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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 16:16:15 GMT
Anyone else from here ever go there? I joined yesterday. Most members on that site are the total opposite to us. They take measurements very seriously rather than trusting their own ears etc. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.phpS. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 2, 2019 16:28:03 GMT
Anyone else from here ever go there? I joined yesterday. Most members on that site are the total opposite to us. They take measurements very seriously rather than trusting their own ears etc. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.phpS. DSJR has posted a few links. Not exactly my cuppa tbh. Worth a visit for comedy I suppose. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 2, 2019 16:28:11 GMT
Anyone else from here ever go there? I joined yesterday. Most members on that site are the total opposite to us. They take measurements very seriously rather than trusting their own ears etc. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.phpS. DSJR has posted a few links. Not exactly my cuppa tbh. Worth a visit for comedy I suppose. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 16:59:24 GMT
Most of them hate Schiit Audio gear. The pricey Yggdrasil V2 DAC didn't do well according to Amir's measurements.
S.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 17:11:20 GMT
Anyone else from here ever go there? I joined yesterday. Most members on that site are the total opposite to us. They take measurements very seriously rather than trusting their own ears etc. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.phpS. DSJR has posted a few links. Not exactly my cuppa tbh. Worth a visit for comedy I suppose. You only have to glance through the 'what cables do you use in your systems?' thread to get the idea. Anybody who trusts their ears is going to get short shrift there. |
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 2, 2019 17:45:06 GMT
Yeh it's a good place to separate the wheat from the chafe. Sort of hydrogen audio lite.
Amir's not as good at his measurements as he might like to be. He often misses stuff.
I want high fidelity, not a house sound from my kit, so I align with their numbers first approach.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2019 18:06:15 GMT
It's chaff. Sweaty underpants chafe!  |
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Post by antonio on Jul 3, 2019 4:30:43 GMT
Not for me.
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Post by macca on Jul 3, 2019 6:27:26 GMT
Anyone else from here ever go there? I joined yesterday. Most members on that site are the total opposite to us. They take measurements very seriously rather than trusting their own ears etc. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.phpS. I'm not a member but do read there. It's a good site. Measurements should be taken seriously and you shouldn't trust your ears. At least not to draw technical conclusions. You can trust them as to what you like and don't like but if you want to know why you like or don't like it, that's when you need measurements. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 6:52:40 GMT
Measurements are good. I am 6ft tall and weigh 12 1/2 stone.
That's as far as it goes.
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Post by macca on Jul 3, 2019 7:10:07 GMT
Hi-fi would not exist if it wasn't for measurements, and the application of measurements. Manufacturers like to keep the punters in the dark so that they can tell them any old Sh#t and they'll believe it. And, sadly, it works!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 8:02:16 GMT
Hi-fi would not exist if it wasn't for measurements, and the application of measurements. Manufacturers like to keep the punters in the dark so that they can tell them any old Sh#t and they'll believe it. And, sadly, it works! I gave up worrying about frequency response, s/n ratios, distortion and the rest of it many years ago. Let the designers and makers concern themselves with all that, I just listen to the gear. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 8:27:42 GMT
One thing the measurement approach may do is help those of us with stingy attitudes find an overperforming piece of kit and avoid the cheap duds. His DAC assessment is quite interesting, there is one he uses especially because it doesn't reject jitter very well, but he's verdict on the chromecast was that even though its quite a jittery output, any competent DAC rejects it with no trouble. And he has measurements to prove it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 8:58:42 GMT
I like what they do there TBF. They take it to the other extreme and somewhere in the middle lies the truth.
I like a measurement that proves what I hear and generally I seem to get it right so I'm all for a set of measurements with the gear.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 3, 2019 10:04:14 GMT
Personally I don’t care about measurements. I also think there is a danger of forming assumptions that limit your choices, Measurements of gear are only a small part of what you hear, even if they are valid. What about the other equipment, cables, the room, your ears, your brain, your musical tastes?
Audio Innovations amps apparently measured horribly. The 300 in particular was a measurement distaster and yet I loved mine,
All that said, I don’t care what others do with measurements as it has no bearing on me, my choices and my tastes. I’m very much “live and let live”.
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Post by macca on Jul 3, 2019 11:24:42 GMT
Hi-fi would not exist if it wasn't for measurements, and the application of measurements. Manufacturers like to keep the punters in the dark so that they can tell them any old Sh#t and they'll believe it. And, sadly, it works! I gave up worrying about frequency response, s/n ratios, distortion and the rest of it many years ago. Let the designers and makers concern themselves with all that, I just listen to the gear. But what about when the designer/maker is trying to con you by making pseudo-technical claims?
I have noticed that even the most subjective enthusiast likes to back up his impressions with some techno- jargon. e.g 'This DAC is the best I have ever heard and it is because the jitter is so low' or similar bollocks. They can never leave it at 'This is the best I ever heard.' No-one would have a problem with that.
Then when you point out that their technical deduction is bollocks they revert to saying that the measurements don't matter. Or they are wrong. or that 'science doesn't know everything.' It does get a bit tiresome.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 11:55:36 GMT
The fact is that good measurements do not necessarily mean a pleasing sound. It may be an objectively 'better' sound, but that doesn't translate to enjoyment.
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Post by macca on Jul 3, 2019 12:13:30 GMT
Very true. 'Best sounding' though, is subjective, and so opinion as to what is the 'best sounding' varies from individual to individual.
Regrettably a lot of people think that the best sounding (to them) must also be the best measuring. So when the measurements of what they like are shown to be poor they have to make up all sorts of excuses like 'You're not measuring the right things.'
Personally I find the sound of gear that makes everything sound wonderful gets on my tits after a while. Croft is a good example. Likewise Audionote. I prefer to listen to the recording, not the system. But each to his own.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 13:25:42 GMT
Anyone else from here ever go there? I joined yesterday. Most members on that site are the total opposite to us. They take measurements very seriously rather than trusting their own ears etc. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.phpS. I'm not a member but do read there. It's a good site. Measurements should be taken seriously and you shouldn't trust your ears. At least not to draw technical conclusions. You can trust them as to what you like and don't like but if you want to know why you like or don't like it, that's when you need measurements. Then bugger off and go join their universe. S. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 13:29:08 GMT
By the way Macca, I'm only joking.
S.
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Post by macca on Jul 3, 2019 14:16:52 GMT
I guessed. Actually I'm sort of in-between universes. Anytime anyone starts talking about the 'One True Way' I run for cover. 'Hi-fi Cults', that could be a good thread. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2019 14:26:02 GMT
I guessed. Actually I'm sort of in-between universes. Anytime anyone starts talking about the 'One True Way' I run for cover. 'Hi-fi Cults', that could be a good thread.Cor. Don't say that! You'll get all the 'flat earthers' and Royd owners going!!  |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 4, 2019 9:21:06 GMT
Actually I'm sort of in-between universes. Me too now I suppose, now seeing things begin to come full circle.
Measurements can be as much mis-interpreted as sonic findings I think but modern developments to me are exciting as 'D' amp technology is maturing, offering very powerful amps which run cool and offering all distortion figures almost as good as dacs and orders of magnitude better than a good class ab amp, let alone subjective favourites which are so often rather worse measuring again*. Fascinating to me how as Naim designs move on**, how much more 'normal' they're beginning to sound now as the performance on paper improves. The over forward hard-hitting tones of yore all but banished to history ime and leaving a pleasant if still 'forward' quality that's not fatiguing as it once could be.
* In my case, the popular NVA amp models measure terribly but can 'sound' quite enchanting if set up right - and then I saw the performance of a Quad 405-2, which really isn't any better in most aspects. A CB era Naim wasn't much better again, although all three are an order of magnitude better than many exalted valve confections which *look* so beautiful and which years ago, the 'Choice reviewer used to make all kinds of excuses for, probably because of the exalted arena these amps occupied.
Things really are moving on and away from niche audiophile markets and I'm excited for the audio future. You don't even need expensive foo cables for these products to work best either unless you feel they enhance your personal musical pleasure. I've done a few 'blind-ish' tests here in recent times and I've been shocked how easily my/our minds are fooled in unmatched 'sighted' comparisons, so forgive me for leaning more to objectivism these days...
** Something becoming painfully obvious to me so late on life is how much R&D can cost, let alone running a factory and production facility. Naim is seen as obscenely priced, but they're still around, putting substantial funding into developing their products (currently streaming and admittedly beautifully neat sounding lifestyle products like the Muso 2) and basically staying around...
[crawling back under my stone]
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2019 9:33:17 GMT
Actually I'm sort of in-between universes. Me too now I suppose, now seeing things begin to come full circle.
Measurements can be as much mis-interpreted as sonic findings I think but modern developments to me are exciting as 'D' amp technology is maturing, offering very powerful amps which run cool and offering all distortion figures almost as good as dacs and orders of magnitude better than a good class ab amp, let alone subjective favourites which are so often rather worse measuring again*. Fascinating to me how as Naim designs move on, how much more 'normal' they're beginning to sound now as the performance on paper improves. The over forward hard-hitting tones of yore all but banished to history ime and leaving a pleasant if still 'forward' quality that's not fatiguing as it once could be.
* In my case, the popular NVA amp models measure terribly but can 'sound' quite enchanting if set up right - and then I saw the performance of a Quad 405-2, which really isn't any better in most aspects. A CB era Naim wasn't much better again, although all three are an order of magnitude better than many exalted valve confections which *look* so beautiful and which years ago, the 'Choice reviewer used to make all kinds of excuses for, probably because of the exalted arena these amps occupied.
Things really are moving on and away from niche audiophile markets and I'm excited for the audio future. You don't even need expensive foo cables for these products to work best either unless you feel they enhance your personal musical pleasure. I've done a few 'blind-ish' tests here in recent times and I've been shocked how easily our minds are fooled, so forgive me for leaning more to objectivism these days...
[crawling back under my stone]
Spot on with your comments about the upcoming provenance of Class D. An area of specific interest to me at the minute |
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Post by pauld on Jul 4, 2019 9:55:39 GMT
I couldn't think of anywhere or anything worse than where you would decide how good a hifi systems is only on measurements. I honestly couldn't care less how something measures, it is how it sounds that interests me.
Reminds me of a time when I was at a Hifi Show a few years in Brighton and someone was trying to convince me that the speakers he had designed were dropping to certain bass levels. Well they may well have done from a measurements perspective, but they sounded like thin, tiny speakers with zero depth of bass. We played a Yello track and they just fell apart.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 4, 2019 11:38:05 GMT
Speakers and the room interface are a different thing entirely, an art form in themselves and MASSIVELY more awry and distorted than any modern solid state amp or even a vinyl source - eek! I heard some £30k Dynaudio speakers last week, which have had a huge amount of money put into their design from drivers (tweeter design especially) right through to the cabs, bass loading and testing facilities. The sound was 'for me,' typically 'Dynaudio cold as ice' and they actually gave me listener fatigue after half an hour or so in the setup demonstrated (by the manufacturer's staff). Others in the listening group were raving about the detail, imagery and definition. A tweak to the response here and there may well have transformed them perhaps? At least the sound was so totally opposite to the thunderous dull noises I'm getting here it made me realise my ears aren't perhaps so bad after all  Amps - these days - are a different kettle of fish entirely imo and it seems a number of audiophool myths are being severely tested these days and other things all but ignored in the past (amp output impedance and performance at clipping point for example) being taken more notice of as these are important when listening - the former as a high output impedance offered by most valve amps can affect the response of a typical 4 - 6 - 8 ohm passive speaker (although 'damping factor' as such isn't as important I gather now) and the latter audibly when a marginal-power amp is used at home as many of us use. |
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Post by macca on Jul 4, 2019 12:12:40 GMT
I couldn't think of anywhere or anything worse than where you would decide how good a hifi systems is only on measurements. That's not what measurements are about though. What you like is always what you like regardless of how it measures. Some people prefer to have a near perfectly measuring system because that is the only way to guarantee that what you are hearing is the recording, not the system. At least to the extent that is physically possible. For those people having a good sound is irrelevant. They want accurate. If it is accurate then they are happy, they don't care what it sounds like.
That may sound crazy until you consider that:
1) The vast majority of recordings are made by experienced professionals on very good equipment and will sound good through an accurate system.
2) Those who pursue the alternative approach of having the system colour the sound with its own foibles are often to be seen complaining about the quality of recordings and end up only playing recordings that flatter the system - as anyone who has been to a show and heard a SET/horn system (the extreme example) will testify.
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Post by pauld on Jul 4, 2019 12:28:46 GMT
Yeah, get your point but still think it is absolutely crazy. We are all wired differently I suppose!
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Post by macca on Jul 4, 2019 12:41:31 GMT
Very much so. I have a foot in both camps. I mean it may be the case that all aimplifiers sound the same when used within their spec and blind tested and level matched* but I still want my Krell back as I simply don't enjoy my music as much when using my other amplifiers.
(*I actually suspect this is NOT true).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2019 13:21:23 GMT
Very much so. I have a foot in both camps. I mean it may be the case that all aimplifiers sound the same when used within their spec and blind tested and level matched* but I still want my Krell back as I simply don't enjoy my music as much when using my other amplifiers. (*I actually suspect this is NOT true). I think the Achilles heel of the measurement approach is that you generally only get a very simplified view (the amp's power into a simple 8ohm/4ohm/2ohm resistive load for example at 1KHz) which is NOT how any pair of speakers behaves. So whilst a pair of amps may have the same basic measurements, how the behave when strapped to a challenging pair of speakers and fed with a source that varies in frequency will be quite different. |
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