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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2019 18:47:05 GMT
Last year I tried some P3ESR speakers. The mids and tonal balance was lovely. These are the kind of speakers that you can listen for long periods. Wondering, is it because I dislike forward sounding speakers?? Westie & Macca will hate these little Harbeths.
Can happily live with P3ESR and end my loudspeaker hunt!
Might think about getting a pair by the end of year.
S.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 5, 2019 19:30:37 GMT
Last year I tried some P3ESR speakers. The mids and tonal balance was lovely. These are the kind of speakers that you can listen for long periods. Wondering, is it because I dislike forward sounding speakers?? Westie & Macca will hate these little Harbeths. Can happily live with P3ESR and end my loudspeaker hunt! Might think about getting a pair by the end of year. S. My mate had some HL-P3ES a while ago. They were nice but maybe a bit civilised for me. I only heard a few mins though. My mate did like them but he thought they were “a poor man’s Linn Kan” and ended up buying the real deal  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2019 20:00:39 GMT
The compact Harbeth's are nothing like Kan's. So calling them ''a poor man's Kan'' is plain daft.
S.
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Post by antonio on Jul 6, 2019 5:02:09 GMT
Good luck in finding a pair at a good price Shane.
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Post by macca on Jul 6, 2019 9:44:13 GMT
Last year I tried some P3ESR speakers. The mids and tonal balance was lovely. These are the kind of speakers that you can listen for long periods. Wondering, is it because I dislike forward sounding speakers?? Westie & Macca will hate these little Harbeths. Can happily live with P3ESR and end my loudspeaker hunt! Might think about getting a pair by the end of year. S. In fairness I hate all small speakers, not just small Harbeths. I hate all headphones too but I can sort of understand why some have to use headphones due to circumstances. There's no excuse for small speakers. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 6, 2019 11:48:16 GMT
Small room, family, spouse/partner and loads of other reasons...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 6, 2019 12:39:27 GMT
Small room, family, spouse/partner and loads of other reasons... Yeah I agree, but then Macca and I are seeking different things. I can completely get why he sees no point in them. I can’t help but agree with headphones too, although like him, I can see their uses when you have severe restrictions on sound levels. IME even a £50 pair of small speakers from Richer will see off any headphones. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 6, 2019 12:42:16 GMT
Good luck in finding a pair at a good price Shane. May mate got his P3-ES for £150 with blown bass units. He picked up a pair of replacements from an overseas EBay seller for under £100. He did well out of them. Offered them to me for £350ish and I was tempted. Like I said, on what I heard they were a nice sounding speaker. For me they would be ideal for a second system where you just wanted lowish level music. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2019 13:31:19 GMT
Good luck in finding a pair at a good price Shane. Indeed! Used examples sometimes fetch well over £950. Maybe they hold their re-sale value fairly well. S. |
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Post by macca on Jul 6, 2019 14:04:19 GMT
Retail is almost two grand so it seems they lose about fifty percent. Pretty similar to most desirable speaker brands, I'd say.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 6, 2019 14:08:59 GMT
Love 'em or loathe 'em, very old HL's which used to fetch little more than a ton are now looking almost at BC1 money (£500pr approx). P3's always sounded better than any 3/5A - almost holographic imaging for one thing - but I do accept that some people would find them a bit too safe to listen to, especially if the amp isn't hugely powerful. The brand does seem to like masses of Watts to get them going, even at not high volumes, but the disciples in the far east still use vinyl and valves to power theirs (grilles off of course, even if the hf is better and level-matched with them on) and they won't budge from that mindset without getting deeply offended.
Shane, I doubt you'd find cheap 3ESR's anywhere. I'd probably have more fun myself with some vintage Sonus Faber Concerto's, Signum's or something...
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Post by macca on Jul 6, 2019 14:21:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2019 14:21:33 GMT
I've got a pair (in the unpopular and unfashionable black ash finish). They're not for sale.
There's no point trying to explain/justify 'liking' something to someone whose tastes are entirely different to your own. If you can't convince Macca or Westie to like the Beatles, you've got no chance trying to sell them the virtues of the tiny Harbeths,
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2019 14:25:31 GMT
Cheapest prices I've seen P3ESR sell was around £650-£800. But this is now going a few years back.
The local dealer has a mint demo pair in eucalyptus finish. Has taken £200 off the retail.
S.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2019 14:32:37 GMT
Unfortunately the guy with the Tannoys is a bullshitter. The cone surrounds are shagged and he describes them as being in good condition. |
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Post by macca on Jul 6, 2019 15:04:03 GMT
I've got a pair (in the unpopular and unfashionable black ash finish). They're not for sale. There's no point trying to explain/justify 'liking' something to someone whose tastes are entirely different to your own. If you can't convince Macca or Westie to like the Beatles, you've got no chance trying to sell them the virtues of the tiny Harbeths, I like the Beatles I just think they are massively over-rated. Maybe I was born a decade too late though. |
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2019 11:11:28 GMT
Steve Guttenberg agrees with me about small speakers! Maybe that means I am wrong?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 11:50:04 GMT
Steve Guttenberg agrees with me about small speakers! Maybe that means I am wrong? The only properly small speakers I've lived with are the Usher S520 and original Mission 780SE. Both were good, but I liked the Missions more for their vitality. Neither stayed all that long and were never main speakers. The 780 SE's actually make a decent cheap alternative to the LS3/5a's and there's definitely similarity in the presentation, although the Missions are slightly weightier. The slightly larger Ruark Swordsman Plus speakers I have are on the second system, but somehow they don't sound particularly small, they have a certain 'body' to the sound that disguises their compactness. |
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2019 12:06:53 GMT
Small - I've had Mission 731LE, B&W601, JBL Control 1, Fisher ST70, Wharfedale CRS3 and JPW Mini Monitors. The JPW and JBL are small enough to be classed as 'miniatures' I'd say.
Overall the Missions were the best of that lot, quite refined. The Wharfedales were also good. The JBL have a bit of body to them despite the size. They are a 'fun' listen. The 601 was adequate. The JPW and the Fisher were just piss-poor.
The problem I have with all of them was they could not give 'satisfying' bass depth and presence where the music demanded it or relied on it for full effect. Over time I decided I wasn't prepared to make that compromise anymore, especially when there is just no need to.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 7, 2019 13:26:18 GMT
I can’t live with miniatures any more: I need a big soundstage. My current TC60s sound way bigger than you’d expect. No earth shattering bass but it’s still above what their size would suggest, I’d have more/bigger bass but it’s not critical for me. If it was to create serious room resonance, I’d far rather be without it, because it tends to drown out the stuff that’s more important to me. No way I’d ever have a solely front firing speaker again though.
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2019 14:03:24 GMT
Bass boom in small rooms is mainly due to crap speakers that rely on the port for most of the low end output IMO. And using a turntable as a source (because of the feedback and also because a lot of TT set ups have overblown bass). I've used big 4 way towers in tiny rooms (8'x10') with no issues even with them right back against the walls and only a few inches from the corners. Not to say a big room is not better in every respect, because it is. But a small room is not an intrinsic barrier to using big speakers.
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2019 14:06:52 GMT
I've also noticed as my amplification has improved you get perceptibly less 'bass' and more the sound of the bass instrument coming through. A lot of amps just produce low frequency sludge masquerading as bass and this also causes boominess.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 7, 2019 14:16:36 GMT
Bass boom in small rooms is mainly due to crap speakers that rely on the port for most of the low end output IMO. And using a turntable as a source (because of the feedback and also because a lot of TT set ups have overblown bass). I've used big 4 way towers in tiny rooms (8'x10') with no issues even with them right back against the walls and only a few inches from the corners. Not to say a big room is not better in every respect, because it is. But a small room is not an intrinsic barrier to using big speakers. 99% of ports utterly suck. |
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2019 14:33:34 GMT
90% of speakers suck. Cheap drivers in flimsy cabs with a rudimentary crossover. Even the bigger ones mostly rely on the port for output below 100Hz. The more hype around them the worse they probably are. I wouldn't put Harbeth in that group though. They are a quality product.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 14:54:04 GMT
Not meaning to be trolling. I sometimes often wonder how much the Harbeth P3ESR cost in materials/parts etc. RRP is slightly under £2k in standard finish. Then you also have the 40th anniversary version at over £2k!
S.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 7, 2019 15:11:48 GMT
Bass boom in small rooms is mainly due to crap speakers that rely on the port for most of the low end output IMO. And using a turntable as a source (because of the feedback and also because a lot of TT set ups have overblown bass). I've used big 4 way towers in tiny rooms (8'x10') with no issues even with them right back against the walls and only a few inches from the corners. Not to say a big room is not better in every respect, because it is. But a small room is not an intrinsic barrier to using big speakers. I have to challenge that!
I've heard Isobariks boom in smaller rooms - if you know Isobariks, bass is usually quite good even with squidgy vinyl sources... mine didn't ever boom though.
The ATC20ASL pros had cast rigid sealed cabinets plus thick mdf baffles, no added bass eq, sounded great in our former living room which was a bit too narrow (25' x 10.5') and still the mid bass humped up with purely digital sources and was made worse because the size and even the added eq available on the active crossover didn't bolster up the sub 70Hz frequencies properly! I stress mid bass, because in a large speaker, the very low frequencies won't be reproduced as well in a small room, but neighbours a few feet further away will experience it in all its glory as heppened to me  Mind you, the lower bass does add a 'presence' if it's done right. My ATC 100A's humped up at 120hz badly in the listening seat - room around 12' x 14' i recall (but they were 'flat' from 40hz to 400hz in free space and these measured twice at the factory) but if I moved to one side, the bass flattened out perfectly (I've got a sound pressure meter somewhere in the loft, i'll have to dig it back out and 'test' the Harbeths in room)... The 100A's may well have had ports, but these were never tuned to augment a small bass driver, but were tuned to support the bass driver at resonance - the current issue 100 ports are huge and much longer to work with the SL drivers and when I discovered that my pair (now sold) needed work on the port as well, they ended up taking another trip to the factory for the work to be done.
Prices are daft sadly, but the current PMC slimmer models may well work well here, as the price paid for 'extension' in the lower octaves seems to be cancellations in the line at mid bass frequencies, right where my rooms here take off... All the responses taken independently on PMC's slimmer models show this aspect - a dip at 150hz or so and this may just work possibly. I've thought often of your TLS50's macca, but the bass on these was never quite as good as the larger ones I loved so much, but maybe we didn't give them proper credit as the large TLS80 and RSPM's sold easily back then (and the RSPM IV was an awesome speaker at the time when used with mid 70's spec KEF bass and mid drivers, despite all I say about the B110 from the early 80's onwards..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 15:18:14 GMT
Bass boom in small rooms is mainly due to crap speakers that rely on the port for most of the low end output IMO. And using a turntable as a source (because of the feedback and also because a lot of TT set ups have overblown bass). I've used big 4 way towers in tiny rooms (8'x10') with no issues even with them right back against the walls and only a few inches from the corners. Not to say a big room is not better in every respect, because it is. But a small room is not an intrinsic barrier to using big speakers. 99% of ports utterly suck. Ooh, I don't know. Ramos Pinto RP20 is quite tasty. |
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2019 15:37:34 GMT
Bass boom in small rooms is mainly due to crap speakers that rely on the port for most of the low end output IMO. And using a turntable as a source (because of the feedback and also because a lot of TT set ups have overblown bass). I've used big 4 way towers in tiny rooms (8'x10') with no issues even with them right back against the walls and only a few inches from the corners. Not to say a big room is not better in every respect, because it is. But a small room is not an intrinsic barrier to using big speakers. I have to challenge that!
I've heard Isobariks boom in smaller rooms - if you know Isobariks, bass is usually quite good even with squidgy vinyl sources... mine didn't ever boom though.
The ATC20ASL pros had cast rigid sealed cabinets plus thick mdf baffles, no added bass eq, sounded great in our former living room which was a bit too narrow (25' x 10.5') and still the mid bass humped up with purely digital sources and was made worse because the size and even the added eq available on the active crossover didn't bolster up the sub 70Hz frequencies properly! I stress mid bass, because in a large speaker, the very low frequencies won't be reproduced as well in a small room, but neighbours a few feet further away will experience it in all its glory as heppened to me Mind you, the lower bass does add a 'presence' if it's done right. My ATC 100A's humped up at 120hz badly in the listening seat - room around 12' x 14' i recall (but they were 'flat' from 40hz to 400hz in free space and these measured twice at the factory) but if I moved to one side, the bass flattened out perfectly (I've got a sound pressure meter somewhere in the loft, i'll have to dig it back out and 'test' the Harbeths in room)... The 100A's may well have had ports, but these were never tuned to augment a small bass driver, but were tuned to support the bass driver at resonance - the current issue 100 ports are huge and much longer to work with the SL drivers and when I discovered that my pair (now sold) needed work on the port as well, they ended up taking another trip to the factory for the work to be done.
Prices are daft sadly, but the current PMC slimmer models may well work well here, as the price paid for 'extension' in the lower octaves seems to be cancellations in the line at mid bass frequencies, right where my rooms here take off... All the responses taken independently on PMC's slimmer models show this aspect - a dip at 150hz or so and this may just work possibly. I've thought often of your TLS50's macca, but the bass on these was never quite as good as the larger ones I loved so much, but maybe we didn't give them proper credit as the large TLS80 and RSPM's sold easily back then (and the RSPM IV was an awesome speaker at the time when used with mid 70's spec KEF bass and mid drivers, despite all I say about the B110 from the early 80's onwards..
I thought someone would You've got to take Fletcher-Munson into account when comparing speaker measurements to what you hear though. That big lift in the bass won't be as big to your ears and that small rise in the mid/top will sound brighter than you expect because we're far more sensitive to HF than LF. Hence the 'House Curve' with boosted LF and declining HF is what most people prefer. I have zero experience with Isobariks so can't comment except to say the design is so weird it could create a multitude of problems is a multitude of rooms. I also suspect they need much better amplification than Linn made at the time. I'd expect even a big ATC to be fine in a small room. Ofc you've got to keep the levels down in a small room or all bets are off. But with a speaker that has some proper presence in the bass you don't need to play loud to get satisfying bass. I don't like those slim PMCs, only the proper pro standmount jobs. The domestic ones are overpriced and not much to write home about. I would like to get the TLS50 married up with the Krell and really see what they can do. See if it improves bass quality. There's certainly enough quantity. Not sure I would recommend them for a small room but as I said a lot of that low end sludge that causes boom is from the amplifier and the turntable. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 7, 2019 16:09:07 GMT
My big ATC's were MARVELLOUS in my small room at reasonable volumes, plonked in corners and on a suspended chipboard floor as well. I could forget the mechanics of music reproduction as I said so many times. I miss them hugely, especially after hearing how much 'better' they are today at lower volumes when the originals collapsed the sound back in the boxes (never an issue in a full-scale pro monitoring environment).
I mentioned the domestic PMC Fact's purely as the low-mid-upper bass characteristics would suit *this* room well I think. I agree the prices are mad and the drivers not that expensive, but they sell and powners love them as Naimie people do their amps...
Once you get the Krell back (is it 'done' yet and working properly?), I'd love to hear your thoughts with the TLS50's using digital music sources. So long since I heard th elarger IMF's, although my original IMF Compacts do sound delightful in the mids in terms of intelligibility and they're not as 'relentless-explicit-monitor' as the 'Doc-Mod' B&W's sounded here.
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2019 16:39:17 GMT
The parts for the Krell arrived last week so hopefully we are on the home stretch.
Really surprised that you like those PMC Fact speakers though. I don't think they are crap but for that kind of money there are so many preferable options.
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Mind you, the lower bass does add a 'presence' if it's done right. My ATC 100A's humped up at 120hz badly in the listening seat - room around 12' x 14' i recall (but they were 'flat' from 40hz to 400hz in free space and these measured twice at the factory) but if I moved to one side, the bass flattened out perfectly (I've got a sound pressure meter somewhere in the loft, i'll have to dig it back out and 'test' the Harbeths in room)... The 100A's may well have had ports, but these were never tuned to augment a small bass driver, but were tuned to support the bass driver at resonance - the current issue 100 ports are huge and much longer to work with the SL drivers and when I discovered that my pair (now sold) needed work on the port as well, they ended up taking another trip to the factory for the work to be done.