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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 11:37:57 GMT
This seems to be a thing of the past when a so called high end company made branded entry level kit at an reasonable price.
I am going to use one example.
Audio Research. in particular pre Amps.
They marketed two very good pre's at one stage that retailed at aprox $2,000 the SP 16 and its successor the SP 17. They do not market any thing in that price range any more the prices are insane.
I have run both these pre amps on my kit against their highly regarded Reference 3 and 5.
This might set the cat among'st the pidgins, I could not in all honesty justify the asking price considering the quite honestly no appreciable difference.
By this I mean the wow factor, the wow you get when you replace for example the Rotel pre I had before with the SP 16 it was night and day no contest, Rotel gone, felt like binning the Rothell POS.
I take every opportunity to listen to all sorts of kit, I am able to demo a lot of kit which is quite frankly way out of my price range on my set up. I have yet to come away with, "I must have this running around in my head". In fact 9 times out of ten the kit is disappointing, or at best only marginally better than what I have. I listen to what I have, then connect up some mega expensive piece of kit, then think am I realy going to spend this sort of money on something that I would not notice the improvement unless I bothered to connect my critical listening ear.
I have for all intents and purpose put those ears on the shelf when I listen to music.
I do have a good ear, "not bragging", when at the demos I am able to spot all the Audiophile niceties, for want of a better word, and my opinion is always asked for and appreciated.
Now in all fairness, I do not have the money to splash out on fancy kit, if I had that sort of money I would probably be spending it on "Fast Women and Slow Horses" instead of kit. That would soon either put me in goal the hospital or the morgue very quick.
So every time I fire up the valves I say a little word of thanks. "thank you for allowing me the opportunity, on my limited budget of enjoying my music without chasing my tail on the box swapping merry go round, or some Tart down the alley".
Money does certainly not buy satisfaction, like all mind altering substances (money with out a doubt is mind altering) only leads to wanting more, and where the hell is the satisfaction in wanting.
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Post by macca on Jun 3, 2019 12:04:11 GMT
You're right of course but I suspect these days they don't want to devalue their brand by offering entry level products.
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Post by nonuffin on Jun 3, 2019 12:20:27 GMT
There was a time when you could climb the greasy pole of upgrading through a single manufacturer's range like Audio Research, but they are only interested in emptying your wallet as quick as possible these days. That is because the market for hi-fi is shrinking rapidly with each passing year. Go to any show and look at the age of the attendees to see that the overwhelming majority are aged 50+ with hardly a younger person there. The youngsters are happy to listen to junk music on their phones and see no value at all in spending thousands of pounds on a full home system, so the manufacturers really do rely heavily on the older demographic to keep them afloat. This situation is also fuelling the huge increase in values in used components, because the brand new items have such absurdly high price tags.
The manufacturers are mostly to blame for this diminishing interest because not one of them actually bothers to target and educate the youngsters by good marketing, so that fact and the lack of true affordable starter systems means that once the oldsters are out of the hobby there is going to be an enormous chasm that will be too late to fill with new blood from the young generation because of the current neglect.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 13:27:28 GMT
Classing $2000 for a single component as Entry Level is precisely why HiFi is a dead duck. $2000 for an entire system is not entry level to the vast majority of people. Add on the fact that houses are getting too small to accommodate a seperates system with proper speakers and you have an ever decreasing pool of potential customers. So they'll flog overpriced kit to the small (but growing) pool of people who buy with their wallets and not their ears.
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Post by dsjr on Jun 3, 2019 13:58:15 GMT
How do you define 'entry level high end?'
Audio Research may be High End, but many of the models they've ever made to me sound like sugary sweet warm toned processors, rather than acoustically transparent preamps. YMMV here.
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Post by macca on Jun 3, 2019 14:00:40 GMT
Houses are getting too small?
I know loads of people including myself who live in tiny terrace houses and have massive speakers. Some have multiple systems all with massive speakers. Don't buy the 'lack of space' argument, sorry.
Also the 'age at shows' thing. 30 years ago at shows almost everyone was over 55.
Bowling green near me, no-one on that green is under 65. But 30 years ago when I used to walk past it no-one on that green was under 65. Are they the same old people 30 years on? No, of course not. They are long gone and a new generation of old people have taken their place.
Same with hifi shows.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 14:04:04 GMT
you may be willing to use up a sizeable chunk of your house for big speakers but most people aren't (says me with 12" tannoys...)
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Post by macca on Jun 3, 2019 14:18:30 GMT
Tannoys you can stick in the alcoves, take up less space than most speakers.
The truth is that it is the unhealthy obsession with minimalism and having a house that looks like a show home is what puts people off having a proper separates system.
Then they're reduced to 'My soundbar sounds really good.'
No it doesn't mate, it's W#nk.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 14:34:11 GMT
How do you define 'entry level high end?' Audio Research may be High End, but many of the models they've ever made to me sound like sugary sweet warm toned processors, rather than acoustically transparent preamps. YMMV here. Never been much of a fan of the so called acoustically transparent kit I find that after a while the things starts irritating me. But that is just my preference. Take for instance so called revealing stand mount speakers, not my bag cant tolerate tinkle boxes, nasty screechy things. Been down that road not going there again. Going from B&W 805's to the Vandersteen 2CE's was for me a revelation, sold the B&W's they were third hand for the same price as the Vandersteens new. Vandersteens despite there reputation when well set up are what I would call transparent with a mid range that puts many a very costly speaker to shame, plus they have overall inner detail from top to bottom without that bloody awful mid range bump. Frankly they made the B&W's sound like Wharfedale Diamonds in comparison. Like all things this is entirely a matter of personal preference. I have hardly if ever bought new kit, in this country at least you can pick up things at a third or a quarter of the new asking price and most of the time it is less than a year old. |
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Post by dsjr on Jun 3, 2019 15:58:31 GMT
Oh dear..... What is the term High Fidelity sound quality? High fidelity (as close as possible) to the original sound as recorded to enable the listener to suspend disbelief, or High Fidelity to what we *think* is a nice sound? We've been here before, so apologies for raking it up. I used to be able to get a wonderful facsimile to the real thing if the recording was right, especially when a jazz loving pal and wife came round and we played some wonderfully recorded 50's jazz after hearing a live un-amplified jazz group (even the 1994 King Crimson RAH gig I attended and then playing Thrak at highish volume levels with a bit of bass eq, ducking the 125Hz region and increasing the 25hz level to get some pressure waves going  ). Can't do that now sadly. Makes me wonder why I post on hifi forums as in listening terms, I'm way out of it now... |
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Post by macca on Jun 3, 2019 16:50:29 GMT
Hi-fidelity is fidelity to the recording of the event not to the event itself.
So you don't need 'the right recording' for high fidelity, you can have high fidelity - or lack of it - to any recording. Which is why the 'sounds like real instruments' benchmark trotted out by so many is actually meaningless.
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Post by macca on Jun 3, 2019 16:53:28 GMT
Might as well say it 'Sounds like a real Neve 8014 console.'
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 3, 2019 20:01:40 GMT
How do you define 'entry level high end?' Audio Research may be High End, but many of the models they've ever made to me sound like sugary sweet warm toned processors, rather than acoustically transparent preamps. YMMV here. Never been much of a fan of the so called acoustically transparent kit I find that after a while the things starts irritating me. But that is just my preference. Take for instance so called revealing stand mount speakers, not my bag cant tolerate tinkle boxes, nasty screechy things. Been down that road not going there again. Going from B&W 805's to the Vandersteen 2CE's was for me a revelation, sold the B&W's they were third hand for the same price as the Vandersteens new. Vandersteens despite there reputation when well set up are what I would call transparent with a mid range that puts many a very costly speaker to shame, plus they have overall inner detail from top to bottom without that bloody awful mid range bump. Frankly they made the B&W's sound like Wharfedale Diamonds in comparison. Like all things this is entirely a matter of personal preference. I have hardly if ever bought new kit, in this country at least you can pick up things at a third or a quarter of the new asking price and most of the time it is less than a year old. Always fancied Vandersteens but it hasn’t happened yet |
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Post by antonio on Jun 4, 2019 5:09:50 GMT
Sounds like you have a nice system, stop worrying about more expensive kit. Any spare cash, the 'fast women' comment would be a good way to go.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 18:22:23 GMT
Oh dear..... What is the term High Fidelity sound quality? High fidelity (as close as possible) to the original sound as recorded to enable the listener to suspend disbelief, or High Fidelity to what we *think* is a nice sound? We've been here before, so apologies for raking it up. I used to be able to get a wonderful facsimile to the real thing if the recording was right, especially when a jazz loving pal and wife came round and we played some wonderfully recorded 50's jazz after hearing a live un-amplified jazz group (even the 1994 King Crimson RAH gig I attended and then playing Thrak at highish volume levels with a bit of bass eq, ducking the 125Hz region and increasing the 25hz level to get some pressure waves going ). Can't do that now sadly. Makes me wonder why I post on hifi forums as in listening terms, I'm way out of it now... Am so fortunate in a way, alone at home retired, the neighbours are all at work I go upstairs to the Man Cave/Music Room. Close all doors and windows. Crank up the Cornscala's till the !5 inch starts to get the chest singing, sit back and relax and forget about the kit completely. Since going down the road with high efficiency speakers, I honestly feel this is what I have been looking for. Certainly when I hear Ben Webster blowing through that compression driver with the tatrix horn which crosses over to the 15inch at 500hz I think I have come as close as affordably possible to the original sound. It grabs me emotionally, and isn't that what counts. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 4, 2019 20:12:04 GMT
Sounds like bliss.
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). Can't do that now sadly. Makes me wonder why I post on hifi forums as in listening terms, I'm way out of it now...
