hmm, well. I knew you were going to say that!
I've not heard your system, or Robbiegong's, so my comments here only apply to systems I have heard. And I've visited quite a few "audio buddies", and folks I was buying from or selling to, and forum friends, and heard many personal systems at the Wigwam forum's annual shows.
I think, without exception, if the owner hasn't been a major classical music fan then their systems don't actually sound that good on classical. (I've been to hundreds of classical concerts so I have a reasonable basis for assessment). They can actually be quite unpleasant on classical. Which, of course, they ain't bothered about at all! Their interests, and system optimisation goals, lie elsewhere.
Generally speaking their systems sound at least good, often better than good, on the music they choose to play on it.
I know some folks think that an achievably good system will play all music equally well. My own experience tells me that is complete b#ll#cks. All systems imo are tuned to the musical preferences and priorities and tastes of the owners.
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Post by savvypaul on Nov 4, 2022 15:50:15 GMT
Same - I decided on this 'faithful' approach a long time ago, as the 'foundation' to build my system on. Hence why I'm not drawn to kit that I perceive has an overt, get in the way type of character. I've found that the best kit I've ever enjoyed, regardless of even some level of the naturally inherited character, does not get in the way or hinder the music, allows the recorded music to be the star, show it's thing, and that's where the true enjoyment and thrill is in my experience That's admirable Rob and I know you have at least bought well, but a lot of people aim for stuff that gets out of the way, but that doesn't make it accurately designed. Believe me, the amount of times I have heard that sentence when discussing units that are utter tripe is seriously alarming. Lol. Getting out of the way of the music is something that I look for as a priority in any system. I think it's a good way of describing 'nothing obviously added, nothing obviously taken away', nothing to distract, albeit within the parameters of what is achievable at any particular price point. On the other hand, the amount of times I've heard people say 'accurate' about units that are utter tripe (to my ears) is similarly striking. It's too easy to pick out certain aspects of technical performance and then promote 'success' in those areas as a universal panacea, imo. |
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Post by robbiegong on Nov 4, 2022 16:18:41 GMT
"My vinyl is set up to be as faithful (as possible) and accurate (as possible) to the recording as possible," Hmm, well. I knew you were going to say that! I've not heard your system, or Robbiegong's, so my comments here only apply to systems I have heard. And I've visited quite a few "audio buddies", and folks I was buying from or selling to, and forum friends, and heard many personal systems at the Wigwam forum's annual shows. I think, without exception, if the owner hasn't been a major classical music fan then their systems don't actually sound that good on classical. (I've been to hundreds of classical concerts so I have a reasonable basis for assessment). They can actually be quite unpleasant on classical. Which, of course, they ain't bothered about at all! Their interests, and system optimisation goals, lie elsewhere. Generally speaking their systems sound at least good, often better than good, on the music they choose to play on it. I know some folks think that an achievably good system will play all music equally well. My own experience tells me that is complete b#ll#cks. All systems imo are tuned to the musical preferences and priorities and tastes of the owners. Indeed! That's why I'd be utterly gobsmacked if someone said they had a system that everything sounds great on, and simply because not every recording is good, as we know, so you should hear and expect to hear those differences / warts n all on a decent system. |
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Post by antonio on Nov 4, 2022 16:29:18 GMT
"My vinyl is set up to be as faithful (as possible) and accurate (as possible) to the recording as possible," Hmm, well. I knew you were going to say that! I've not heard your system, or Robbiegong's, so my comments here only apply to systems I have heard. And I've visited quite a few "audio buddies", and folks I was buying from or selling to, and forum friends, and heard many personal systems at the Wigwam forum's annual shows. I think, without exception, if the owner hasn't been a major classical music fan then their systems don't actually sound that good on classical. (I've been to hundreds of classical concerts so I have a reasonable basis for assessment). They can actually be quite unpleasant on classical. Which, of course, they ain't bothered about at all! Their interests, and system optimisation goals, lie elsewhere. Generally speaking their systems sound at least good, often better than good, on the music they choose to play on it. I know some folks think that an achievably good system will play all music equally well. My own experience tells me that is complete b#ll#cks. All systems imo are tuned to the musical preferences and priorities and tastes of the owners. Couldn't agree more. We went a couple of speaker dems recently, and of course you listen to your own music. One speaker in particular sounded great with acoustic and vocals, put on some rock, there was simply no life there. |
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Post by savvypaul on Nov 4, 2022 16:32:22 GMT
I think, without exception, if the owner hasn't been a major classical music fan then their systems don't actually sound that good on classical. (I've been to hundreds of classical concerts so I have a reasonable basis for assessment). I don't know if all of the above is true, but I know it's true that a fair few systems don't sound great (to my ears) with classical. I'm not a completist, but I do love a lot of classical music. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 4, 2022 18:27:51 GMT
That's admirable Rob and I know you have at least bought well, but a lot of people aim for stuff that gets out of the way, but that doesn't make it accurately designed. Believe me, the amount of times I have heard that sentence when discussing units that are utter tripe is seriously alarming. Lol. Getting out of the way of the music is something that I look for as a priority in any system. I think it's a good way of describing 'nothing obviously added, nothing obviously taken away', nothing to distract, albeit within the parameters of what is achievable at any particular price point. On the other hand, the amount of times I've heard people say 'accurate' about units that are utter tripe (to my ears) is similarly striking. It's too easy to pick out certain aspects of technical performance and then promote 'success' in those areas as a universal panacea, imo. What do you think is the result if you build something that has a none conforming RIAA curve, Paul? By altering the RIAA curve or by not having a really accurate curve, you are literally adding colouration to the sound you are hearing, colouration that wasn't on the original recording. A phonostage like that cannot technically get out of the way. Higher THD+N literally distorts the information you can retrieve from the groove. Sounds like getting in the way to me. High SNR...lose detail to background noise....taking away from the recording... The ones i am talking about in my post certainly demonstrate those issues. Properly designed devices deliver the specs and the invisibility needed to allow the TT, arm and cart to create that uninterrupted connection to the magic in the grooves. |
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Post by savvypaul on Nov 4, 2022 22:00:00 GMT
Lol. Getting out of the way of the music is something that I look for as a priority in any system. I think it's a good way of describing 'nothing obviously added, nothing obviously taken away', nothing to distract, albeit within the parameters of what is achievable at any particular price point. On the other hand, the amount of times I've heard people say 'accurate' about units that are utter tripe (to my ears) is similarly striking. It's too easy to pick out certain aspects of technical performance and then promote 'success' in those areas as a universal panacea, imo.
Higher THD+N literally distorts the information you can retrieve from the groove. Sounds like getting in the way to me. High SNR...lose detail to background noise....taking away from the recording...
The ones i am talking about in my post certainly demonstrate those issues. Properly designed devices deliver the specs and the invisibility needed to allow the TT, arm and cart to create that uninterrupted connection to the magic in the grooves.I think that very minor fluctuations in response are rarely problematic to the human ear, Oliver. Speakers (and many cartridges) deviate from a flat response to a much, much larger degree than any phono stage. I have been at bake-offs when what you might consider to be a 'non-flat' phono stage has been described as the best sounding stage by some very experienced listeners. They weren't fretting over any minor deviations from RIAA, they were talking about the way the music was being communicated. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 4, 2022 22:18:02 GMT
What do you think is the result if you build something that has a none conforming RIAA curve, Paul? By altering the RIAA curve or by not having a really accurate curve, you are literally adding colouration to the sound you are hearing, colouration that wasn't on the original recording. A phonostage like that cannot technically get out of the way. Higher THD+N literally distorts the information you can retrieve from the groove. Sounds like getting in the way to me. High SNR...lose detail to background noise....taking away from the recording... The ones i am talking about in my post certainly demonstrate those issues. Properly designed devices deliver the specs and the invisibility needed to allow the TT, arm and cart to create that uninterrupted connection to the magic in the grooves. I think that very minor fluctuations in response are rarely problematic to the human ear. Speakers (and many cartridges) deviate from a flat response to a much, much larger degree than any phono stage. I have been at bake-offs when what you might consider to be a 'non-flat' phono stage has been described as the best sounding stage by some very experienced listeners. They weren't fretting over any minor deviations from RIAA, they were talking about the way the music was being communicated. Very minor fluctuations? That's an interesting way to describe what we've seen on the oscilloscope over the years. Ah, blame the speaker for worse performance than the gear before them and that will negate the need for accuracy in the Phonostage! No chance. Opinions of "experienced listeners" are irrelevant when you make a statement about devices "not getting in the way" The truth is that from a technical standpoint, unless the device is operating below the rumble noise of the TT, the RIAA is flat, and the THD+N is as low as possible, it's not "getting out of the way" in fact, it's having a direct influence on what you are hearing. Whether it be of little or great consequence to the listeners enjoyment of the sound is irrelevant. Your comments have exactly highlighted how the lack of ASR type accountability system (like those applied to DACs) for Phonostages has led to the listener/mag/popular opinion deciding what is good and what isn't, rather than a technical definition or rating system. Sitting there saying the specs don't matter is ridiculous. They do matter, because they tell you how technically proficient the design is. I've had people here telling me their Decware valve Phonostage puts them in the recording.....I don't know what recording it is because I couldn't hear it over the hiss and a rising shelf up to 8db by 20hz...but yeah, speakers are worse. Folks telling me their £8k Phonostage sounds a bit HiFi...no Sh#t, it had Eddie the eagle taking off from the bottom of the square wave. Then the designer blames the valves.....that he supplied for a premium! Opinions? No thanks, too many variables. Far better to measure them and see what's what from a technical standpoint. I usually suspect that manufacturers/designers who don't share measurements/performance specs of their devices are trying to hide something. Might just be that I'm cynical, but it's usually the first red flag when I'm researching new equipment to be honest. |
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Post by savvypaul on Nov 4, 2022 22:32:05 GMT
I think that very minor fluctuations in response are rarely problematic to the human ear. Speakers (and many cartridges) deviate from a flat response to a much, much larger degree than any phono stage. I have been at bake-offs when what you might consider to be a 'non-flat' phono stage has been described as the best sounding stage by some very experienced listeners. They weren't fretting over any minor deviations from RIAA, they were talking about the way the music was being communicated. Very minor fluctuations? That's an interesting way to describe what we've seen on the oscilloscope over the years. Ah, blame the speaker for worse performance than the gear before them and that will negate the need for accuracy in the Phonostage! No chance. Opinions of "experienced listeners" are irrelevant when you make a statement about devices "not getting in the way" The truth is that from a technical standpoint, unless the device is operating below the rumble noise of the TT, the RIAA is flat, and the THD+N is as low as possible, it's not "getting out of the way" in fact, it's having a direct influence on what you are hearing. Whether it be of little or great consequence to the listeners enjoyment of the sound is irrelevant. Your comments have exactly highlighted how the lack of ASR type accountability system (like those applied to DACs) for Phonostages has led to the listener/mag/popular opinion deciding what is good and what isn't, rather than a technical definition or rating system. Sitting there saying the specs don't matter is ridiculous. They do matter, because they tell you how technically proficient the design is. I've had people here telling me their Decware valve Phonostage puts them in the recording.....I don't know what recording it is because I couldn't hear it over the hiss and a rising shelf up to 8db by 20hz...but yeah, speakers are worse. Folks telling me their £8k Phonostage sounds a bit HiFi...no Sh#t, it had Eddie the eagle taking off from the bottom of the square wave. Then the designer blames the valves.....that he supplied 😂😂 Opinions? Manufacturers bullshit?...No thanks, too many variables. Far better to measure them and see what's what from a technical standpoint. Here's what Nick Gorham has said about RIAA... Personally I think the accuracy of the RIAA eq is a data point. I prefer to be as close as I can to it, but there are various reasons why it can and can't matter.1. RIAA is spot on, but making that so has hurt the sound of the thing - Problematic
2. RIAA is more than close enough, making it any closer would not be noticed - Fine
3. RIAA is not perfect, but making it any closer would hurt the sound of the thing more than any advantage gained by closer eq - Fine
4. RIAA is intentionally broken, its a intended trick to make the unit sound "different" from others - Bogus.If you are stating that large and intentional deviations from RIAA, that have a large and obvious impact on the musical presentation are unacceptable, I tend to agree. If you are saying that 'any' deviation from RIAA is unacceptable, then I disagree. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 4, 2022 22:41:08 GMT
Very minor fluctuations? That's an interesting way to describe what we've seen on the oscilloscope over the years. Ah, blame the speaker for worse performance than the gear before them and that will negate the need for accuracy in the Phonostage! No chance. Opinions of "experienced listeners" are irrelevant when you make a statement about devices "not getting in the way" The truth is that from a technical standpoint, unless the device is operating below the rumble noise of the TT, the RIAA is flat, and the THD+N is as low as possible, it's not "getting out of the way" in fact, it's having a direct influence on what you are hearing. Whether it be of little or great consequence to the listeners enjoyment of the sound is irrelevant. Your comments have exactly highlighted how the lack of ASR type accountability system (like those applied to DACs) for Phonostages has led to the listener/mag/popular opinion deciding what is good and what isn't, rather than a technical definition or rating system. Sitting there saying the specs don't matter is ridiculous. They do matter, because they tell you how technically proficient the design is. I've had people here telling me their Decware valve Phonostage puts them in the recording.....I don't know what recording it is because I couldn't hear it over the hiss and a rising shelf up to 8db by 20hz...but yeah, speakers are worse. Folks telling me their £8k Phonostage sounds a bit HiFi...no Sh#t, it had Eddie the eagle taking off from the bottom of the square wave. Then the designer blames the valves.....that he supplied 😂😂 Opinions? Manufacturers bullshit?...No thanks, too many variables. Far better to measure them and see what's what from a technical standpoint. Here's what Nick Gorham has said about RIAA... Personally I think the accuracy of the RIAA eq is a data point. I prefer to be as close as I can to it, but there are various reasons why it can and can't matter.
1. RIAA is spot on, but making that so has hurt the sound of the thing - Problematic
2. RIAA is more than close enough, making it any closer would not be noticed - Fine
3. RIAA is not perfect, but making it any closer would hurt the sound of the thing more than any advantage gained by closer eq - Fine
4. RIAA is intentionally broken, its a intended trick to make the unit sound "different" from others - Bogus.If you are stating that large and intentional deviations from RIAA, that have a large and obvious impact on the musical presentation are unacceptable, I tend to agree. If you are saying that 'any' deviation from RIAA is unacceptable, then I disagree. NG is talking about RIAA in isolation and his opinion on its importance vs nobbling the overall performance for the last drops of a % of RIAA accuracy. "RIAA is intentionally broken, its a intended trick to make the unit sound "different" from others - Bogus.[/i] If you are stating that large and intentional deviations from RIAA, that have a large and obvious impact on the musical presentation are unacceptable, I tend to agree" Yeah, me too! And those units that do that are not getting out of the way, and I have measured units that do that and have been described as getting out of the way of the music.....they simply do not. That statement by NG is not a get out of jail free card for poor design. Most valve equipment has a RIAA that deviates slightly at some point over the 20-20hz range. +/- 0.5% is the accepted amount to be declared "accurate", but not in my opinion. Solid state has no excuses to not be technically proficient, and it doesn't have to hinder the sound quality...if you know what you're doing, that won't happen anyway. To describe a Phonostage as "getting out of the way" I'm talking about the SNR, Distortion, Rumble levels, RIAA accuracy plus other measurable parameters ALL having to be right and below the levels of the medium. |
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Post by macca on Nov 4, 2022 22:45:37 GMT
What do you think is the result if you build something that has a none conforming RIAA curve, Paul? By altering the RIAA curve or by not having a really accurate curve, you are literally adding colouration to the sound you are hearing, colouration that wasn't on the original recording. A phonostage like that cannot technically get out of the way.
Higher THD+N literally distorts the information you can retrieve from the groove. Sounds like getting in the way to me. High SNR...lose detail to background noise....taking away from the recording...
The ones i am talking about in my post certainly demonstrate those issues. Properly designed devices deliver the specs and the invisibility needed to allow the TT, arm and cart to create that uninterrupted connection to the magic in the grooves.I think that very minor fluctuations in response are rarely problematic to the human ear, Oliver. Speakers (and many cartridges) deviate from a flat response to a much, much larger degree than any phono stage. I have been at bake-offs when what you might consider to be a 'non-flat' phono stage has been described as the best sounding stage by some very experienced listeners. They weren't fretting over any minor deviations from RIAA, they were talking about the way the music was being communicated. 'very experienced listners' - Can you gain experience in a totally passive activity? I mean I've watched a lot of TV over the years but I wouldn't describe myself as an 'experienced viewer'. The idea that there can somehow be a 'listening elite' intrigues me. I'd suggest that all opinions of how 'the music was being communicated' are equally valid no matter the number of hours of listening any individual has racked up. |
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Post by savvypaul on Nov 4, 2022 23:02:48 GMT
'very experienced listners' - Can you gain experience in a totally passive activity? I mean I've watched a lot of TV over the years but I wouldn't describe myself as an 'experienced viewer'. The idea that there can somehow be a 'listening elite' intrigues me. I'd suggest that all opinions of how 'the music was being communicated' are equally valid no matter the number of hours of listening any individual has racked up. If I hear a 'proper' hi-fi system for the first time and I think it sounds great, does it sound great compared to other hi-fi systems or does it, in that moment, sound great to me because my only previous benchmark was the cassette player in a Ford Fiesta? If I have subsequently heard hundreds of hi-fi systems, am I more experienced than when I had just heard my first hi-fi system? For me, the answer is obvious. It is true that experience does not automatically imply ability. I'm not sure about a 'listening elite' but I know people who are able to quickly tell what is wrong with a system. |
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Post by savvypaul on Nov 4, 2022 23:07:47 GMT
Here's what Nick Gorham has said about RIAA... Personally I think the accuracy of the RIAA eq is a data point. I prefer to be as close as I can to it, but there are various reasons why it can and can't matter.
1. RIAA is spot on, but making that so has hurt the sound of the thing - Problematic
2. RIAA is more than close enough, making it any closer would not be noticed - Fine
3. RIAA is not perfect, but making it any closer would hurt the sound of the thing more than any advantage gained by closer eq - Fine
4. RIAA is intentionally broken, its a intended trick to make the unit sound "different" from others - Bogus.If you are stating that large and intentional deviations from RIAA, that have a large and obvious impact on the musical presentation are unacceptable, I tend to agree. If you are saying that 'any' deviation from RIAA is unacceptable, then I disagree. NG is talking about RIAA in isolation and his opinion on its importance vs nobbling the overall performance for the last drops of a % of RIAA accuracy. "RIAA is intentionally broken, its a intended trick to make the unit sound "different" from others - Bogus. [/i] If you are stating that large and intentional deviations from RIAA, that have a large and obvious impact on the musical presentation are unacceptable, I tend to agree" Yeah, me too! And those units that do that are not getting out of the way, and I have measured units that do that and have been described as getting out of the way of the music.....they simply do not. That statement by NG is not a get out of jail free card for poor design. Most valve equipment has a RIAA that deviates slightly at some point over the 20-20hz range. +/- 0.5% is the accepted amount to be declared "accurate", but not in my opinion. Solid state has no excuses to not be technically proficient, and it doesn't have to hinder the sound quality...if you know what you're doing, that won't happen anyway. To describe a Phonostage as "getting out of the way" I'm talking about the SNR, Distortion, Rumble levels, RIAA accuracy plus other measurable parameters ALL having to be right and below the levels of the medium. [/quote] Nothing is perfect, everything is a compromise. The effect of tube ageing on RIAA filters and other amplifier stages being one example. IMO, the trick is finding the set of compromises that least damages the music. 'Getting out of the way of the music' is not a bad or irrelevant term to use, of itself, but any phrase can be misappropriated by anyone. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,412
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 4, 2022 23:20:38 GMT
[/quote]
None of that means that 'getting out of the way of the music' is a bad or irrelevant term to use, generally. Any phrase can be misappropriated by anyone.
[/quote]
No, it's not irrelevant.....just probably not true.
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