Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 13, 2018 9:29:16 GMT
I snapped up a pair of these last night and I have no idea if or when I will get a chance to play with them. They are a speaker I never got to hear back in the day because our branch didn't stock them. The service engineer who had similar tastes to me thought they were better than MA852s so I figured they were worth a punt.
Has anyone heard them? What are they like? Bearing in mind my tastes, is there much chance I could like what I hear? They will sit with a mate for now but I hope to grab them sometime down the line.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 13, 2018 9:41:08 GMT
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Post by antonio on May 13, 2018 10:14:07 GMT
Never heard them, were they a replacement for the Index?
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Post by dsjr on May 13, 2018 10:24:13 GMT
Don't even get me started on these. Oh Andrew  |
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Post by antonio on May 13, 2018 10:32:51 GMT
Don't even get me started on these. Oh Andrew Made me laugh, I kinda had that thought myself, even though I've never heard them. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 13, 2018 11:30:50 GMT
Well I can always blame the service engineer for tempting me! I got them super cheap so can't really lose, the tweeters are worth more than I paid. Not that I'd ever break up a speaker. It's just wrong AFAIC.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 13, 2018 11:41:15 GMT
I was a bit bummed when Dave suggested they might not be world beaters. Thankfully I can confirm "What Hifi" gave them 5 stars so they must be amazing!  |
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Post by dsjr on May 13, 2018 13:49:42 GMT
A freshly graduated engineer went to work for Linn at the time apparently. Everything including the kitchen sink and the bath too, went into the original hugely over-complicated crossover network, which was almost as bad as that picture of a table sized 'crossover' full of inductors, caps, resistors for this that and the other and miles of wiring. The drive units were cheap too but the external 'package' looks good though. Robin M had a look when he visited once and sighed knowingly, as he'd started the same way with early Audiomaster speakers and then progressively took components out (the popular mid size Monitor Audio 252's and 352's had a coil on the bass driver and a cap on the tweeter and of course we've discussed the endearing ES11 and ES14's (the ES11 parallel resistor was for impedance matching to aid the amp, nothing more I gather).
Best Linn box of that era was the Helix 2. That one allowed more music to leave the box and they didn't shriek like all the Indexes did.
The Nexus went into four revisions in it's life I gather, so maybe it was sorted by the end.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 13, 2018 14:22:49 GMT
Thanks again for the extra info.
I think the online account got watered down but I recall reading the engineer writing about working for Linn on that range, especially the Helix. Every time he got something working well, Ivor would pop up and ask him to cut another corner. Cheaper tweeter, cheaper bass unit, cheaper crossover components etc etc.
One thing did stick with me, The nomenclature was meant to refer to the intended price point: Helix LS150 (£150) , Nexus LS250 (£250), Kaber LS500 (£500) and Keltik LS750 (£750). He ended up building a cheaper speaker range than planned only for Ivor to hike the release prices! I do remember Nexus at £399 and Kaber at £999 (they quickly rose to £1199 I recall). The funniest of all was the Keltik. Ivor decided to remove the crossover and "upgrade" it's status to be the flagship design. Wasn't it either £3500 or £4500 on release?
The designer went on to form his own company called Legend Acoustics I recall. Some of his story may still be out there.
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Post by dsjr on May 13, 2018 15:34:00 GMT
I'm sure that's right.
I'm not in the slightest bit racist, but the culture that both Ivor T and Julian V came from was a 'buy cheap, sell dear' business mentality. Max T felt the same, but I still can't imagine a Rock turntable selling then for £550 only costing fifty five notes to make.
The Linn Lingo was £499 and cost £47 ex-factory I was told by the Linn rep, so today, a fifty quid Linn belt really costs them around a fiver. Kind of puts Linn and Naim prices better into perspective, yet it's Naim that has the really endearing brand awareness, yet I'm repeatedly told the old two channel stuff hardly sells these days apart from Naits. A couple of years ago, Naim took the Super-Nait, removed the DAC board and increased the price! How about that then - and nobody except old codgers like me batted an eyelid
Andrew, I apologise again. Over familiarity with these companies has tainted my opinion, especially as my income is a fraction of what it used to be in the bad old days - and I never worked on commission either! I remember some things, but not others like prices overmuch unless it's cartridges, but I thought the Nexus was always around £450 to £500, the Helix around £350 and Index Plus around £250, but this could have been with stands???
I don't know. If you don't like them, you could try bypassing the crossover entirely with just a 2.2uF or 3.3uF cap to the tweeter and see if that helps? Not sure if they're stuffed with wadding either...
By the way, the slotted port was a very good idea, minimising nasty chuffing noises that cylindrical ports had, even stuffed with drinking straws...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 13, 2018 18:19:27 GMT
I'm sure that's right.
I'm not in the slightest bit racist, but the culture that both Ivor T and Julian V came from was a 'buy cheap, sell dear' business mentality. Max T felt the same, but I still can't imagine a Rock turntable selling then for £550 only costing fifty five notes to make.
The Linn Lingo was £499 and cost £47 ex-factory I was told by the Linn rep, so today, a fifty quid Linn belt really costs them around a fiver. Kind of puts Linn and Naim prices better into perspective, yet it's Naim that has the really endearing brand awareness, yet I'm repeatedly told the old two channel stuff hardly sells these days apart from Naits. A couple of years ago, Naim took the Super-Nait, removed the DAC board and increased the price! How about that then - and nobody except old codgers like me batted an eyelid
Andrew, I apologise again. Over familiarity with these companies has tainted my opinion, especially as my income is a fraction of what it used to be in the bad old days - and I never worked on commission either! I remember some things, but not others like prices overmuch unless it's cartridges, but I thought the Nexus was always around £450 to £500, the Helix around £350 and Index Plus around £250, but this could have been with stands???
I don't know. If you don't like them, you could try bypassing the crossover entirely with just a 2.2uF or 3.3uF cap to the tweeter and see if that helps? Not sure if they're stuffed with wadding either...
By the way, the slotted port was a very good idea, minimising nasty chuffing noises that cylindrical ports had, even stuffed with drinking straws...
Hi Dave. No need to apologise. For one I'm loving reading your posts, second I agree about the pricing and culture and three I think we are both right  Even then, £47 for a Lingo shocked even me Imagine how cheap an old lathe PSU board would be! |
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Post by pauld on May 14, 2018 11:45:56 GMT
I had a pair of Nexus before I replaced them with the ES14’s which were massively better but around the same price range.
Sound wise, I quite liked the Nexus, but they weren’t exactly the last word in terms of refinement.
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Post by dsjr on May 14, 2018 13:23:50 GMT
The thing is, the ES14 drivers probably cost several times as much as the Chinese? things Linn imported. Kabers and Keltiks used a ceramic dome tweeter with mesh front that I think Visaton may still make, but this was a terrible thing, the replacememt rib fronted version used in the late 90's models far sweeter and more realistic and an excellent upgrade.
In some ways, I'd like to revisit some of these products again to see how time has changed them and how a more modern system would change perceptions. For example, later SBL's sound rather better used with other gear than the CB era Naim amps they were conceived with. Was the grainy sound a factor of the 'period' Linn driving amps as much as anything else? I got into trouble when I slagged off the Mission 752's recently, criticising a lumpy bass and fizzy tweeter. When new, the lumpen bass was tamed by pulling them well clear of a wall, but this made the fizz even worse. Nearly thirty years down the line and most of the fizz has been worn away (tweeters can lose output with age) and the mids from the Aerogel driver were always good I remember. The Rogers LS7 'T' and B&W 601 were two others that softened out beneficially over ten or more years of use...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 14, 2018 13:47:36 GMT
You're dead right about that ceramic tweeter. Painful is the first word that springs to mind. I cannot think of a nastier tweeter.
I think you'd be genuinely surprised by the SBL when paired with other amps. They can be really open and silkily sophisticated with something like an Audion. They also sound cleaner with NVA than they do with flat earth stuff.
I also agree with you about time apparently taming some speakers. My ES14s bought new were definitely more "picky" than the subsequent pairs I have owned with 20 or more years under their belts.
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Post by dsjr on May 14, 2018 15:47:44 GMT
Fifteen years ago, you could pick up mk2 SBL's for well under a grand used. The complex and expensive cabinet layout put people off and SBL's with not-working gaskets were absolutely hideous to listen to. Not sure of prices now... Assuming Naim still supply the gaskets and aluminium pads, I expect they'd want a hundred or two for them
Checking on eBay - mk1 SBL's or iffy mk2's under £500. Good mk2's up to a grand with some character wanting £1600 to 'upgrade' them, whatever that entails. Gasket sets around £120.
For several hundred and if you really know what you're doing, a pair of mk2 SBL's with fresh gaskets and foam grilles (the drivers are really ugly) could make a great speaker choice. Like NVA's though, not for ignorant numpties... |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 14, 2018 18:00:36 GMT
They do take a bit of fettling. They can usually be picked up for around £250 these days in black. Much more in walnut.
Last time I looked the gasket kits were £85. But Naim have hiked a few prices since then so it will probably be more. A mate of mine (worked in the auto industry) sourced the same materials those gaskets are made of for me for nothing. The Aluminium is easy to get hold of and cut.
I have had to fettle a few pairs in my time but the worst were Malcolm Stewards ex pair. They featured in so many reviews that they were iconic to me. I bought them from a dealer expecting a bit of wear and tear, but they were really bad, having been stored in his Summer House. Thankfully the drivers were fine but they had the following issues to sort.
Cabinet edges had opened with moisture. They took some serious glueing and clamping to get back.
Internal wadding was damp and needed replacing
Entire stand structure needed sand blasting and powder coating, which meant total dismantling of internals.
I got them back to looking like new and sounding perfect, but leaving the UK meant giving them to a friend. Annoyingly he quickly sold them on to another guy who is an inveterate bodger. He didn't even mention their heritage either, so they likely ended up in bits or tired into a pair of bedside cabinets.
If there is one thing I would change about the SBL it would be to incorporate leaf spring fixing used in the IBL and DBL. I've owned SBLs and IBLs at the same time and there is a definite advanatage that I attribute to that fixing
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 19:00:32 GMT
So-called friends!!
S.
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Post by dsjr on May 14, 2018 19:40:11 GMT
I've had a few like that. Happy to buy purely to play for a while and pass on.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 14, 2018 19:53:51 GMT
Yeah I wasn't too pleased but we go a long way back. I put so much love into them and with what subsequently happened to Malcolm, it still upsets me., |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2018 23:10:14 GMT
Lovely smallish speakers the SBL. I wouldn't write off the Nexus if you are willing to mod them. First thing I would do is rip out the wadding and damp the cabinet walls. They are jam packed with cheap wadding. Second thing is upgrade crossover bits and wire. The guy who made them has probably done a good job tying the drivers together but he would have been told to save every penny on components.
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Post by dsjr on May 25, 2018 18:47:33 GMT
If all the wadding is taken out, there's a risk of the port sounding off - the wadding excess would have been put there for good reason, even if using so much risks taking much of the music away as well I suspect. I doubt the bas-mid driver is blessed with a decent magnet, so the stuffing in the box may well try to damp it more as a kind of bodge.
The crossover may well have been heavily modified as the model progresed, but early Nexus models had a very over-complex one as I remember - 32 elements for a two way (I think from memory). Would be interesting to see how the main driver sounds wide-open. The tweeter isn't really good enough for a single cap unless of a very low value to bring it in high, but again this could be tried.
Linn had drifted away from the 'tune dem' ritual by this time and were trying to be 'rhythm kings' instead. Pace, Rhythm And Timing ruled all by this time, so damping the hell out of a speaker like this to keep the thump pounding away could be seem as par for the course - loads of cheap wadding costs less than a larger driver magnet methinks...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 26, 2018 9:19:24 GMT
I will likely just leave them as stock, play and move on once I've got their measure, I'm just curious given my former colleagues enthusiasm for them. He had pretty good taste based on his other likes. My Spicas are my forever speakers.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 4, 2018 18:30:22 GMT
I never even unboxed them. I came back to almost 40 bits of kit and couldn’t be bothered with them. A guy came in a taxi and took them away still boxed up, I guess I will remain in the dark about them.
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Post by pauld on Jun 25, 2018 13:40:53 GMT
Shame you never got to hear them, Andrew. I would have valued your opinion on them.
Although I don't get your interest in Naim speakers. For me they produce possibly the worst sound I have ever heard, they just sound like someone is pulling their sharp finger nails down a black board, no music whatsoever, just bright nastiness.
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