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Post by nonuffin on Nov 4, 2019 9:53:19 GMT
I really do get a lot of fun reading these cable threads when you lot are stumbling about in the dark regarding this subject.
The biggest issue you all seem unable to grasp, is that ALL cables are flawed and what you are discussing is the lack of or the severity of, these flaws and you always start the discussion with the misconception that one cable is "better" than another one, when it isn't, it just has a different set of flaws to contend with and some of them just happen to align with your listening preferences, or accidently stumble into that mysterious zone we laughingly call "synergy". I don't believe there is such a thing.
Any cable above twenty quid you all seem to be very disparaging of, but let me tell you that the more money you pay, the less imperfections it is likely to have and hence why you get a "better" sound. The cables in my own system actually exceeds the value of my system, but I rest secure in the knowledge that whatever faults my system may have, it won't be the cables responsible and I have done my best to get rid of the cheap heavily flawed cables.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 10:06:59 GMT
Sounds like self justification to me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 10:13:13 GMT
I really do get a lot of fun reading these cable threads when you lot are stumbling about in the dark regarding this subject. The biggest issue you all seem unable to grasp, is that ALL cables are flawed and what you are discussing is the lack of or the severity of, these flaws and you always start the discussion with the misconception that one cable is "better" than another one, when it isn't, it just has a different set of flaws to contend with and some of them just happen to align with your listening preferences, or accidently stumble into that mysterious zone we laughingly call "synergy". I don't believe there is such a thing. Any cable above twenty quid you all seem to be very disparaging of, but let me tell you that the more money you pay, the less imperfections it is likely to have and hence why you get a "better" sound. The cables in my own system actually exceeds the value of my system, but I rest secure in the knowledge that whatever faults my system may have, it won't be the cables responsible and I have done my best to get rid of the cheap heavily flawed cables. I am not part of "you lot". It's a disparaging term anyway. I agree with your first main paragraph, I've been saying similar for years. Choosing cables is a matter of finding the least worst option and that can vary with partnering equipment. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 10:16:07 GMT
I really do get a lot of fun reading these cable threads when you lot are stumbling about in the dark regarding this subject. The biggest issue you all seem unable to grasp, is that ALL cables are flawed and what you are discussing is the lack of or the severity of, these flaws and you always start the discussion with the misconception that one cable is "better" than another one, when it isn't, it just has a different set of flaws to contend with and some of them just happen to align with your listening preferences, or accidently stumble into that mysterious zone we laughingly call "synergy". I don't believe there is such a thing. Any cable above twenty quid you all seem to be very disparaging of, but let me tell you that the more money you pay, the less imperfections it is likely to have and hence why you get a "better" sound. The cables in my own system actually exceeds the value of my system, but I rest secure in the knowledge that whatever faults my system may have, it won't be the cables responsible and I have done my best to get rid of the cheap heavily flawed cables. "you all" I don't think a generalised blanket statement is quite fair. I've long championed the effect of good cables and I'd alps point out that everything in your system, as well as everyone else's, is designed with compromises. We just select the kit with the type of compromises our ears seem to accept. When all is said and done, I don't think £1000+ is required for a cable, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try one! I just have an aversion to paying £500 for a cable that has £100 worth of materials in it. That's why I am not a fan. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 11:03:41 GMT
The cables in my own system actually exceeds the value of my system, but I rest secure in the knowledge that whatever faults my system may have, it won't be the cables responsible and I have done my best to get rid of the cheap heavily flawed cables. What would have happened if you'd spent the cable money on better components? What happens when you do buy better components, do you now need to spend even more on cables? I am assuming that until you try those cables with better/best components you can't actually know if they're really any good or not assuming of course you didn't buy them after testing with better components but then who decides what those better components are if the cables are holding stuff back. My head is in a spin..... |
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Post by nonuffin on Nov 4, 2019 12:00:29 GMT
The cables in my own system actually exceeds the value of my system, but I rest secure in the knowledge that whatever faults my system may have, it won't be the cables responsible and I have done my best to get rid of the cheap heavily flawed cables. What would have happened if you'd spent the cable money on better components? What happens when you do buy better components, do you now need to spend even more on cables? I am assuming that until you try those cables with better/best components you can't actually know if they're really any good or not assuming of course you didn't buy them after testing with better components but then who decides what those better components are if the cables are holding stuff back. My head is in a spin..... Being a hifi reviewer means I have had the pick of better components at any time I wanted  When doing the actual reviews, what would have been the outcome had I used the cheap cables which are full of fllaws? |
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Post by nonuffin on Nov 4, 2019 12:05:41 GMT
I really do get a lot of fun reading these cable threads when you lot are stumbling about in the dark regarding this subject. The biggest issue you all seem unable to grasp, is that ALL cables are flawed and what you are discussing is the lack of or the severity of, these flaws and you always start the discussion with the misconception that one cable is "better" than another one, when it isn't, it just has a different set of flaws to contend with and some of them just happen to align with your listening preferences, or accidently stumble into that mysterious zone we laughingly call "synergy". I don't believe there is such a thing. Any cable above twenty quid you all seem to be very disparaging of, but let me tell you that the more money you pay, the less imperfections it is likely to have and hence why you get a "better" sound. The cables in my own system actually exceeds the value of my system, but I rest secure in the knowledge that whatever faults my system may have, it won't be the cables responsible and I have done my best to get rid of the cheap heavily flawed cables. "you all" I don't think a generalised blanket statement is quite fair. I've long championed the effect of good cables and I'd alps point out that everything in your system, as well as everyone else's, is designed with compromises. We just select the kit with the type of compromises our ears seem to accept. When all is said and done, I don't think £1000+ is required for a cable, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try one! I just have an aversion to paying £500 for a cable that has £100 worth of materials in it. That's why I am not a fan. Should I have said "you all" and followed it with a list of people not included? LOL
No offence intended to anyone, but from the outside looking in to these threads there is a lot of circularity going on with nobody saying what needs to be said - which I did  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 12:10:17 GMT
So what will we talk about now that's sorted ?
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Post by macca on Nov 4, 2019 12:13:46 GMT
No really practical advice though is it? 'Use a cable with the least amount of flaws.' - that doesn't get me any further to anywhere.
I've got carrier bags full of the bloody things and the only ones that cost less than £20 are the freebie ones. Those currently in use cost a lot, lot more than £20
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 12:21:51 GMT
What would have happened if you'd spent the cable money on better components? What happens when you do buy better components, do you now need to spend even more on cables? I am assuming that until you try those cables with better/best components you can't actually know if they're really any good or not assuming of course you didn't buy them after testing with better components but then who decides what those better components are if the cables are holding stuff back. My head is in a spin..... Being a hifi reviewer means I have had the pick of better components at any time I wanted When doing the actual reviews, what would have been the outcome had I used the cheap cables which are full of fllaws? I don't know, you tell me. Cable flaw versus equipment flaw, who knows. That was my point, how do you come to the conclusion you have the best cable as the kit you used to determine that may have "flaws" that compensated or whatever.
Maybe you need expensive cables to offset flaws in your kit that was it different (better) you'd only need the cheap cables.
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Post by nonuffin on Nov 4, 2019 12:24:08 GMT
No really practical advice though is it? 'Use a cable with the least amount of flaws.' - that doesn't get me any further to anywhere. I've got carrier bags full of the bloody things and the only ones that cost less than £20 are the freebie ones. Those currently in use cost a lot, lot more than £20 My general rule of thumb is to avoid like the plague the cable makers that are well known, like Chord, Nordost, Audioquest, QED, etc., as they don't ring my bells at all so are poor value. Having said that, at least you can move them on if they don't suit because joe public loves brand names and tend to buy them secondhand.
It is the smaller artisan cable guys that five you the best bang for buck I have found.
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Post by nonuffin on Nov 4, 2019 12:28:39 GMT
Being a hifi reviewer means I have had the pick of better components at any time I wanted When doing the actual reviews, what would have been the outcome had I used the cheap cables which are full of fllaws? I don't know, you tell me. Cable flaw versus equipment flaw, who knows. That was my point, how do you come to the conclusion you have the best cable as the kit you used to determine that may have "flaws" that compensated or whatever.
Maybe you need expensive cables to offset flaws in your kit that was it different (better) you'd only need the cheap cables.
The logic is buried in your post Scotty.
With all highly flawed cables in any system, then surely all the component flaws are being masked by those same cables?
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Post by macca on Nov 4, 2019 12:54:26 GMT
No really practical advice though is it? 'Use a cable with the least amount of flaws.' - that doesn't get me any further to anywhere. I've got carrier bags full of the bloody things and the only ones that cost less than £20 are the freebie ones. Those currently in use cost a lot, lot more than £20 My general rule of thumb is to avoid like the plague the cable makers that are well known, like Chord, Nordost, Audioquest, QED, etc., as they don't ring my bells at all so are poor value. Having said that, at least you can move them on if they don't suit because joe public loves brand names and tend to buy them secondhand.
It is the smaller artisan cable guys that five you the best bang for buck I have found.
My speaker cable and interconnects are from a smaller artisan cable guy. But if I combine the LS5 speaker cable with the 'artisan' interconnects I get that bass artifact. With all my many other speaker cables (including those from the smaller artisan cable guy) it doesn't happen, and with all my many other interconnects it doesn't happen.
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Post by dsjr on Nov 4, 2019 12:56:23 GMT
I know pro's use balanced lines, but if you go into a studio and see literally 'miles' of cables, especially in a mixer patch bay, it tends to put a few feet of domestic interconnect more into perspective - well it did for me anyway...
I wish I could remember what the ultra thick black copper cable was that we used at KJ when I was there for a short while in th elate 90's. Half inch thick at least and two a side. No sound at all apart from helping the speakers deliver..
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 12:59:47 GMT
I don't know, you tell me. Cable flaw versus equipment flaw, who knows. That was my point, how do you come to the conclusion you have the best cable as the kit you used to determine that may have "flaws" that compensated or whatever.
Maybe you need expensive cables to offset flaws in your kit that was it different (better) you'd only need the cheap cables.
The logic is buried in your post Scotty.
With all highly flawed cables in any system, then surely all the component flaws are being masked by those same cables?
Maybe it is...
I think my point is supposed to be there are flaws everywhere and assuming you have the best cable to then allow components to shine ignores the fact that certain cables may have hidden the component flaws and with different components you'd have come to a different conclusion re the best cable.
I think....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 13:48:03 GMT
My general rule of thumb is to avoid like the plague the cable makers that are well known, like Chord, Nordost, Audioquest, QED, etc., as they don't ring my bells at all so are poor value. Having said that, at least you can move them on if they don't suit because joe public loves brand names and tend to buy them secondhand.
It is the smaller artisan cable guys that five you the best bang for buck I have found.
My speaker cable and interconnects are from a smaller artisan cable guy. But if I combine the LS5 speaker cable with the 'artisan' interconnects I get that bass artifact. With all my many other speaker cables (including those from the smaller artisan cable guy) it doesn't happen, and with all my many other interconnects it doesn't happen.
Interestingly, I had a strange experience a couple of days back with cables from that "Artisan" (teehee)
Id been using some Klotz MY205 cables between Pre and Power for a couple of weeks whilst I waited for the new cables to arrive. Upon building the cable, I plugged them in between Pre and Power and replaced the Klotz MY205.
To my surprise, I had a subsonic issue with my left speaker. The drivers were wobbling whilst the needle was in the lead in groove on the vinyl. I lifted the needle and it stopped.
I called Alan to see what was possibly causing it and he suggested that I may have my bias set a little too high, as it was only affecting one speaker. I adjusted the bias and sure enough, it was off a bit. I tried the same LP again and now the "wobbly" drivers were cured.
I sat down for a listen and it suddenly struck me that I had just "seen" a difference in the cables. I put the Klotz back in and I couldn't get the subsonic wobbly drivers back. I adjusted the bias deliberately high and no, just wasn't happening.
I put the "Artisan" back in and I managed to replicate the issue again.
I believe it demonstrates that the "Artisan" cable is allowing more of the LF signal through than the Klotz did.
Absolutely nothing else changed in the system btw.
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Post by macca on Nov 4, 2019 14:02:27 GMT
There's definitely something going on. Obvious bass distortion and wobbly drivers cannot be dismissed as purely psychological. They will still be there even if testing blind.
I've no doubt there is a technical explanation but I'm damned if I know what it is. If we could find that out we could solve the whole cable debate forever!
Anyway the point is it proves cables can sometimes make a real difference, even if we don't know why.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 14:36:47 GMT
There's definitely something going on. Obvious bass distortion and wobbly drivers cannot be dismissed as purely psychological. They will still be there even if testing blind. I've no doubt there is a technical explanation but I'm damned if I know what it is. If we could find that out we could solve the whole cable debate forever! Anyway the point is it proves cables can sometimes make a real difference, even if we don't know why. I will just add that I have never had that issue before and have been using a full loom of the "artisans" cables for a good 18months or maybe more. I regularly test other cables and and equipment so my only credible explanation is that .
What It had done is demonstrate that my ears aren't lying to me when I compared the two cables.
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When doing the actual reviews, what would have been the outcome had I used the cheap cables which are full of fllaws? 
