Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 24, 2019 14:50:54 GMT
I’ve seen the day I would’ve bought hair shirt kit but never poorly made or unreliable bits, These days I want stuff to,look and feel like it was made commercially and I’m not willing to be making compromises in order to compensate for lazy/bad/thoughtless design.
Here are some things I’ve tolerated previously that I wouldn’t now.
1. Townshend silicone trough. Utterly impractical, messy and arguably bad sonically. Never again.
2. Speakers that demand top spikes to work properly. Buy some lovely wood veneers than make the bottoms look like a dartboard? No thanks.
3. Amps where your warranty is voided if you don’t use the makers cable. There are plenty great sounding amps out there with no such limitations. Besides, it’s unreasonable to refuse warranty unless another purchase is made.
4. Decks with class a power supplies taht cook themselves to death, or plinths that sag. If other designs sound as good or better and don’t have these problems you need to redesign your product.
5. Amps with a headphone socket that requires unplugging speakers. WTF? Another case of the designer expecting the consumer to make all the adjustments. It’s only a switch ffs.
6. Slot loading CD players. Way to go scratching your music collection. Cheap computer shite doesn’t belong in proper hifi. Stop being so cheap and build something better.
7. Items you can’t site close to anything else. Again, why buy such things when there are loads of great sounding bits that don’t need this molly-coddling. Another case of lazy/arrogant design.
8. Cables you can’t bend without breaking them. Again, plenty ones you can so why bother?
9. Arms with no lift lower device. Yes my Aro I’m taking about you!
10. Companies who don’t keep spares for at least 5 years. You e shown utter contempt for your customers, you don’t deserve another penny and I hope you end up paying by going under.
Plenty more I’m sure. I want stuff that looks like it was made professionally, works out of the box and doesn’t expect me to pussy-foot around it’s foibles. I don’t really care if anyone or everyone agrees/disagrees, it’s my approach these days and I’m happy to be able to put it across.
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Post by savvypaul on Jun 24, 2019 15:01:54 GMT
Most of what you describe above are merely 'compromises' rather than poor workmanship.
If I am presented with intellectual purpose and excellent sound quality at a great price, I'm happy to accept a few such compromises...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 24, 2019 15:09:19 GMT
I see most of them as design arrogance.Given that there is so much great kit out there that doesn’t have the end user jumping through hoops, it’s easy to avoid. Of course, some folk indulge in self flagellation. That’s their choice. Others (and this was me thirty years ago) saw a kudos in these “sacrifices”. They brought with them an image of being one of the cognoscenti. Incidentally, the makers of decks with saggy tops and exploding PSUs even hung that label on his decks at one point. Great sounding they were too, but not so great when they sagged or stopped rotating,
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Post by savvypaul on Jun 24, 2019 15:50:07 GMT
Does your new turntable have auto speed change or do you have to move the belt manually? Does the arm have auto return?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 15:54:02 GMT
I think it depends how much performance you get. There is a lot of boutique kit where a significant proportion of the price is in the case, fancy plugs, knobs etc.. If I can get something that performs really well but is a bit ugly, I'd probably go that route. A lot of the list above is poor engineering in my eyes. I'd never knowingly buy unreliable kit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 16:48:23 GMT
I see most of them as design arrogance.Given that there is so much great kit out there that doesn’t have the end user jumping through hoops, it’s easy to avoid. Of course, some folk indulge in self flagellation. That’s their choice. Others (and this was me thirty years ago) saw a kudos in these “sacrifices”. They brought with them an image of being one of the cognoscenti. Incidentally, the makers of decks with saggy tops and exploding PSUs even hung that label on his decks at one point. Great sounding they were too, but not so great when they sagged or stopped rotating, I would concur with your Point #3, smacks of more than a whif of design divisiveness, stil, perhaps a mute point now. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 16:53:19 GMT
I'm starting to get angry about unshielded interconnects. DNM & Nordost being a strong example. I just want to plug in and play!
S.
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Post by macca on Jun 24, 2019 16:58:42 GMT
I'm starting to get angry about unshielded interconnects. DNM & Nordost being a strong example. I just want to plug in and play! S. It's only an issue with a turntable. And even then it often isn't an issue at all. I had SSP on phono stage to pre amp, they were unshielded. No problems and when I did swap to a shielded interconnect just to see if it improved anything, it didn't. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 24, 2019 17:19:24 GMT
I’m uismg unshielded cable but the tight twisting be a factor in rejecting interference, it’s fine with turntables. I do agree that shielded is an advantage. If I could find a screened cable that sounded anywhere near as good, I’d change,
Captive mains leads piss me off though. Especially those ratty two core cables. In fact I hate those things period. Figure 8 mains leads are horrid too.
My NVA A40s initially lost their place in my system because of their 4 captive mains leads. Dusting meant faffing about with multiple mains leads and as they attracted dust like magnets, I got fed up.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 24, 2019 17:22:21 GMT
I see most of them as design arrogance.Given that there is so much great kit out there that doesn’t have the end user jumping through hoops, it’s easy to avoid. Of course, some folk indulge in self flagellation. That’s their choice. Others (and this was me thirty years ago) saw a kudos in these “sacrifices”. They brought with them an image of being one of the cognoscenti. Incidentally, the makers of decks with saggy tops and exploding PSUs even hung that label on his decks at one point. Great sounding they were too, but not so great when they sagged or stopped rotating, I would concur with your Point #3, smacks of more than a whif of design divisiveness, stil, perhaps a mute point now. I remember taking Kevin Edwards to task and refusing to buy Exposure when he took over and did this very thing, His amps sounded better with Linn cable which was lower capacitance than Exposure. |
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Post by savvypaul on Jun 24, 2019 19:38:11 GMT
Dusting meant faffing about with multiple mains leads and as they attracted dust like magnets, I got fed up. Dusting is for fannies... |
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Post by macca on Jun 24, 2019 20:40:31 GMT
What's dusting?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 20:54:18 GMT
I have heard of it, but not enquired further.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 21:48:19 GMT
I've never been bored enough to dust.
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Post by antonio on Jun 25, 2019 4:48:39 GMT
I’ve seen the day I would’ve bought hair shirt kit but never poorly made or unreliable bits, These days I want stuff to,look and feel like it was made commercially and I’m not willing to be making compromises in order to compensate for lazy/bad/thoughtless design. Here are some things I’ve tolerated previously that I wouldn’t now. 1. Townshend silicone trough. Utterly impractical, messy and arguably bad sonically. Never again. 2. Speakers that demand top spikes to work properly. Buy some lovely wood veneers than make the bottoms look like a dartboard? No thanks. 3. Amps where your warranty is voided if you don’t use the makers cable. There are plenty great sounding amps out there with no such limitations. Besides, it’s unreasonable to refuse warranty unless another purchase is made. 4. Decks with class a power supplies taht cook themselves to death, or plinths that sag. If other designs sound as good or better and don’t have these problems you need to redesign your product. 5. Amps with a headphone socket that requires unplugging speakers. WTF? Another case of the designer expecting the consumer to make all the adjustments. It’s only a switch ffs. 6. Slot loading CD players. Way to go scratching your music collection. Cheap computer shite doesn’t belong in proper hifi. Stop being so cheap and build something better. 7. Items you can’t site close to anything else. Again, why buy such things when there are loads of great sounding bits that don’t need this molly-coddling. Another case of lazy/arrogant design. 8. Cables you can’t bend without breaking them. Again, plenty ones you can so why bother? 9. Arms with no lift lower device. Yes my Aro I’m taking about you! 10. Companies who don’t keep spares for at least 5 years. You e shown utter contempt for your customers, you don’t deserve another penny and I hope you end up paying by going under. Plenty more I’m sure. I want stuff that looks like it was made professionally, works out of the box and doesn’t expect me to pussy-foot around it’s foibles. I don’t really care if anyone or everyone agrees/disagrees, it’s my approach these days and I’m happy to be able to put it across. I can understand the points you've made but:- 2. Who looks underneath their speakers? 3. I believe more manufacturers should recommend or make speaker cable matched to their amps. 4. I'll agree plinth sag should not happen, but did the designer realise this would happen in 10 years time. 5. If you are talking about power supplies, keeping these as far away from sensitive gear makes sense to me. Is it really inconvenient to put something nearer the top of your rack and something else nearer the bottom? You also mention captive leads, I like em, provided the lead is of decent quality, no problem to dust for me. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2019 5:20:11 GMT
I agree with the above especially the power supply bit. Gear that has aluminum cases can still react with each other as aluminum does the root of F#ck all for shielding electromagnetic interference. Big ass transformers are usually the culprit. Stuff with small transformers are not so bad.
I did an experiment a while back which was fairly easy as my gear was laid out on 2ft sq sheets of chipboard. Even when the transformers were sited so that there was no hum to start with, moving them even further away from sensitive circuitry or other transformers yielded improvements in the music.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 25, 2019 6:14:36 GMT
One more: Gear that has to be left on to sound good. If you can’t design a good sound from the off, you should go back to the drawing board. Once again it’s the designer getting the user to make all the adjustments because he’s not competent enough or too arrogant to meet the user’s needs.
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Post by savvypaul on Jun 25, 2019 6:31:29 GMT
In 40 years I've not heard an S/S amplifier that didn't sound better for being left on.
Wouldn't do it with valve amps but would switch them on at least 20 minutes before listening.
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Post by macca on Jun 25, 2019 6:34:50 GMT
One more: Gear that has to be left on to sound good. I don't believe there is any such thing. I know some punters think it is the case and I know some manufacturers pander to it but that means nothing. I'd bet any money that no-one could tell the difference between a system that has been on 24/7 for six months and an identical one started from cold. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 25, 2019 6:52:46 GMT
In 40 years I've not heard an S/S amplifier that didn't sound better for being left on. Wouldn't do it with valve amps but would switch them on at least 20 minutes before listening. I can live with 20 mins, Left on 24/7 is where I draw the line. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2019 8:26:55 GMT
my valve amps sound noticeably better after they have been running for 20 or so minutes, i'm assuming everything is up to temperature and settled. My SS amp sounds the same from the second it's turned on until it goes off - only the weird cap discharge noise changes based on how long its been running |
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Post by savvypaul on Jun 25, 2019 8:30:52 GMT
my valve amps sound noticeably better after they have been running for 20 or so minutes, i'm assuming everything is up to temperature and settled. My SS amp sounds the same from the second it's turned on until it goes off - only the weird cap discharge noise changes based on how long its been running Leave the SS amp on for a couple of weeks... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2019 10:18:57 GMT
my valve amps sound noticeably better after they have been running for 20 or so minutes, i'm assuming everything is up to temperature and settled. My SS amp sounds the same from the second it's turned on until it goes off - only the weird cap discharge noise changes based on how long its been running Leave the SS amp on for a couple of weeks... I have another SS amp that I used to leave on. Made no difference. Was the comment to see what noises it made then? I'd rather not  i suspect the magic pixie smoke would escape... |
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Post by macca on Jun 25, 2019 11:34:09 GMT
my valve amps sound noticeably better after they have been running for 20 or so minutes, i'm assuming everything is up to temperature and settled. My SS amp sounds the same from the second it's turned on until it goes off - only the weird cap discharge noise changes based on how long its been running Leave the SS amp on for a couple of weeks... I used to leave my Linn LK100 on all the time, now it needs re-capping  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 25, 2019 11:55:48 GMT
Products without an on/off switch! Trichord Dino for instance. Utterly stupid design flaw.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2019 12:19:30 GMT
Products without an on/off switch! Trichord Dino for instance. Utterly stupid design flaw. Switches on the back piss me off too. |
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Post by macca on Jun 25, 2019 12:25:33 GMT
Blue LEDs. Can't stand them.
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Post by antonio on Jun 25, 2019 14:59:31 GMT
Products without an on/off switch! Trichord Dino for instance. Utterly stupid design flaw. I think the designer maybe giving you a hint. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 25, 2019 15:30:35 GMT
I must say I regard many suspended subchassis decks as hair shirt and totally unacceptable. Anything that wobbles all over like an LP12 is ludicrous, even more so when you have to fork out to get the thing set up regularly. IMO suspended decks always sound worse anyway.
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Post by antonio on Jun 25, 2019 16:17:29 GMT
I must say I regard many suspended subchassis decks as hair shirt and totally unacceptable. Anything that wobbles all over like an LP12 is ludicrous, even more so when you have to fork out to get the thing set up regularly. IMO suspended decks always sound worse anyway. I don't know about sounding worse, but they are a PITA. I think I've got my PT platter running nice and level, then on goes a 180gm and the platter starts to catch. "> |
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i suspect the magic pixie smoke would escape... 